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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: Stonehenge]
    #21955938 -

Stonehenge said:
Why do so many people seem absolutely sure iran is the bad guy in the world? SA supports terrorism, so does turkey, Russia, china, and others. i do not see a shred of evidence that iran is some big threat to the world. We do nothing about n korea, our hypocrisy is plain to see. We are against iran because isreal told us to be and the media they control told us this big story. i see most people have eaten it up and adopted the story line. Zappa i can see since he hates everyone over there but the rest of you?


We are essentially "against" them because they threw us out with the Shah back in 1979 and they are extremely angry that we helped Saddam acquire the chemical weapons that Saddam used against them in the Iran / Iraq war.

Interestingly, in polling, less than 2% of Americans realize that Reagan helped Saddam acquire huge supplies of chemicals WMD's that were then used against Iran.  Iran is very, very bitter about that and that is, to a large extent, why they call us the great satan.


--------------------
“Order is needed by the ignorant but it takes a genius to master chaos.”
― Einstein


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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: KauaiOrca]
    #21955976 -

>We are essentially "against" them because they threw us out with the Shah back in 1979 and they are extremely angry that we helped Saddam acquire the chemical weapons that Saddam used against them in the Iran / Iraq war.

So we are against them because we committed great crimes against them in the past and they remember that? You could say that about most of the world. i see no reason for us to try to destroy or hurt them. Why compound the offense?


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: Stonehenge]
    #21956278 -

Stonehenge said:
>We are essentially "against" them because they threw us out with the Shah back in 1979 and they are extremely angry that we helped Saddam acquire the chemical weapons that Saddam used against them in the Iran / Iraq war.

So we are against them because we committed great crimes against them in the past and they remember that? You could say that about most of the world. i see no reason for us to try to destroy or hurt them. Why compound the offense?


Sums it up nicely.  Agree 100%.


--------------------
“Order is needed by the ignorant but it takes a genius to master chaos.”
― Einstein


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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #21956420 -

The Ecstatic said:
BoldAsLove said:
The Ecstatic said:
China and Russia aren't getting nuked by anyone anytime soon, and neither is the US.

We're playing big brother for Israel, who ironically has illegal nukes, with Iran.

Pakistan is a much bigger threat, but nobody talks about the potential for a nuclear war between them and India. Or selling nukes to Saudi Arabia.

No, let's worry about the nation that hasn't invaded anybody since the 1800s.


Israel, India, and Pakistan all have nuclear weapons and never signed the NPT. How do you propose we take their nuclear weapons away from them?


I'm not necessarily saying we should.

But worrying about hypothetical nukes being used to solve a hypothetical problem by a nation with virtually zero history of aggression, instead of actual threats by actual nations with actual nukes, is stupidity.


I agree, we have far larger problems. But that doesn't mean we should ignore the possibility of more nuclear weapons in the Middle East.


--------------------
DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor :alientransform: and Ferdinand :cigar:, the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.

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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: Stonehenge]
    #21956436 -

Stonehenge said:
Why do so many people seem absolutely sure iran is the bad guy in the world? SA supports terrorism, so does turkey, Russia, china, and others. i do not see a shred of evidence that iran is some big threat to the world. We do nothing about n korea, our hypocrisy is plain to see. We are against iran because isreal told us to be and the media they control told us this big story. i see most people have eaten it up and adopted the story line. Zappa i can see since he hates everyone over there but the rest of you?


I'm not against Iran, nor do I consider them some bad guy. I am, however, against them having a nuclear weapon. There's a big difference.


--------------------
DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor :alientransform: and Ferdinand :cigar:, the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.

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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: BoldAsLove]
    #21956490 -

>I'm not against Iran, nor do I consider them some bad guy. I am, however, against them having a nuclear weapon. There's a big difference.

I'm against them having nukes too. I'm against isreal, and other countries having them. There is a big difference between being against something and being willing to hurt and kill civilians to achieve what you want. Why no talk about n korea? No talk about stopping our support of genocidal countries?


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: BoldAsLove]
    #21956507 -

BoldAsLove said:
Stonehenge said:
Why do so many people seem absolutely sure iran is the bad guy in the world? SA supports terrorism, so does turkey, Russia, china, and others. i do not see a shred of evidence that iran is some big threat to the world. We do nothing about n korea, our hypocrisy is plain to see. We are against iran because isreal told us to be and the media they control told us this big story. i see most people have eaten it up and adopted the story line. Zappa i can see since he hates everyone over there but the rest of you?


