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Social safety nets and income redistribution
    #22097977 -

Hello.  Some people believe that income redistribution is immoral and unjust, and should not be allowed under any circumstances.  For example, when the government takes the taxes that people pay, and give some of them to either the poor, the sick, or the disabled.  Detractors of this policy believe that it is moral to help others, but immoral for governments to force people to help.  They do not believe in having any sort of social safety nets, and that when someone experiences bad luck or when tragedy strikes, he/she should rely on friends, family, and private charity.

I think it is a bit extreme. Also, I am concerned about the possibility that this person might not be able to find friends, family, or charity to help him/or her.  Consider the case of a bum who has no friend, family, and cannot find charity to help him.  And one day he gets very ill.  Should we just watch him die on the street without help?  No.  I believe should this happen, the government should step in, and use the tax payers's money to help this person.  Is this income redistribution, too?  Yes.  But if it is, then maybe income redistribution is not such a big deal in some circumstances.

Where do you stand on this issue?

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Re: Social safety nets and income redistribution [Re: WAN]
    #22098097 -

You're stance on this issue actually seems quite rational, so let me ask you, Do you think we need more or less of this type of income redistribution in America?


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http://www.countdowntotrump.com




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Re: Social safety nets and income redistribution [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #22098102 -

hostileuniverse said:
You're stance on this issue actually seems quite rational, so let me ask you, Do you think we need more or less of this type of income redistribution in America?


I haven't quite thought about that.  All I know is that a little bit of income redistribution is beneficial and required, but we as a society must put our heads together and figure out how much is the right amount.

I am all for the government stepping in to help the sick, the disabled, and those who got struck by tragedies.  I am against giving money to people who are just lazy (aka, the welfare queens).

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Re: Social safety nets and income redistribution [Re: WAN]
    #22098113 -

WAN said:
hostileuniverse said:
You're stance on this issue actually seems quite rational, so let me ask you, Do you think we need more or less of this type of income redistribution in America?


I haven't quite thought about that.  All I know is that a little bit of income redistribution is beneficial and required, but we as a society must put our heads together and figure out how much is the right amount.

I am all for the government stepping in to help the sick, the disabled, and those who got struck by tragedies.  I am against giving money to people who are just lazy (aka, the welfare queens).


So then you're answer should be simple, we obviously need less, much less of this type of redistribution. There is plenty of people out there are able to work and choose not to because they know govt will support them.

This is why private charities do a better job of allocating funds, they actually work with the poor to help them, govt just gives it to anyone...


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http://www.countdowntotrump.com




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Re: Social safety nets and income redistribution [Re: WAN]
    #22098122 -

The wealthy use the legal system, political system and their various legal entities to push their own form of wealth "re-distribution" don't they?  I mean how can anyone make an ethical argument that one human in a company should be paid $9 an hour and another human in that same company makes $3,000 an hour?  Thats feels a lot like very, very aggressive wealth distribution.

Taxes and social safety nets are another form.  If we want a safe and sane civilized society, the notion that we can have an ever growing income and wealth gap is insane.  What's best for all of us is a big fat prosperous middle class.  That isn't going to happen in 5% of the population controls and owns 75% of the assets and wealth.


--------------------
“Order is needed by the ignorant but it takes a genius to master chaos.”
― Einstein


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Re: Social safety nets and income redistribution [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #22098149 -

hostileuniverse said:
WAN said:
I haven't quite thought about that.  All I know is that a little bit of income redistribution is beneficial and required, but we as a society must put our heads together and figure out how much is the right amount.

I am all for the government stepping in to help the sick, the disabled, and those who got struck by tragedies.  I am against giving money to people who are just lazy (aka, the welfare queens).


So then you're answer should be simple, we obviously need less, much less of this type of redistribution. There is plenty of people out there are able to work and choose not to because they know govt will support them.


I agree that we should try to redistribute income as little as possible, but you must agree with me that at least "a little bit" of it is required.  We just need to figure out how much.

Quote:
This is why private charities do a better job of allocating funds, they actually work with the poor to help them, govt just gives it to anyone...


I dont know about your country, but here in Canada, if you are disabled and you want to apply for government assistance, you have to go to a physician and have a form filled out.  It's not super complicated but it's not exactly "easy" either.  You have to be genuinely disabled and the doctor has to sign off on it before you get approved for benefits.

As for welfare queens, I say we should cut all support to them.  If you are able-bodied and not afflicted with any mental illnesses, you need to work. But I am pretty sure we are in agreement on this.

Edited by WAN (08/16/15 10:02 AM)

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Re: Social safety nets and income redistribution [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #22098162 -

hostileuniverse said:
This is why private charities do a better job of allocating funds, they actually work with the poor to help them, govt just gives it to anyone...


