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InvisibleSclorch
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Herd Manipulation
    #2550024 - 04/12/04 03:45 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

The question that has been occupying much of my time:
Is manipulation of the masses wrong?

If a good-hearted person is manipulating them for the right reasons, is it okay then? Or is the act itself wrong? Maybe I'm just making the assumption that there is a herd instinct happening. Maybe the herd is actually made up of actual thinking people who have control of their knee-jerk reaction mechanisms... and they just happen to all agree. Or maybe the diverse opinions are rounded to the nearest articulate answer available in the form of a false dilemma or an oversimplification. For example, we see this all the time:
Quote:

Do you support the war in Iraq? (check one)
(_) YES
(_) NO



Now, there is a certain amount of efficiency in such simplification... but that's the fucking problem - I think we need to slow shit down. Let's give ourselves (as a nation, a culture, a what-the-fuck-ever) enough time to think shit all the way through before making decisions.

Moving on...
If people are incapable of thinking for themselves, we are faced with another set of questions. Can they be changed? Should they be changed? If so, how? If they can't or shouldn't be changed, is it ethically viable to prey upon them? Is it even considered preying? Is this sort of elitism not the fuel for the cycle of insecurity and celebrity worship that started this rant? Is the cycle just in my imagination or is it real?

Does anything even need to be cured? Is there a magical cure? Or would a cure entail a massive, multifaceted, systemic change? Is that even feasible? Or are we going to have to just tough it out and watch Rome v2.x burn while neo-Nero plays his fiddle?

So many questions.
This is just the beginning of it.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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OfflineFrog
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Re: Herd Manipulation [Re: Sclorch]
    #2550059 - 04/12/04 03:56 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

May I assert a knee-jerk reaction to your initial post?  :grin:

Ii am one of the masses that doesn't pay attention to what is going on in the world very much.  I pick up the opinions of others, mostly.  And I apologize right here and now for being an ignoramus. 

That all being said, I would have probably checked the "maybe" box on the poll you quoted, because I've heard so much from both sides that I don't know if we should be there or not.  Thank God I am not in charge or I'd be frozen in the decision-making process.

So my tentative ruling is that yes, maybe we need someone who can manipulate the masses, if it's for the right reasons, cuz some of masses don't really look into it and don't really know what we are thinking.  :grin:  We needed to be influenced.

Why aren't I in bed?


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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Offlinethe universe
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Re: Herd Manipulation [Re: Sclorch]
    #2550091 - 04/12/04 04:05 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Look, Nietzche sais there are two classes of people. Those with slave mentality, and those with master mentality. I think this is an over generalization, but basically true. If you watch one person, you can tell wich morality they use for thier desicion making most of the time. This cannot be changed. I'm not sure if there are more slaves than masters, but it sure seems that way sometimes. My point is that the slaves need masters. Everyone thinks for themselves, but there are two basic ways of doing that. There's nothing wrong with being a slave, and there should be no guilt in being a master. It comes down to awareness of your own morality. There's a stigma attached to the word "slave", but slaves are necessary. They're not exactly slaves either. It's just a word to describe your morality. I guess I'm just trying to say that, if you can manipulate the herd, for a reason you believe in, fucking do it!


--------------------
"If you had a million years to do it in, you couldn't rub out even half the 'Fuck you' signs in the world."- J. D. Salinger


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OfflineDavid_Scape
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Re: Herd Manipulation [Re: Sclorch]
    #2550134 - 04/12/04 04:20 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Manipulation is'nt always a bad thing if you look at it in a certain way.

I think the main point here is whether you're maipulating them through deception or not.... Which eventually leads to the hollow shell of my response, that is: I don't know whether it's wrong or not. It's too morally big for me to consider without my heart exploding.

It does remind me of a graphic novel i read, where a particular bad guy mastermind geinus person, decided to try and unite the world by giving it one single emergent problem requiring union to survive through (that problem, in this case, was making the world believe it was under attack by an alien race. The way he did this was actually kind of cool. The book was called "The Watchmen".). All he had to do was kill a couple million people.

Was he justified? It was a dirty lie, but it was a lie you can respect.

Shit, let's say that Hitler actually succeeded in his plan during world war 2. Would it have been wrong if the human race was better off afterwards? Sure there'd just be one race under an ruthless dictator, but maybe he would'nt be so ruthless afterwards. Maybe, the human race would have lived the rest of it's existence in peace (if that's possible.).


