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OfflinePed
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On Terrorism and the War Against it
    #4379315 - 07/07/05 12:25 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

>> Will everyone believe the war on terrorism isn't just a conspiracy when European cities are bombed? (Taken from the London Bombings thread)


The war on terrorism isn't just a conspiracy. However, neither is it just a campaign for national security, or for freedom and democracy. I felt this discussion deserved it's own thread.

Many people speak in enormous extremes when discussing the idea of conspiracy behind terrorism and the war on terrorism. Some suggest incredible ideas, such as the idea that World Trade Centre was intentionally weakend with American-set bombs to create a fantastic display as part of an elaborate ruse used to justify interference into the affairs of other nations and in the private lives of American citizens.

Many others retort with extreme devotion to their nation and the words which come over the presidential pulpit, calling ludicrous those who should doubt the intent behind the actions of their democratically elected government. Some of these individuals call for the use of even greater force in the Middle East, to "root out" once and for all the terrorists who did such damage to America on September 11th and in other incidents.

A more balanced, objective perspective sees that the war on terrorism is a legitimate campaign with a legitimate cause which is used to veil the illegitimate and definitely unethical intrusion into other nation's affairs for the purpose of furthering the dominating agenda of America and it's closest allies. That is clear.

Even if the war on terrorism was not being used to distract the common person from the real objective behind actions taken in it's name, the war on terrorism would still be an entirely ridiculous campaign. Attacking and removing the leaders of terrorist organizations does not address the root cause of terrorism. So long as the root cause of terrorism is left unaddressed, other leaders will appear to replace those who are removed by American efforts. Without addressing it's root cause, terrorism will always exist.

The root cause of terrorism is the illegitamate and definitely unethical intrusion into other nation's affairs for the purpose of futhering the dominating agenda of America and it's closest allies. The war on terrorism has been, since it's first successful campaigns, contributive to terrorism's root cause. Regardless of whether or not it's true that the intent of America's coalition is compassionate, to install democracy in the middle east and loosen the grip of totalitarianism in the region, the war on terrorism only contributes to this and other related problems.

Terrorism itself has been a foolish endeavour. In attempting to dissuade impinging nations from continuing their interference in the political and cultural affairs of sovreign nations, these terrorist leaders have only succeeded in granting those impinging nations an easy excuse to ramp up their efforts. They have only invited more intrusion.

And so it will ping-pong back and forth like this until one group or the other finally decides to walk away from the table. Civilian casualties in Iraq will invite bus-bombs in London, which may invite more aggressive behaviour toward Iran or another Middle Eastern country, which may invite subway sabotage in New Jersey, on and on like this for an indeterminable period of time, all of it tangled up in an indecipherable myriad of lies and half truths designed to harness public opinion and use it like a sail, and all of it hinging on the pride, the selfishness, and the anger of a very small group of people on either side of the conflict.


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: On Terrorism and the War Against it [Re: Ped]
    #4379324 - 07/07/05 12:27 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

I think it's effectiveness is a bit greater than you think?

Before the War on Terror was started: 9/11

After: Nothing as of now.


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Invisiblelooner2
ABBA fan

Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 3,849
Re: On Terrorism and the War Against it [Re: Ped]
    #4379333 - 07/07/05 12:30 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Ped said:
A more balanced, objective perspective sees that the war on terrorism is a legitimate campaign with a legitimate cause which is used to veil the illegitimate and definitely unethical intrusion into other nation's affairs for the purpose of furthering the dominating agenda of America and it's closest allies. That is clear.




The objective of the war on terrorism is to kill terrorists and those who support terrorists. Everyone knows the realities of what our country does, intrusive or not, it doesn't take away from the fact that those who kill our citizens for any reason don't deserve life nor the waste of time understanding their purpose.


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Invisiblelooner2
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Registered: 06/20/04
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Re: On Terrorism and the War Against it [Re: Ped]
    #4379368 - 07/07/05 12:42 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Ped said:
Attacking and removing the leaders of terrorist organizations does not address the root cause of terrorism. So long as the root cause of terrorism is left unaddressed, other leaders will appear to replace those who are removed by American efforts. Without addressing it's root cause, terrorism will always exist.