Name one developed nation where charities are able to fill all the needs created by poverty, unemployment and financial hardship?

Charities are FANTASTIC and are often administrated efficiently and very effectively, but they address less than 10% of the need, when it's really examined.


--------------------
“Order is needed by the ignorant but it takes a genius to master chaos.”
― Einstein


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Re: Social safety nets and income redistribution [Re: KauaiOrca]
    #22098178 -

I'd like to see our country re-think the role of community colleges, especially in urban areas. They could become the key hub through which government assistance is distributed.  For instance, if a single woman has two kids and gets a steady support check from the government, why not make that support dependent on her attending classes at the community college and committing 20 hours a week of volunteering at a child day care center to help other single moms that are in class?  The community college could also be where a local health clinic is run/located to provide basic health services for the poor.  What we need is a way to make sure that government assistance is attached to some form of self improvement program/plan ... education, volunteering, working ...

The system of sitting at home with all the freedoms of a taxpayer while not working and just waiting for a check in the mail when you're healthy and able to work has got to change.


--------------------
“Order is needed by the ignorant but it takes a genius to master chaos.”
― Einstein


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Re: Social safety nets and income redistribution [Re: KauaiOrca]
    #22098237 -

Quote:
[
The system of sitting at home with all the freedoms of a taxpayer while not working and just waiting for a check in the mail when you're healthy and able to work has got to change./quote]

Yet I seem to recall a recent post where you condemned Rand Paul because he would cut benefits to these people...

Quote:
Name one developed nation where charities are able to fill all the needs created by poverty, unemployment and financial hardship?




Name one developed nation where the govt does...

Quote:
As for welfare queens, I say we should cut all support to them.  If you are able-bodied and not afflicted with any mental illnesses, you need to work. But I am pretty sure we are in agreement on this.


Yes sir we are

Quote:
I dont know about your country, but here in Canada, if you are disabled and you want to apply for government assistance, you have to go to a physician and have a form filled out.  It's not super complicated but it's not exactly "easy" either.  You have to be genuinely disabled and the doctor has to sign off on it before you get approved for benefits.




Well, here in good ol USA it's easier than it should be, plus they (liberals) are constantly redefining what is considered "disabled" polluting the system with people who could work but have some minor ailment... Making it all the easier to abuse the system, I personally know many people who refuse to vote other than democrat for fear of having their benefits cuts... It's disgusting...


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http://www.countdowntotrump.com




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Re: Social safety nets and income redistribution [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #22098250 -

hostileuniverse said:
Yet I seem to recall a recent post where you condemned Rand Paul because he would cut benefits to these people...

Quote:
I challenge you to find that quote as Rand Paul is my favorite candidate on the GOP side. 

What I might have said is that the GOP finds it increasingly difficult to win Presidential elections when their economic platform consists of tax cuts for the wealthy, reducing regulations for banks and big cuts to social services. 

That has  nothing to do with whether I agree or disagree with the GOP.  Simply an observation on what drives election results.  I'm more interested in seeing things they way they really are than party pushing or insisting on my ideology.


--------------------
“Order is needed by the ignorant but it takes a genius to master chaos.”
― Einstein


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Re: Social safety nets and income redistribution [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #22098268 -

hostileuniverse said:
Quote:
[
The system of sitting at home with all the freedoms of a taxpayer while not working and just waiting for a check in the mail when you're healthy and able to work has got to change./quote]

Yet I seem to recall a recent post where you condemned Rand Paul because he would cut benefits to these people...

Quote:
Name one developed nation where charities are able to fill all the needs created by poverty, unemployment and financial hardship?




Name one developed nation where the govt does...

.


There are many nations (France, Sweden, Norway, Canada, etc.) where government programs play a much, much bigger role in addressing the needs of the poorest, disabled, elderly, etc. than charities.  Is this a serious question?


--------------------
“Order is needed by the ignorant but it takes a genius to master chaos.”
― Einstein


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Re: Social safety nets and income redistribution [Re: KauaiOrca]
    #22098454 -

Quote:
Pro life, pro cuts in entitlements, pro cuts in social spending, pro cuts in infrastructure, pro cuts in education, pro cuts in foreign aid, pro cuts to the United Nations, pro cuts in environmental restrictions ...

That's how you lose liberals.


There's your quote Orca, and btw, liberals aren't voting GOP anyway...

Quote:
There are many nations (France, Sweden, Norway, Canada, etc.) where government programs play a much, much bigger role in addressing the needs of the poorest, disabled, elderly, etc. than charities.  Is this a serious question?


There no poor in those countries? No suffering? That's laughable...


