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xFrockx


Registered: 09/17/06
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Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably
#21939108 - 07/13/15 08:28 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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The negotiations with Iran are very unlikely to be about making peace. The obstacles in the way are too great for a deal to be likely to pass through all the hoops necessary to be finalized.
More than likely, these negotiations represent a good faith effort on the part of the US and other UN member states to bring peace with Iran. Once this effort fails, and there is every indication that it will, then the path will be cleared for war with Iran.
Aside from the general political context of the situation, there is worldwide interest in scuttling the Iran deal. Even Russia does not want to see another 1B barrels of Iranian oil hit the market with prices this low, even if it would open up the arms embargo. Almost no one in the world wants to see that happen, for that matter.
War with Iran, however, would be an enormously profitable enterprise, which would prop up the price of oil for at least half a decade or so.
The "terrorist regime" and "freeing people from oppression" stuff is nothing more than a narrative the powers that be give to morons so that we aren't all contemplating the brutal realities behind warmaking. It's never about high morality, its about resources, nothing more, nothing less.
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Astral Pain
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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: xFrockx]
#21939396 - 07/13/15 09:27 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Arming Iran with nukes will destabilize the region and be a very lucrative opportunity for those selling weapons. War is the greatest money maker on the planet and I don't see any other reasons for a nuke deal to go down. Why even bother acting like they're going to follow any sort of rules when they already made purchases of nuclear weapon technology last month.
http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/iran-made-illegal-purchases-nuclear-weapons-technology-last-month_988067.html
It's like a circus show of articles with Iran these days. Iran Fines U.S. Administration $50 Billion? http://freebeacon.com/national-security/iran-fines-u-s-administration-50-billion/
-------------------- "I don't mean to sound bitter, cold, or cruel, but I am, so that's how it comes out" -Bill Hicks-
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The Ecstatic
Chilldog Extraordinaire


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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: Astral Pain]
#21940951 - 07/14/15 07:51 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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^^ in that case it's probably not a good thing that the CIA tried to sell Iran fake nuclear information, but ended up giving them real nuclear information.
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Stonehenge
Alt Center


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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: Astral Pain] 1
#21941031 - 07/14/15 08:19 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Why should the land thieves and killers of the region be allowed to have nukes but not iran? This is thinly disguised racism. Iran is not made up of crazy people, they know that starting a nuclear war would be suicide and that usa will be forced to attack them. They have renounced nukes and if they had them, which they don't, they would be only for defense.
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
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BoldAsLove
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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: Stonehenge] 1
#21941190 - 07/14/15 09:02 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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If Iran, a Shia country, was nuclearly armed, it would almost certainly prompt prominent Sunni states, like Saudi Arabia, to also develop nuclear weapons. A nuclear arms race, in an already unstable part of the world, is the last thing anyone needs.
-------------------- DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor and Ferdinand , the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.
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Stonehenge
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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: BoldAsLove]
#21941397 - 07/14/15 10:04 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Oh boo de hoo hoo, the Saudis might want their own nukes. Got news for you, they already want them. This is the weakest argument yet for stopping iran from nuclear technology which means of course war and killing loads of civilians.
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
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qman
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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: BoldAsLove]
#21941477 - 07/14/15 10:27 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
BoldAsLove said: If Iran, a Shia country, was nuclearly armed, it would almost certainly prompt prominent Sunni states, like Saudi Arabia, to also develop nuclear weapons. A nuclear arms race, in an already unstable part of the world, is the last thing anyone needs.
So start a nuclear war to prevent a nuclear war?
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BoldAsLove
Pokemon Master


Registered: 03/10/11
Posts: 2,549
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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: qman]
#21942060 - 07/14/15 01:29 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Stonehenge said: Oh boo de hoo hoo, the Saudis might want their own nukes. Got news for you, they already want them. This is the weakest argument yet for stopping iran from nuclear technology which means of course war and killing loads of civilians.
It's not an argument against them having nuclear technology. I support Iran using nuclear energy, but not them having nukes. And the Saudis want nukes, but have no imminent incentive to develop them, Iran having a weapon would change that. And let's not forget that Iran signed the NPT.
Quote:
qman said:
Quote:
BoldAsLove said: If Iran, a Shia country, was nuclearly armed, it would almost certainly prompt prominent Sunni states, like Saudi Arabia, to also develop nuclear weapons. A nuclear arms race, in an already unstable part of the world, is the last thing anyone needs.
So start a nuclear war to prevent a nuclear war?
How on Earth did you get that from my post?
-------------------- DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor and Ferdinand , the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.
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Stonehenge
Alt Center


Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 14,850
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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: BoldAsLove]
#21942142 - 07/14/15 01:56 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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>>So start a nuclear war to prevent a nuclear war?
>How on Earth did you get that from my post?
I didn't say that. No wonder people have noticed the far left is kind of dizzy.
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
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qman
Stranger

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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: BoldAsLove]
#21942182 - 07/14/15 02:08 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
BoldAsLove said:
Quote:
Stonehenge said: Oh boo de hoo hoo, the Saudis might want their own nukes. Got news for you, they already want them. This is the weakest argument yet for stopping iran from nuclear technology which means of course war and killing loads of civilians.
It's not an argument against them having nuclear technology. I support Iran using nuclear energy, but not them having nukes. And the Saudis want nukes, but have no imminent incentive to develop them, Iran having a weapon would change that. And let's not forget that Iran signed the NPT.
Quote:
qman said:
Quote:
BoldAsLove said: If Iran, a Shia country, was nuclearly armed, it would almost certainly prompt prominent Sunni states, like Saudi Arabia, to also develop nuclear weapons. A nuclear arms race, in an already unstable part of the world, is the last thing anyone needs.
So start a nuclear war to prevent a nuclear war?
How on Earth did you get that from my post?
Well, how are you going to stop sovereign nations from developing nuclear weapons? Just ask nicely?
Russia, China, Europe and the rest of the world don't seem to care, why should you?
The only way to stop them is to go to war and more likely than not a nuclear war, it makes no sense for the US to be involved in that situation.
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BoldAsLove
Pokemon Master


Registered: 03/10/11
Posts: 2,549
Loc: Kanto Region
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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: Stonehenge]
#21942218 - 07/14/15 02:17 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Stonehenge said: >>So start a nuclear war to prevent a nuclear war?
>How on Earth did you get that from my post?
I didn't say that. No wonder people have noticed the far left is kind of dizzy.
It quite clearly says at the top of the quote "qman said". Jesus man, calm down a bit. I get that you don't like me, but you don't have to make everything about you.
Also, do you have any response to what I actually replied to you with?
-------------------- DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor and Ferdinand , the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.
Edited by BoldAsLove (07/14/15 02:29 PM)
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BoldAsLove
Pokemon Master


Registered: 03/10/11
Posts: 2,549
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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: qman]
#21942247 - 07/14/15 02:24 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
qman said: Well, how are you going to stop sovereign nations from developing nuclear weapons? Just ask nicely?
Yes, a diplomatic solution is the ideal one and the one currently being used. Diplomacy has worked pretty well I'd say, just look at the NPT.
Quote:
Russia, China, Europe and the rest of the world don't seem to care, why should you?
Seriously? Russia, China, and Europe all care very much about Iran having a nuclear weapon, that's why they were involved in the talks for years now. (Not all of Europe, but big players, like the UK, Germany, and France)
Quote:
The only way to stop them is to go to war and more likely than not a nuclear war, it makes no sense for the US to be involved in that situation.
There is no need for war, let alone nuclear war, when diplomacy is still on the table, and never once did I suggest force should be used. Please don't put words in my mouth.
-------------------- DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor and Ferdinand , the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.
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qman
Stranger