I'm not against Iran, nor do I consider them some bad guy. I am, however, against them having a nuclear weapon. There's a big difference.


But you're OK with Israel have a nuclear weapon despite it being "destabilizing" for the region? Or what done is done is just fine, just no more after Israel?  Sounds like a biased approach or maybe Israel should be subjected to the same sanctions until disarmament.

Edited by qman (07/17/15 04:43 PM)

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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: BoldAsLove]
    #21956522 -

BoldAsLove said:
The Ecstatic said:
BoldAsLove said:
The Ecstatic said:
China and Russia aren't getting nuked by anyone anytime soon, and neither is the US.

We're playing big brother for Israel, who ironically has illegal nukes, with Iran.

Pakistan is a much bigger threat, but nobody talks about the potential for a nuclear war between them and India. Or selling nukes to Saudi Arabia.

No, let's worry about the nation that hasn't invaded anybody since the 1800s.


Israel, India, and Pakistan all have nuclear weapons and never signed the NPT. How do you propose we take their nuclear weapons away from them?


I'm not necessarily saying we should.

But worrying about hypothetical nukes being used to solve a hypothetical problem by a nation with virtually zero history of aggression, instead of actual threats by actual nations with actual nukes, is stupidity.


I agree, we have far larger problems. But that doesn't mean we should ignore the possibility of more nuclear weapons in the Middle East.


Which is why I approve of the diplomatic solution with Iran.


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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #21956730 -

Israel, having nukes, has been destabilizing on the region for decades.


--------------------
“Order is needed by the ignorant but it takes a genius to master chaos.”
― Einstein


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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: Stonehenge]
    #21957262 -

Stonehenge said:
Good points, frock, and you too, KO. Probably a large part of the reason iran is singled out has to do with oil and gas production and the desire to keep prices up. That and isreali hatred toward iran.


The fucking Saudis hate them more than anybody.  They are scummy whack jobs  We should have blown the mullahs to bits when they invaded our embassy when the cunt Carter was president.  They are scumbags.  The Saudis aint much better but their government knows what side the bread is buttered on.  We don't need either one of them.  Europe does but we don't.


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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21957307 -

So do you hate arab jews just as much as regular arabs or a little less?


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: Stonehenge]
    #21957323 -

What is it with you and the Arabs?  Is your boyfriend an Arab?  Aren't Arab Jews regular Arabs?


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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21957334 -

Ah so you hate all arabs even if they are jews? What about brown jews, do you hate them?


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755

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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21959456 -

zappaisgod said:
Stonehenge said:
Good points, frock, and you too, KO. Probably a large part of the reason iran is singled out has to do with oil and gas production and the desire to keep prices up. That and isreali hatred toward iran.


The fucking Saudis hate them more than anybody.  They are scummy whack jobs  We should have blown the mullahs to bits when they invaded our embassy when the cunt Carter was president.  They are scumbags.  The Saudis aint much better but their government knows what side the bread is buttered on.  We don't need either one of them.  Europe does but we don't.


I'm sure that embassy storming wasn't at all fomented by our blatant coup to protect oil interests.


--------------------

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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: Stonehenge]
    #21959626 -

Stonehenge said:
>I'm not against Iran, nor do I consider them some bad guy. I am, however, against them having a nuclear weapon. There's a big difference.

I'm against them having nukes too. I'm against isreal, and other countries having them. There is a big difference between being against something and being willing to hurt and kill civilians to achieve what you want. Why no talk about n korea? No talk about stopping our support of genocidal countries?


I didn't talk about it because this thread is about Iran. Not about North Korea. I, as well, am against Israel having nukes and am against military force to prevent Iran from having a weapon.


--------------------
DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor :alientransform: and Ferdinand :cigar:, the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.

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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: qman]
    #21959637 -

qman said:
BoldAsLove said:
Stonehenge said:
Why do so many people seem absolutely sure iran is the bad guy in the world? SA supports terrorism, so does turkey, Russia, china, and others. i do not see a shred of evidence that iran is some big threat to the world. We do nothing about n korea, our hypocrisy is plain to see. We are against iran because isreal told us to be and the media they control told us this big story. i see most people have eaten it up and adopted the story line. Zappa i can see since he hates everyone over there but the rest of you?