The root cause of terrorism is the illegitamate and definitely unethical intrusion into other nation's affairs for the purpose of futhering the dominating agenda of America and it's closest allies. The war on terrorism has been, since it's first successful campaigns, contributive to terrorism's root cause. Regardless of whether or not it's true that the intent of America's coalition is compassionate, to install democracy in the middle east and loosen the grip of totalitarianism in the region, the war on terrorism only contributes to this and other related problems.

Terrorism itself has been a foolish endeavour. In attempting to dissuade impinging nations from continuing their interference in the political and cultural affairs of sovreign nations, these terrorist leaders have only succeeded in granting those impinging nations an easy excuse to ramp up their efforts. They have only invited more intrusion.





Oh goodness, it gets better!

Killing the terrorists is only thing we can do to them. To give them the benefit of understanding is accepting the killing of innocent people as a means of gaining political power. If you want to stay consistent, change your last paragraph from,

Terrorism itself has been a foolish endeavour.

to: Terrorism itself is very effective, and by listening to their demands and idealogy we can further succumb to their every whim in the name of peace!


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Offlinelonestar2004
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Re: On Terrorism and the War Against it [Re: Ped]
    #4379371 - 07/07/05 12:43 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

At some point, the Muslims will have nukes and sufficient amounts of chemical and biological weapons to give new meaning to the word TERROR....


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama


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Invisibledownforpot
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Re: On Terrorism and the War Against it [Re: lonestar2004]
    #4379386 - 07/07/05 12:47 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

we'll just have to take nuke them before they nuke us. or we could let israel wipe out the whole middle east by themselves, they don't even need nukes. They could probably take over all the countries around them in 30 days flat.


--------------------



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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: On Terrorism and the War Against it [Re: downforpot]
    #4379408 - 07/07/05 12:53 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

We should let them loose. It would be great. Even if they lost, it would get a problem out of our hair.


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OfflineAncalagon
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Registered: 07/30/02
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Re: On Terrorism and the War Against it [Re: downforpot]
    #4379431 - 07/07/05 01:01 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

downforpot said:
we'll just have to take nuke them before they nuke us. or we could let israel wipe out the whole middle east by themselves, they don't even need nukes. They could probably take over all the countries around them in 30 days flat.



Just like we took over Iraq in 30 days flat -- how's that working out for us by the way?


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?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'


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Offlinelonestar2004
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Re: On Terrorism and the War Against it [Re: Ancalagon]
    #4379437 - 07/07/05 01:03 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

we should never have fought a multicultural war (politically correct)

we should have turned the sand into glass.


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama


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OfflineAdamist
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Re: On Terrorism and the War Against it [Re: lonestar2004]
    #4379451 - 07/07/05 01:07 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Heh, now you're thinking like the terrorists.

Who's side are you on, anyways, cowboy?


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Offlinelonestar2004
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Re: On Terrorism and the War Against it [Re: Adamist]
    #4379462 - 07/07/05 01:13 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Just pissed off today.


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama


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OfflineAdamist
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Re: On Terrorism and the War Against it [Re: lonestar2004]
    #4379501 - 07/07/05 01:24 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Me too! :evil:


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OfflineHarryFlashmanVC
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Re: On Terrorism and the War Against it [Re: looner2]
    #4379580 - 07/07/05 01:52 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

those who kill our citizens for any reason don't deserve life nor the waste of time understanding their purpose.





Know the enemy and know yourself

In a hundred battles you will never be in peril.

When you are ignorant of the enemy but know yourself

Your chances of winning and losing are equal.

If ignorant both of your enemy and of yourself

You are certain in every battle to be in peril.


Sun Tzu, The Art Of War


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InvisibleSoopaX
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Registered: 11/13/04
Posts: 1,690
Re: On Terrorism and the War Against it [Re: Ancalagon]
    #4379583 - 07/07/05 01:54 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Ancalagon said:
Quote:

downforpot said:
we'll just have to take nuke them before they nuke us. or we could let israel wipe out the whole middle east by themselves, they don't even need nukes. They could probably take over all the countries around them in 30 days flat.



