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Stonehenge
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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: BoldAsLove]
#21952577 - 07/16/15 03:49 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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>Iran hates Israel. Iran is a threat to Israel.
They hate them for the dirty deeds they have done. Isreal is the criminal in the neighborhood and has stolen virtually all the land its on.
Isreal hates arabs, they are a threat to all arabs. Makes as much sense as what you said
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
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BoldAsLove
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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: Stonehenge]
#21952619 - 07/16/15 03:59 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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I'm sure many Arab states consider Israel a threat, but that doesn't have much to do with what we are discussing. You were the one who so boldly claimed that Iran doesn't pose a threat to anyone who isn't invading them. Can you provide any evidence to back that up? Because from what I've provided, it seems clear that Iran is a threat to Israel at the very least.
EDIT: And is your silence on the moonbat issue you admitting the word is derogatory?
-------------------- DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor and Ferdinand , the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.
Edited by BoldAsLove (07/16/15 04:02 PM)
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Stonehenge
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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: BoldAsLove]
#21952661 - 07/16/15 04:11 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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>I'm sure many Arab states consider Israel a threat, but that doesn't have much to do with what we are discussing
You told us that iran hating isreal meant they were a threat. Many countries hate them too
>You were the one who so boldly claimed that Iran doesn't pose a threat to anyone who isn't invading them. Can you provide any evidence to back that up?
You have that a little bit backward. You are the one who claimed they were a threat and never backed it up with anything.
>Because from what I've provided, it seems clear that Iran is a threat to Israel at the very least
What have you provided? I see nothing but opinions.
> is your silence on the moonbat issue you admitting the word is derogatory?
I showed where its defined as a liberal. Is left or right winger derogatory?
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
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KauaiOrca
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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: Stonehenge]
#21952671 - 07/16/15 04:16 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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I think the US realizes that Iran can be a very effective ally against SUNNI extremism as the Sunni leaders, themselves (Saudis, Turks, Egyptians, UAE, etc.) have proven to be relatively useless and, in fact, are key to funding it. I don't think Obama wants a war with Iran but who know, the next president may see it differently.
Keep in mind, that when you think there's some master plan to do an agreement to get us into a war to prop up oil prices for a decade that for it to happen that way, a lot of people at the negotiating table must be clued into it and that's just very unlikely. Most of the people at that level of negotiation simply aren't clued into some big grand conspiracy plan.
Obama realizes, and I think he's right, that Iran is a good counter force to Sunni Extremism and that ultimately, he needs the Saudis and Iranians to work together to reduce the jihadi extremism … Whether he can get that started is a good debate as I have my doubts.
-------------------- "The universe is endless, limitless and infinite. Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance. We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end. There is only memory. Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends. Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations. Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death." -- Ancient Taoist Master
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BoldAsLove
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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: Stonehenge]
#21952683 - 07/16/15 04:21 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Stonehenge said: >I'm sure many Arab states consider Israel a threat, but that doesn't have much to do with what we are discussing
You told us that iran hating isreal meant they were a threat. Many countries hate them too
No, Iran's president publicly stated he wanted Israel wiped off the map. Comments like that show why Iran is a threat to Israel.
Quote:
>You were the one who so boldly claimed that Iran doesn't pose a threat to anyone who isn't invading them. Can you provide any evidence to back that up?
You have that a little bit backward. You are the one who claimed they were a threat and never backed it up with anything.
You're funny. You made the original claim in this post and provided nothing to back it up. I countered the claim and provided an article to back it up. You have still, provided nothing.
Quote:
>Because from what I've provided, it seems clear that Iran is a threat to Israel at the very least
What have you provided? I see nothing but opinions.
The quote for the Iranian president saying he wants to wipe Israel off the map. You believe the translation is false, but provided nothing to support that claim. If you want to discredit my source, you'll have to provide some reasoning or evidence.
And even if it is a bad translation, do you honestly think the correct translation would show anything other than Iran hating Israel and wanting them gone?
Quote:
> is your silence on the moonbat issue you admitting the word is derogatory?
I showed where its defined as a liberal. Is left or right winger derogatory?
So you're continuing to ignore the part of the Oxford Dictionary definition where the word is defined as derogatory? Again, you can make up definitions if you want, but that doesn't make you right.
-------------------- DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor and Ferdinand , the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.
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KauaiOrca
Waterman