Registered: 12/06/06
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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: BoldAsLove]
#21942270 - 07/14/15 02:31 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
BoldAsLove said:
Quote:
qman said: Well, how are you going to stop sovereign nations from developing nuclear weapons? Just ask nicely?
Yes, a diplomatic solution is the ideal one and the one currently being used. Diplomacy has worked pretty well I'd say, just look at the NPT.
Quote:
Russia, China, Europe and the rest of the world don't seem to care, why should you?
Seriously? Russia, China, and Europe all care very much about Iran having a nuclear weapon, that's why they were involved in the talks for years now. (Not all of Europe, but big players, like the UK, Germany, and France)
Quote:
The only way to stop them is to go to war and more likely than not a nuclear war, it makes no sense for the US to be involved in that situation.
There is no need for war, let alone nuclear war, when diplomacy is still on the table, and never once did I suggest force should be used. Please don't put words in my mouth.
Do you seriously think there's a diplomatic solution to this situation? The US and Israel are just going to "talk" the Iranians out of producing a nuclear weapons program? If you believe that, I have a few bridges for sale!
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BoldAsLove
Pokemon Master


Registered: 03/10/11
Posts: 2,549
Loc: Kanto Region
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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: qman]
#21942304 - 07/14/15 02:39 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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It is by far in Iran's best interest to get an end to the strong sanctions put on it, by not just the U.S., but much of the rest of the world. Iran wants a nuke, but not if that means financial ruin. I dont see it being very likely that they'll have a nuke anytime soon, even if they do want one.
-------------------- DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor and Ferdinand , the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: BoldAsLove]
#21942416 - 07/14/15 03:06 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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There is nothing in the deal that even slows it down. Fuck 'em. Sanction the shit out of them until they bleed. They are scum anyway.
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BoldAsLove
Pokemon Master


Registered: 03/10/11
Posts: 2,549
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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: zappaisgod]
#21942458 - 07/14/15 03:16 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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We'll see how well the deal works. I'm cautiously optimistic that Iran will be on its best behavior for quite a while to avoid another round of sanctions.
-------------------- DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor and Ferdinand , the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.
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Stonehenge
Alt Center


Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 14,850
Loc: S.E.
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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: zappaisgod] 2
#21942471 - 07/14/15 03:21 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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We should sanction the hell out of isreal, and leave iran alone. Iran is not parasitizing us.
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: BoldAsLove]
#21942473 - 07/14/15 03:21 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Are you tripping right now?
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BoldAsLove
Pokemon Master


Registered: 03/10/11
Posts: 2,549
Loc: Kanto Region
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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: zappaisgod]
#21942531 - 07/14/15 03:36 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Unfortunately, no. I don't see why Iran has any reason to pursue a nuclear weapon given the state of their economy right now, nor why that would be considered such a ludicrous idea.
-------------------- DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor and Ferdinand , the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.
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BoldAsLove
Pokemon Master


Registered: 03/10/11
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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: Stonehenge]
#21942535 - 07/14/15 03:37 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Stonehenge said: We should sanction the hell out of isreal, and leave iran alone. Iran is not parasitizing us.
Israel is a far stronger ally to have in the region than Iran.
-------------------- DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor and Ferdinand , the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: BoldAsLove]
#21942967 - 07/14/15 05:10 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
BoldAsLove said: Unfortunately, no. I don't see why Iran has any reason to pursue a nuclear weapon given the state of their economy right now, nor why that would be considered such a ludicrous idea.
But they are. They are not rational actors.
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xFrockx


Registered: 09/17/06
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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: zappaisgod]
#21943170 - 07/14/15 05:57 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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All human beings are cruelly, cruelly, rational. That religion shit is all a farce, theater at best. Behind the scenes in Iran and other seemingly ridiculous countries are people who want power and excess, who have found various ways of achieving that for themselves in their conditions.
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Stonehenge
Alt Center


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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: BoldAsLove]
#21943242 - 07/14/15 06:11 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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>Israel is a far stronger ally to have in the region than Iran.
With allies like that we don't need enemies.
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
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Centerfinger
George Clooney is a Spy!