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http://www.countdowntotrump.com




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Re: Social safety nets and income redistribution [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #22098476 -

hostileuniverse said:
Quote:
Pro life, pro cuts in entitlements, pro cuts in social spending, pro cuts in infrastructure, pro cuts in education, pro cuts in foreign aid, pro cuts to the United Nations, pro cuts in environmental restrictions ...

That's how you lose liberals.


There's your quote Orca, and btw, liberals aren't voting GOP anyway...




Seriously, bud, if you call that quote a "condemnation of Rand Paul" you are stretching like Gumby.  I'm not even criticizing anyone, simply making an observation that it's hard to get liberals to vote with you if you push those issues. 

The fact is, I like Rand Paul quite a bit, so your accusation is total bullshit.


--------------------
“Order is needed by the ignorant but it takes a genius to master chaos.”
― Einstein


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Re: Social safety nets and income redistribution [Re: KauaiOrca]
    #22098582 -

Quote:
The fact is, I like Rand Paul quite a bit...


Really? Can I ask why?


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http://www.countdowntotrump.com




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Re: Social safety nets and income redistribution [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #22098613 -

hostileuniverse said:
Quote:
The fact is, I like Rand Paul quite a bit...


Really? Can I ask why?


1. The only candidate that's serious about dialing back the domestic surveillance wattage. 
2. He's very reluctant to get us into another big ground war
3. Will reduce the amount of trouble causing foreign aid we give
4. Is nowhere near as enamored with Israel as other candidates
5. Will bring more transparency to the FED and our monetary policy
6. Is serious about balancing the budget
7. Will do something to bring the insane war on drugs down a few notches

For starters ....


--------------------
“Order is needed by the ignorant but it takes a genius to master chaos.”
― Einstein


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Re: Social safety nets and income redistribution [Re: KauaiOrca]
    #22100303 -

We have the largest wealth and income inequality in 80 years, the redistribution has already occurred, the top 1/1000 and 1/10,000 of 1% grabbed it.

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Re: Social safety nets and income redistribution [Re: qman]
    #22100350 -

qman said:
We have the largest wealth and income inequality in 80 years, the redistribution has already occurred, the top 1/1000 and 1/10,000 of 1% grabbed it.


Exactly.


--------------------
“Order is needed by the ignorant but it takes a genius to master chaos.”
― Einstein


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Re: Social safety nets and income redistribution [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #22100421 -

hostileuniverse said:
There no poor in those countries? No suffering? That's laughable...


Nowhere near the violence, prison population %'s, wealth gap or institutional poverty that you see in the US.


--------------------
“Order is needed by the ignorant but it takes a genius to master chaos.”
― Einstein


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Re: Social safety nets and income redistribution [Re: KauaiOrca] * 1
    #22100452 -

KauaiOrca said:
hostileuniverse said:
There no poor in those countries? No suffering? That's laughable...


Nowhere near the violence, prison population %'s, wealth gap or institutional poverty that you see in the US.


One of the key differences is they are mainly homogeneous, that's the key to their socialism success. This country and its "cultural diversity" could never pull it off.

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Re: Social safety nets and income redistribution [Re: WAN]
    #22102161 -

WAN said:
Hello.  Some people believe that income redistribution is immoral and unjust, and should not be allowed under any circumstances.  For example, when the government takes the taxes that people pay, and give some of them to either the poor, the sick, or the disabled.  Detractors of this policy believe that it is moral to help others, but immoral for governments to force people to help.  They do not believe in having any sort of social safety nets, and that when someone experiences bad luck or when tragedy strikes, he/she should rely on friends, family, and private charity.

I think it is a bit extreme. Also, I am concerned about the possibility that this person might not be able to find friends, family, or charity to help him/or her.  Consider the case of a bum who has no friend, family, and cannot find charity to help him.  And one day he gets very ill.  Should we just watch him die on the street without help?  No.  I believe should this happen, the government should step in, and use the tax payers's money to help this person.  Is this income redistribution, too?  Yes.  But if it is, then maybe income redistribution is not such a big deal in some circumstances.

Where do you stand on this issue?


People that dont support a safety net are pretty fucking stupid.

Would you rather have poor people with sufficient money to rent a place or would you rather have the poor in the streets and stealing? Can you imagine if 50% of the US were suddenly unable to pay rent and buy food to live? Were talking basic needs here. When starving people are aware that there is food around them, do you think they'll just sit around and not go and take it? They are not gonna let themselves die without a fight.

Plus, you have to be fucking heartless. Not giving a single shit about anyone else but you and your shitty little family.. We spent thousands of years living that way and we finally got where we are at  and the dude wants to go back in the stone age. Look at Africa. They don't have safety nets. Do they look happy?

Of course. There are limits! You can't just give everything away either. The state shouldn't do things that a man could and should do for himself. The goal is to achieve the balance between caring too much and not giving a shit (CANADA)


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