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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: BoldAsLove] 1
#21952703 - 07/16/15 04:27 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
BoldAsLove said:
No, Iran's president publicly stated he wanted Israel wiped off the map. Comments like that show why Iran is a threat to Israel.
Americans have a very hard time understanding Arab/Persian feelings and attitudes toward Israel, Jews and Zionism which, to them, are three distinctly different things. When Iran lashes our against "israel" what they are really talking about is Zionism which they see as a western European and American invasion and occupation of their homeland. They don't consider European Jews to have any claim whatsoever on the land of Israel and to them, Israel was simply a relocation of Europeans into one of their most holy locations. When they say "wipe Israel off the map" what they mean is to get rid of what they see as European Zionist control of that country.
They have no desire to drop a big bomb on Israel as that would destroy the Dome of the Rock which is absolutely sacred to them.
They believe Israel is Arab land that was essentially stolen from them through what they think is an illegal real estate transaction in the first half of the 20th century.
Of course, all the border creation and installation of various puppet dictators to extract oil from the region reinforced their belief that western nations simply want to extract the natural resources and then leave them when they're gone.
Iran will never invade or bomb Israel in a big way. However, they will keep their proxy groups going as long as America is behind the political power in the region.
-------------------- "The universe is endless, limitless and infinite. Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance. We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end. There is only memory. Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends. Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations. Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death." -- Ancient Taoist Master
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zappaisgod
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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: KauaiOrca]
#21952833 - 07/16/15 04:58 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Iranians aren't Arabs and the Jews and Christian lived there and in Israel before their even were Muslims. Israel is a tiny country occupying a tiny sliver of basically resource free land. Let us not lose sight of what this is. It is Jew hatred pure and simple. We've seen it before even if the Nazis say it didn't happen. The monsters aren't treating the Christians real well either but they don't have a country to attack.
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Stonehenge
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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: KauaiOrca]
#21952866 - 07/16/15 05:06 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Very well said, KO. Perhaps those who hate arabs and brown people will learn something? There is a first time for everything.
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
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KauaiOrca
Waterman


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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: zappaisgod]
#21952906 - 07/16/15 05:16 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said: Iranians aren't Arabs and the Jews and Christian lived there and in Israel before their even were Muslims. Israel is a tiny country occupying a tiny sliver of basically resource free land. Let us not lose sight of what this is. It is Jew hatred pure and simple. We've seen it before even if the Nazis say it didn't happen. The monsters aren't treating the Christians real well either but they don't have a country to attack.
Hopefully, you realize that ARAB Jews and the Arab/Persian Muslims have lived in that region together for centuries. Arab Muslims do NOT have a big problem with Arab Jews and, IN fact, there are Arab/Persian Jews in Iran and virtually all the other gulf states that get along fine with the Arabs and Persians.
It is EUROPEAN Jews they have a problem with because they don't consider them real jews, they consider them ZIONISTS. That's a very important distinction to them that I'd bet less than 1% of American understand. Keep in mind, that Arabs and Persians both consider Jesus to be a prophet, nearly as important as the Prophet Mohamed. Not a savior or God, but an enlightened profit and they are well aware that Jesus was a Jew. They believe Jesus was an ARAB, not a European.
They associate Europeans with ROME which was a GREAT ENEMY of the Arabs.
-------------------- "The universe is endless, limitless and infinite. Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance. We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end. There is only memory. Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends. Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations. Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death." -- Ancient Taoist Master
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xFrockx


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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: Stonehenge]
#21953087 - 07/16/15 06:03 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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99% of people want low oil prices, but 1% of people hold the grand majority of the money, and those with money, land, and ownership/stock in the energy sector want oil to be $100 a barrel or more.
And lets not forget natural gas. Iran has massive natural gas reserves.
Our economy post 2008 has been largely propped up by domestic oil and gas production, and the accessory industrial growth that incurs (pipe manufacturing, domestic steel production, extraction and freight, to name only a few.)
If there is not something to prop up the cost of oil and natural gas, we can expect further capitulation in the energy markets, which have already fallen by half or more from their highs one year ago.
My money is on war and chaos. My hopes are on world peace.
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Stonehenge
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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: xFrockx]
#21953219 - 07/16/15 06:33 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Good points, frock, and you too, KO. Probably a large part of the reason iran is singled out has to do with oil and gas production and the desire to keep prices up. That and isreali hatred toward iran.
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
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xFrockx


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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: Stonehenge]
#21953261 - 07/16/15 06:40 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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I have said many times, the world would be a better place if after WWII, instead of creating Israel, we had given Germany back to the Jews.
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Stonehenge
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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: xFrockx]
#21953359 - 07/16/15 07:08 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Did the jews own Germany at one time?
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
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xFrockx