Just like we took over Iraq in 30 days flat -- how's that working out for us by the way?




Quite well, really. Do you honestly think that we've "failed" in Iraq? Compare our casuality count there with some other wars that we have definatly won (say, the big dub-dubs), and with wars that we've lost. Which does it look like more? We've taken over their country, trained troops, installed a new government. If people in the military die while this is happening, well, thats why they call it war instead of "massive slaughter". It's just how shit goes down.


--------------------


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Invisiblelooner2
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Registered: 06/20/04
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Re: On Terrorism and the War Against it [Re: HarryFlashmanVC]
    #4379691 - 07/07/05 02:30 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

HarryFlashmanVC said:
Quote:

those who kill our citizens for any reason don't deserve life nor the waste of time understanding their purpose.





Know the enemy and know yourself

In a hundred battles you will never be in peril.

When you are ignorant of the enemy but know yourself

Your chances of winning and losing are equal.

If ignorant both of your enemy and of yourself

You are certain in every battle to be in peril.


Sun Tzu, The Art Of War




Cute response, but lets really analyze that. By "understanding" your enemies, he doesn't mean a metaphor for caring about their feelings and the struggles of being a poor muslim. Nope... Sun Tzu's art of war was speaking on conditions directly related to war, as in military logistics. By understanding the tactics, groups...etc..etc we can better kill them, but make no mistake... knowing why they do what they do is not up for debate when it comes to "understanding".


--------------------
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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: On Terrorism and the War Against it [Re: looner2]
    #4379695 - 07/07/05 02:31 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

:thumbup:


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Invisibleafoaf
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Re: On Terrorism and the War Against it [Re: SoopaX]
    #4379755 - 07/07/05 02:51 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

except we're still dying over there daily.

their infrastructure seems to be degenerating
based on recent reports and there is no end
in sight.

not necessarily victory in the pacific.


--------------------
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OfflineAncalagon
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Re: On Terrorism and the War Against it [Re: SoopaX]
    #4379817 - 07/07/05 03:04 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Quite well, really. Do you honestly think that we've "failed" in Iraq?



Never said that. Not yet at least. Do YOU honestly think that we've "succeeded" in Iraq?

Quote:

Compare our casuality count there with some other wars that we have definatly won (say, the big dub-dubs), and with wars that we've lost. Which does it look like more?



Don't even know what to make of this. The nature of the wars is so different that using one as some measure of the other is laughable. Is any war to be gauged a success if it keeps its' casualty figures under WWII numbers? How convenient.

Quote:

We've taken over their country



We most certainly have.

Quote:

trained troops



Just a few more trained Iraqi troops and the tide will be turned, eh? We shall see.

Quote:

installed a new government.



Installed, ouch. Poor choice of words? Freudian slip?

Quote:

If people in the military die while this is happening, well, thats why they call it war instead of "massive slaughter". It's just how shit goes down.



People in the military are dying, Iraqi citizens are dying (to a much larger extent) -- I'm just not so sure that each pint of blood that's spilt brings us that much closer to the end game.


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'


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InvisibleSoopaX
Criminal DrugAnalyst

Registered: 11/13/04
Posts: 1,690
Re: On Terrorism and the War Against it [Re: afoaf]
    #4379858 - 07/07/05 03:11 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

afoaf said:
except we're still dying over there daily.

their infrastructure seems to be degenerating
based on recent reports and there is no end
in sight.

not necessarily victory in the pacific.




So these statements wouldn't be applicable to, say, WWII? hardly.

War isn't a big instant victory, but we are winning. More doctors, more hospitals, more teachers, less tyrannical gas-loving dictators. Is Iraq better off? If so, we are winning.


--------------------


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OfflineStrandedVoyager
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Re: On Terrorism and the War Against it [Re: SoopaX]
    #4379862 - 07/07/05 03:12 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

So... um... what war are we fighting again?


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