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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: Stonehenge]
#21946472 - 07/15/15 09:11 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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I have not come to a conclusion as to what the end game plan is for this agreement. As it sits right now, I'm leaning towards the billions in arms sales to neighboring countries, as the war machine must move forward and we need new customers to buy our bombs. The only other angle I can reasonably lean towards is that once the sanctions are lifted, Iran can push their oil to the world markets to drop the price in order to put another squeeze on Russia.
But what do I know, I live a life of common sense and to be honest I could care less if the region explodes and eats itself.
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Stonehenge
Alt Center


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Posts: 14,850
Loc: S.E.
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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: Centerfinger]
#21946502 - 07/15/15 09:19 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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The squeeze on Russia is probably part of the plan plus it saves us a bundle on oil.
Why should iran be under sanctions in the first place? They broke no international rules, its all because the parasite state wants them bombed. They will do dirty work anyway and try to undo the agreement.
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
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BoldAsLove
Pokemon Master


Registered: 03/10/11
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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: Stonehenge]
#21946867 - 07/15/15 11:22 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Stonehenge said: The squeeze on Russia is probably part of the plan plus it saves us a bundle on oil.
Why should iran be under sanctions in the first place? They broke no international rules, its all because the parasite state wants them bombed. They will do dirty work anyway and try to undo the agreement.
Iran was under sanctions in the first place because there were strong suspiscions that they were pursuing a nuclear weapon, which would be a violation of the NPT.
-------------------- DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor and Ferdinand , the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.
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Stonehenge
Alt Center


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Posts: 14,850
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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: BoldAsLove]
#21947096 - 07/15/15 12:21 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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>Iran was under sanctions in the first place because there were strong suspiscions that they were pursuing a nuclear weapon, which would be a violation of the NPT.
"strong suspicions"? To you moonbats that is like being found guilty by a court. In the real world, it means little but usa has to jump when the parasite country says to jump. Our politicians have all taken the bribes and sworn to support them instead of the country that elected them.
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
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Shins
Fun guy



Registered: 09/15/04
Posts: 16,337
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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: Stonehenge]
#21947435 - 07/15/15 01:40 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Iran has always denied persuing nuclear weapons and always said its nuclear program is for electricity and medicine.
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qman
Stranger

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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: Shins] 1
#21947556 - 07/15/15 02:11 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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If Iran is such a dangerous "terrorist state", why does the rest of world (Europe, China, Russia, India, ect.) do business with them? The majority of the world doesn't seem to concerned.
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BoldAsLove
Pokemon Master


Registered: 03/10/11
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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: Stonehenge]
#21947893 - 07/15/15 03:18 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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[quote][b][i]Stonehenge said:[/i][/b] >Iran was under sanctions in the first place because there were strong suspiscions that they were pursuing a nuclear weapon, which would be a violation of the NPT.
"strong suspicions"? To you moonbats that is like being found guilty by a court. In the real world, it means little but usa has to jump when the parasite country says to jump. Our politicians have all taken the bribes and sworn to support them instead of the country that elected them.[/quote]
Are you incapable of making a post without calling people names? You should be able to state your case without resorting to elementary school-style insults
Iran wasn't found guilty, but that doesn't matter. Countries are free to choose who they wish to do business with. Most of the world, not just the U.S., decided not to do business with them until they could convince the world the nuclear technology was for peaceful uses only. What's the problem with that?
-------------------- DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor and Ferdinand , the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.
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Stonehenge
Alt Center


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Posts: 14,850
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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: BoldAsLove]
#21947950 - 07/15/15 03:28 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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>Iran wasn't found guilty, but that doesn't matter.
It doesn't matter to the moonbats, no. Why then should they be sanctioned and threatened with war?
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
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nooneman


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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: xFrockx]
#21947974 - 07/15/15 03:31 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Does anyone actually believe that iran is going to follow through with ANYTHING they agreed to? Anyone? I didn't think so.
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BoldAsLove
Pokemon Master


Registered: 03/10/11
Posts: 2,549
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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: Stonehenge]
#21947990 - 07/15/15 03:33 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Once again with the name calling.
It matters because if I'm a country I can choose who I wish to do business with and who I don't, regardless of if they've been convicted of a crime or not. In my personal life I tend not to associate with shady, back-alley bomb makers, even if they've never been caught. It's the same situation here. Why does it bother you so much that most of the world is against Iran having a nuclear weapon and will take steps to prevent that?
-------------------- DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor and Ferdinand , the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.
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BoldAsLove
Pokemon Master