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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: Stonehenge]
#21953365 - 07/16/15 07:11 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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BoldAsLove
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Registered: 03/10/11
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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: KauaiOrca]
#21955099 - 07/17/15 08:07 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
KauaiOrca said:
Quote:
BoldAsLove said:
No, Iran's president publicly stated he wanted Israel wiped off the map. Comments like that show why Iran is a threat to Israel.
Americans have a very hard time understanding Arab/Persian feelings and attitudes toward Israel, Jews and Zionism which, to them, are three distinctly different things. When Iran lashes our against "israel" what they are really talking about is Zionism which they see as a western European and American invasion and occupation of their homeland. They don't consider European Jews to have any claim whatsoever on the land of Israel and to them, Israel was simply a relocation of Europeans into one of their most holy locations. When they say "wipe Israel off the map" what they mean is to get rid of what they see as European Zionist control of that country.
They have no desire to drop a big bomb on Israel as that would destroy the Dome of the Rock which is absolutely sacred to them.
They believe Israel is Arab land that was essentially stolen from them through what they think is an illegal real estate transaction in the first half of the 20th century.
Of course, all the border creation and installation of various puppet dictators to extract oil from the region reinforced their belief that western nations simply want to extract the natural resources and then leave them when they're gone.
Iran will never invade or bomb Israel in a big way. However, they will keep their proxy groups going as long as America is behind the political power in the region.
You are right about Irans feelings towards Zionism and the European Jews. I largely agree with you. However, this discussion arose because Stone claimed Iran basically wasn't a threat to anybody. Given the obvious tension, regardless of the source, it is clear that Iran is a threat to the state of Israel.
-------------------- DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor and Ferdinand , the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.
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BoldAsLove
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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: Stonehenge]
#21955104 - 07/17/15 08:08 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Stonehenge said: Very well said, KO. Perhaps those who hate arabs and brown people will learn something? There is a first time for everything.
I hope you're not trying to insinuate that I'm one of those people. Perhaps now you can provide some evidence for your claim that Iran isn't a threat to anyone?
-------------------- DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor and Ferdinand , the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.
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The Ecstatic
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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: zappaisgod]
#21955114 - 07/17/15 08:13 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said: Iranians aren't Arabs and the Jews and Christian lived there and in Israel before their even were Muslims. Israel is a tiny country occupying a tiny sliver of basically resource free land. Let us not lose sight of what this is. It is Jew hatred pure and simple. We've seen it before even if the Nazis say it didn't happen. The monsters aren't treating the Christians real well either but they don't have a country to attack.
Yeah why do the Palestinians even give a shit about their homeland if it's small and has no resources? They should be happy to have Israel usurp it.
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KauaiOrca
Waterman


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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: BoldAsLove]
#21955119 - 07/17/15 08:15 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
BoldAsLove said:
Quote:
Stonehenge said: Very well said, KO. Perhaps those who hate arabs and brown people will learn something? There is a first time for everything.
I hope you're not trying to insinuate that I'm one of those people. Perhaps now you can provide some evidence for your claim that Iran isn't a threat to anyone?
Let's be honest … Iran is a threat, Israel is a threat, China a threat, Russia a threat and the UNITED STATES is a threat … we are all threatening to someone else. Arab and Persian leaders see the US as a HUGE threat.
The real question is … Is Iran a big threat to Israel or the US and I think the answer is clearly no. If they were to nuke Israel of the US, then they would be completely eliminated and the people in power there would be removed and most likely killed. That's a very powerful deterrent.
Iran is mostly concerned about their region and the expansion of Sunni extremism. That's there #1 concern. Bombing the US or Israel with a first strike to fulfill some kind of Islamic prophesy is not even a top 10 concern of there's.
-------------------- "The universe is endless, limitless and infinite. Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance. We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end. There is only memory. Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends. Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations. Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death." -- Ancient Taoist Master
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BoldAsLove
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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: KauaiOrca]
#21955141 - 07/17/15 08:23 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Again, I mostly agree with you. But a threat doesn't have to come in the form of a bomb or ground invasion necessarily. And you're right, as it stands, Israel does not have a reason to fear imminent harm from Iran. But a nuclear weapon greatly alters the balance of power and could embolden the country in unforeseen ways. Not to mention that introducing more nuclear capabilities into a region that is already a cluster fuck increases the threat level to everyone in the region.
My entire point here is that Iran is not some harmless little country. They carry real influence in the region, and could certainly present a threat. This would only increase with a nuclear weapon.
-------------------- DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor and Ferdinand , the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.
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KauaiOrca
Waterman


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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: BoldAsLove]
#21955155 - 07/17/15 08:30 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
BoldAsLove said: Again, I mostly agree with you. But a threat doesn't have to come in the form of a bomb or ground invasion necessarily. And you're right, as it stands, Israel does not have a reason to fear imminent harm from Iran. But a nuclear weapon greatly alters the balance of power and could embolden the country in unforeseen ways. Not to mention that introducing more nuclear capabilities into a region that is already a cluster fuck increases the threat level to everyone in the region.
My entire point here is that Iran is not some harmless little country. They carry real influence in the region, and could certainly present a threat. This would only increase with a nuclear weapon.
More nuclear weapons in that region is not a good situation, I agree. Let's be honest though, Israel has them, the Saudi's helps fund Pakistan's nuclear program and I'm quite sure there are strings attached … The Soviets and Chinese have nukes and have real interest in the region.
If it takes war after war after war to prevent the region from going more nuclear, I'm not convinced that's a better option.
Personally, I find the Saudis a much bigger problem to the US than the Iranians. They fund most of the Sunni extremism, most of the 9/11 terrorists and funding came from the Saudis and they are assumed to be our ALLIES! WTF is that all about?
Iran is the center of Shia Islam and Shia is a much smaller percentage of Islam than Sunni and Shia does not have the kind of extremism element we see with Al Queda or Isis or Wahabism in general. Iran reacts more to the Saudis than they do to us.
-------------------- "The universe is endless, limitless and infinite. Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance. We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end. There is only memory. Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends. Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations. Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death." -- Ancient Taoist Master
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