--------------------
focusing
Flow
The Enneagram


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InvisibleMystical_Craven
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Re: Herd Manipulation [Re: Sclorch]
    #2550445 - 04/12/04 08:09 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

this has always been a pretty huge moral roadblock for me...and I never really have figured out where exactly I stand on this issue


on the one hand I have this whole quote unquote 'master' mentality that's telling me if someone's going to allow themselves to be 'controlled' by someone else, then it might as well be someone that's got their best intrest in mind (e.g. me) as opposed to some self-centered egotistical ass that's just gonna manipulate the fuck outta em for all the wrong reasons (get that whole mob mentality thing going and just start playin off their emotions an shit, and eventually leadin em into some nix shit they'd never even consider if they were thinking rationally about things)


but then on the other hand is the idea that this type of behavior will only breed more of the same type of behavior in others (both in the proverbial 'good' and 'bad' types of people perspectively) and allthough it's likely this sort of behavior will never purge itself completely from human existance, I still feel almost obligated to not do anything personally that would fuel such behavior or even condone it in any matter (much like how I've personally chosen not to reproduce even though I know my not having children isn't going to make any real differences as a whole)





it seems more logical to accept the fact that even if every single person on the face of the Earth dropped their own little 'sheople' part of them - that follower nature of ours would still be lying dormit within our genes just waiting to be re-discovered and re-exploited at some later date by some future generation...so the very fact that it's never really going to completely disappear simply emphasizes just how important it really is to control such a potentially hazardous humanistic quality (kinda like how it's equally neccessary to learn how to vent your anger so you don't wind up going postal on a bunch of your classmates or some shit) and looking at it from this point of view it's glaringly obvious how much of a fool you'd be to not put yourself into that sort of a position...especially when you consider the type of people that might just wind up filling that spot if you don't grab it first (and more importantly - what sort of direction they'd heard the masses in)


even so though - there's always this damned touchy-feely side of me that insists being the lesser of two evils is not the same as becomming the better man (so to speak) and that I should dedicate my time to knocking some sense into these follower types and doing everything I can to help them realize where that sort of mentality will get them...instead of just playing this sick little game I know in my heart is wrong - I should be doing everything I possibly can to make the game obsolete (e.g. a 'master' isn't going to be able to have a whole hell of a lot of power if there aren't any 'slaves' left to follow in his lead)












I suppose the big question is whether or not it's even possible to paradigm-shift everyone into 'master' mentality mode...cause if it isn't then trying to change the rules is a completely futile objective that's not gonna get you anywhere


--------------------


"Only those who risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go..." T.S. Eliot


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Herd Manipulation [Re: Mystical_Craven]
    #2550533 - 04/12/04 09:43 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Mystical_Craven said:
I suppose the big question is whether or not it's even possible to paradigm-shift everyone into 'master' mentality mode...cause if it isn't then trying to change the rules is a completely futile objective that's not gonna get you anywhere




Well basically their mentality was developed based on their experiences... if maybe they were exposed to different ways of thinking and different experiences, different emotions, that they would have ended up differently, more of a strong person or whatever.

So I think it is possible to shift people... you just have to make up for those experiences that they didn't get, that understanding that they don't yet have. I don't think most of them would be entirely unreachable.... but it depends on the individual person. No general approach to shifting people is going to work because it is a general approach (education and how it is brought to kids is probably the most responsible for the slave mentality) that got them where they are in the first place.

Living by example is by far the first thing. How people are going to take a free spirit when they encounter them is going to vary on themselves... sometimes they fear them and ridicule them, etc. etc... but it is possible to reach a lot of people just by showing them that there are free people around that enjoy life and think for themselves.

It is all about networking... spread the good vibes and make people think! Ask questions! Suggest thoughts! I've seen my grandpa talking with people at Wal-Mart while they checked him out, asking questions about their job and what they thought about this and that.... I guess a good approach is to take people that are in the slave mentality and interact with them in a way that doesn't fit in the slave mentality. "What do you think..?" is a good one. :grin:

We are all the same, just in different degrees of understanding. We all interact and we can change things for the better.  :laugh:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Invisiblepsyka
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Re: Herd Manipulation [Re: Sclorch]
    #2550560 - 04/12/04 09:59 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

We need government. If people were mindful enough to govern themselves we wouldnt have it in the first place.

Government was birthed to shape ignorance. Now its out of control. Theres so many people now that its virtually impossible to [unnaturally] keep order. Things are either going to get better or they're going to get a lot worse and then get better. Its going to be an interesting millennium, either way :smile:.


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.



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Invisibletruekimbo2
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Re: Herd Manipulation [Re: psyka]
    #2550680 - 04/12/04 11:06 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

in my own life, i realised that the root of my desire to manipulate poeple, for better or worse, was based on things i wanted or things i wanted do FOR MYSELF. when i have everything i want/need the personal tendency is to stop worrying about others and just relax and enjoy whats going on, or go off and enjoy alone time.

tis rare the manipulator that has the desire to manipulate based on higher orders without personal crap coming into play.


--------------------
You can check the last post in my journal for contact info.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Herd Manipulation [Re: Sclorch]
    #2550963 - 04/12/04 01:08 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

My answer is:

Do the best you can to free yourself from the herd mentality. ("Thinking allowed!")
Place NO ONE before yourself. There are no experts (as the Iraqi mess clearly and painfully demonstrates yet again.) Do not be afraid to go against the pack if it is what you truly believe. ("To thine own self be true.") I would rather be ostracized and authentic, than accepted and a fake.