Registered: 03/10/11
Posts: 2,549
Loc: Kanto Region
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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: nooneman]
#21947994 - 07/15/15 03:34 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
nooneman said: Does anyone actually believe that iran is going to follow through with ANYTHING they agreed to? Anyone? I didn't think so. 
I'm confident they will for at least a little while. They don't want to risk another round of sanctions.
-------------------- DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor and Ferdinand , the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.
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Stonehenge
Alt Center


Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 14,850
Loc: S.E.
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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: BoldAsLove]
#21948289 - 07/15/15 04:43 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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>Once again with the name calling
Once again false
>Why does it bother you so much that most of the world is against Iran having a nuclear weapon and will take steps to prevent that?
I'm in favor of fairness and justice. Having our war machine used for wrong things like that makes me mad. We pay taxes under threat of prison our money and it gets used like that. Sanctions too cost us money and loss of prestige.
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: Stonehenge]
#21948672 - 07/15/15 06:00 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Stonehenge said: The squeeze on Russia is probably part of the plan plus it saves us a bundle on oil.
Why should iran be under sanctions in the first place? They broke no international rules, its all because the parasite state wants them bombed. They will do dirty work anyway and try to undo the agreement.
Saves who on oil? We don't give a fuck.
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Stonehenge
Alt Center


Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 14,850
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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: zappaisgod]
#21948805 - 07/15/15 06:33 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
Stonehenge said: The squeeze on Russia is probably part of the plan plus it saves us a bundle on oil.
Why should iran be under sanctions in the first place? They broke no international rules, its all because the parasite state wants them bombed. They will do dirty work anyway and try to undo the agreement.
Saves who on oil? We don't give a fuck.
"Saves who on oil? We don't give a fuck."
Who is the we? Are you queen Elizabeth using the royal we? Most sane people care about the cost of oil because it impacts their lifestyle a lot. We know you hate Iranians and all brown people.
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
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starfire_xes
I Am 'They'



Registered: 10/24/09
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Last seen: 7 months, 2 days
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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: BoldAsLove]
#21949202 - 07/15/15 08:15 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
BoldAsLove said:
Quote:
nooneman said: Does anyone actually believe that iran is going to follow through with ANYTHING they agreed to? Anyone? I didn't think so. 
I'm confident they will for at least a little while. They don't want to risk another round of sanctions.

They got their deal. In the new 'treaty' or whatever it is called, if sanctions are called for again, Iran is 1) Allowed to appeal the sanctions or 2) Break the treaty at their discretion.
In other words, they can do as they please. You honestly think that this country, who has the stated goal of the elimination of Israel, who mocked the US and Obama while talks where ongoing, and who publicly stated that any agreement reached would not affect their own sovereign nuclear program, is going to stick to their word?
You people must be high. Next, do you trust Obama for ANYTHING related to foreign policy? Look at the fucking mess foreign policy is in. Arab Spring is a case in point.
I agree we shouldn't interfere in foreign sovereign matters. What do we do? Well we need a leader. And he is the kind of leader who makes it perfectly clear that if they jerk our chain, they pay.
Kind of like the big, dumb kid in school who bullies pick on all day. Then the day he has had enough, they pick on him one time to often and he puts one of them in the hospital.
The US needs a leader that 'walks softly and carry a big stick' Not sending troops in, not making deals, not getting americans killed for 'nation-building' and 'democracy'
Once we have a leader that 'puts a country in the hospital' for stepping on us, it won't happen again.
American foreign policy is fucking stupid. That's why people fuck with us.
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Stonehenge
Alt Center


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Posts: 14,850
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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: starfire_xes]
#21949218 - 07/15/15 08:19 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Star, I agree with much of that, obumble's policies have varied from foolish to insane. But I have to disagree with one or two things.
>You honestly think that this country, who has the stated goal of the elimination of Israel...
That is not the country's stated goal. A few hotheads said some things. Compare that to some of the loony statements from the likes of mccaine, graham, and others. Do they make national policy? No.
>The US needs a leader that 'walks softly and carry a big stick' Not sending troops in, not making deals, not getting americans killed for 'nation-building' and 'democracy'
Exactly, we have no business in Iraq or any of those other countries we are meddling in. For that matter, we have no business messing with iran. Why go after them when n korea is run by a certifiable lunatic who already has nuke and missiles too? How can you justify letting them slide and bashing the hell out of iran?
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
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starfire_xes
I Am 'They'