I'm not against Iran, nor do I consider them some bad guy. I am, however, against them having a nuclear weapon. There's a big difference.


But you're OK with Israel have a nuclear weapon despite it being "destabilizing" for the region? Or what done is done is just fine, just no more after Israel?  Sounds like a biased approach or maybe Israel should be subjected to the same sanctions until disarmament.


You're putting words into my mouth. I'm against Israel having nuclear weapons as well. I'm against nuclear weapons in general. Its just going to be harder to get Israel to give up their nukes because they already have them and they never signed the NPT. Plus, we need at least one good ally in the region. We choose Israel a long time ago, and although they have a troubling history of human rights abuses, you can't deny that they are a very strong ally to have. Whether or not they should be our ally is up for debate though.


--------------------
DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor :alientransform: and Ferdinand :cigar:, the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.

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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: BoldAsLove]
    #21959812 -

BoldAsLove said:
qman said:
BoldAsLove said:
Stonehenge said:
Why do so many people seem absolutely sure iran is the bad guy in the world? SA supports terrorism, so does turkey, Russia, china, and others. i do not see a shred of evidence that iran is some big threat to the world. We do nothing about n korea, our hypocrisy is plain to see. We are against iran because isreal told us to be and the media they control told us this big story. i see most people have eaten it up and adopted the story line. Zappa i can see since he hates everyone over there but the rest of you?


I'm not against Iran, nor do I consider them some bad guy. I am, however, against them having a nuclear weapon. There's a big difference.


But you're OK with Israel have a nuclear weapon despite it being "destabilizing" for the region? Or what done is done is just fine, just no more after Israel?  Sounds like a biased approach or maybe Israel should be subjected to the same sanctions until disarmament.


You're putting words into my mouth. I'm against Israel having nuclear weapons as well. I'm against nuclear weapons in general. Its just going to be harder to get Israel to give up their nukes because they already have them and they never signed the NPT. Plus, we need at least one good ally in the region. We choose Israel a long time ago, and although they have a troubling history of human rights abuses, you can't deny that they are a very strong ally to have. Whether or not they should be our ally is up for debate though.


So you're not against the global community using the same economic sanctions against Israel as with Iran?  The goal is for no one in the Middle East to have nuclear weapons, so one must remain consistent in policy.

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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: qman]
    #21959824 -

qman said:
So you're not against the global community using the same economic sanctions against Israel as with Iran?  The goal is for no one in the Middle East to have nuclear weapons, so one must remain consistent in policy.


THe global community has shown absolutely no appetite at all to pressure Israel on their Nuclear weapons.  NONE.  It isn't going to happen. 

Israel gets a pass on a lot of things because the global community sees them as the most civilized nation in the region.


--------------------
“Order is needed by the ignorant but it takes a genius to master chaos.”
― Einstein


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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: KauaiOrca]
    #21959841 -

KauaiOrca said:
qman said:
So you're not against the global community using the same economic sanctions against Israel as with Iran?  The goal is for no one in the Middle East to have nuclear weapons, so one must remain consistent in policy.


THe global community has shown absolutely no appetite at all to pressure Israel on their Nuclear weapons.  NONE.  It isn't going to happen. 

Israel gets a pass on a lot of things because the global community sees them as the most civilized nation in the region.


So the goal isn't about keeping the Middle East free of nuclear weapons, the goal is to keep EVERYONE but Israel free of nuclear weapons!!

I'm just trying to show Bold how inconsistent his reasoning is trying to potentially disarm Iran.

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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: KauaiOrca]
    #21959876 -

>Israel gets a pass on a lot of things because the global community sees them as the most civilized nation in the region.

They get a pass because the media says they are civilized and usa is forced to support them. You don't think the other countries in the region want isreal disarmed? Most countries do.

qman
>So the goal isn't about keeping the Middle East free of nuclear weapons, the goal is to keep EVERYONE but Israel free of nuclear weapons!!

Exactly. All the sheep go along with that false reasoning because they have been told this by the media all their life.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755

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