If you are the leader type, ask yourself why you wish to master another when you have not mastered yourself.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Herd Manipulation [Re: Sclorch]
    #2550966 - 04/12/04 01:09 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

I see these questions plague you people as well...

So, is there really an answer to this predicament?


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Herd Manipulation [Re: Swami]
    #2550996 - 04/12/04 01:17 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
My answer is:

Do the best you can to free yourself from the herd mentality. ("Thinking allowed!")
Place NO ONE before yourself. There are no experts (as the Iraqi mess clearly and painfully demonstrates yet again.) Do not be afraid to go against the pack if it is what you truly believe. ("To thine own self be true.") I would rather be ostracized and authentic, than accepted and a fake.

If you are the leader type, ask yourself why you wish to master another when you have not mastered yourself.



Okay, how's this...
I feel I'm the leader type, BUT I don't want to tell others what to do. I want them to be able to think for themselves and not do stupid shit. Does this desire qualify as "wishing to master another"? I suppose my point is this: if (assuming it is possible to change people in this manner) I can temporarily be master and I get a threshold number of people to master themselves, am I still subverting the master/slave paradigm altogether?

The follow-up questions are included in the starter post.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Herd Manipulation [Re: Swami]
    #2551088 - 04/12/04 01:40 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
Place NO ONE before yourself. There are no experts (as the Iraqi mess clearly and painfully demonstrates yet again.) Do not be afraid to go against the pack if it is what you truly believe. ("To thine own self be true.") I would rather be ostracized and authentic, than accepted and a fake.




:smirk:

I truly believe that I am in contact with aliens subconsciously. The experts dismiss it but yet I experience it and truly believe that it is happening.




:yesnod:




So, tell me Swami.... hearing voices yet?  :laugh:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Herd Manipulation [Re: Sclorch]
    #2551094 - 04/12/04 01:41 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

I feel I'm the leader type, BUT I don't want to tell others what to do. I want them to be able to think for themselves and not do stupid shit. Does this desire qualify as "wishing to master another"?

As you know this is my stance, I may be too close to give an unbiased answer, but will attempt to anyway.

I have ZERO need to have followers, to be held up as a sage or one with the answers. A desire to empower others to stand alone cannot be compared with the desire to be worshipped and obeyed.

Telling someone to consider the alternatives, to think rationally and to take no teaching or story (inlcuding yours!) at face value does not equate to mastering another. Let's take a non-touchy subject. A 14 year-old comes on this board and says "I really want to do datura, what do you think?" A member points to some references such as Erowid and The Lyceaum where he can do his own research. There is no ego behind that response is there?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Herd Manipulation [Re: Swami]
    #2551303 - 04/12/04 02:43 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

I completely agree with you, but here you're obviously speaking of a more personal approach to teaching others to think for themselves. And I have no problem with this. But I suppose one of the fundamental questions of this particular thought-web is "Is this kind of transformation of people possible on a mass level?" I mean, Hitler got thousands of people to step in line and subscribe to bullshit... why can't I get just as many to transcend the bullshit?


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Herd Manipulation [Re: Sclorch]
    #2551313 - 04/12/04 02:45 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

I mean, Hitler got thousands of people to step in line and subscribe to bullshit... why can't I get just as many to transcend the bullshit?



What's in it for them? Christians get eternal salvation for believing in bullshit. Nazis got a German empire for believing in bullshit. What benefits will people get from transcending the bullshit?


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Herd Manipulation [Re: silversoul7]
    #2551370 - 04/12/04 03:09 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Hey... that's another good question in the web.

What ARE the benefits that people will get after transcending the bullshit?


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Herd Manipulation [Re: Sclorch]
    #2551439 - 04/12/04 03:32 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

The answer is easy:

Following the herd is the path of least resistance. No responsibility nor deep thought is required, just a nodding of the head and you are one of the group.  :yesnod:


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Herd Manipulation [Re: Sclorch]
    #2551608 - 04/12/04 04:10 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Education is key.

I don't think the masses should be manipulated into thinking certain things or taking certain actions. There is too much room for things to go horibly wrong, even if the best of intentions are at the top.

Now, I think we can be fairly certain that in our society the best of intentions are not at the top. In our case, then, manipulation is serving some purpose other than the greater good. A good example, I think, of why manipulation is not right. :wink:


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: Herd Manipulation [Re: trendal]
    #2551647 - 04/12/04 04:19 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

trendal said:
Education is key.



Much of what passes for education is actually indoctrination. An emphasis on developing critical thinking skills is the particular kind of education that I think is needed.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

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Re: Herd Manipulation [Re: Evolving]
    #2551674 - 04/12/04 04:24 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Evolving said:
Quote:

trendal said:
Education is key.



Much of what passes for education is actually indoctrination. An emphasis on developing critical thinking skills is the particular kind of education that I think is needed.



*Ding Ding Ding*
Yeah... but who is to teach it? I still cannot name one teacher that had an ardent interest or even the ability to get me to think critically. I learned it on my own from dead masters.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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