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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: starfire_xes]
#21949344 - 07/15/15 08:58 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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That was more or less my point. And some 'conservative' whose name I don't remember, said a couple of years ago that N Korea was a much greater threat to the US and we were focusing in the wrong direction.
But our credibility is shot. We negotiated from a point of weakness. Iran knows that Obama makes idle threats, like his 'red-line' in Syria. They have us pegged for being weak. A leader doesn't make a threat he can't enforce.
The world is more dangerous because of this 'deal' and because o O's lack o leadership.
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Stonehenge
Alt Center


Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 14,850
Loc: S.E.
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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: starfire_xes]
#21949389 - 07/15/15 09:11 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Ummmmm... there is no glaring flaw in your argument. I can't agree more about obumble. Saying "feckless" is like giving him a compliment. He is a joke.
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
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starfire_xes
I Am 'They'



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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: Stonehenge]
#21949410 - 07/15/15 09:17 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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As far as this deal doing anything meaningful towards promoting stability...
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=c5c_1428254424
That's game, set, and match.
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Stonehenge
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Registered: 06/20/04
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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: starfire_xes]
#21949430 - 07/15/15 09:23 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Oh come on! Where is the evidence iran is a threat to anyone except invaders? The only country that really has an iron in the fire is you know what. The arab states have rivalries which their enemies adroitly exploit. Its a shame.
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
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BoldAsLove
Pokemon Master


Registered: 03/10/11
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Loc: Kanto Region
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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: Stonehenge]
#21950238 - 07/16/15 01:27 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Stonehenge said: >Once again with the name calling
Once again false
So your go to insult of moonbat is not name calling?
Quote:
>Why does it bother you so much that most of the world is against Iran having a nuclear weapon and will take steps to prevent that?
I'm in favor of fairness and justice. Having our war machine used for wrong things like that makes me mad. We pay taxes under threat of prison our money and it gets used like that. Sanctions too cost us money and loss of prestige.
What is wrong about not wanting Iran to have a nuclear weapon?
-------------------- DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor and Ferdinand , the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.
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BoldAsLove
Pokemon Master


Registered: 03/10/11
Posts: 2,549
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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: starfire_xes]
#21950245 - 07/16/15 01:30 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
They got their deal. In the new 'treaty' or whatever it is called, if sanctions are called for again, Iran is 1) Allowed to appeal the sanctions or 2) Break the treaty at their discretion.
In other words, they can do as they please. You honestly think that this country, who has the stated goal of the elimination of Israel, who mocked the US and Obama while talks where ongoing, and who publicly stated that any agreement reached would not affect their own sovereign nuclear program, is going to stick to their word?
Then Iran would be back to square one. Economic ruin at the hand of sanctions and virtually no chance for a diplomatic resolution to the issue. Iran doesn't want that at the moment.
-------------------- DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor and Ferdinand , the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.
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BoldAsLove
Pokemon Master


Registered: 03/10/11
Posts: 2,549
Loc: Kanto Region
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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: Stonehenge]
#21950252 - 07/16/15 01:32 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Stonehenge said: Oh come on! Where is the evidence iran is a threat to anyone except invaders? The only country that really has an iron in the fire is you know what. The arab states have rivalries which their enemies adroitly exploit. Its a shame.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/oct/27/israel.iran
Quote:
Iran's new president created a sense of outrage in the west yesterday by describing Israel as a "disgraceful blot" that should be "wiped off the face of the earth".
-------------------- DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor and Ferdinand , the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.
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Astral Pain
Strange

Registered: 11/10/14
Posts: 2,923
Loc: Chicago
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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: BoldAsLove]
#21950311 - 07/16/15 02:22 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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I can't see how anyone can see this deal as anything other than arming the worlds top terrorist nation, and in doing so ensuring an eventual start to WWIII. This deal was sold under the guise that there would be a watchful eye on their activities, but that is and never was the case.
It's pretty sad when Rosie Perez can spot it, and the ladies of "The View" have a better outlook on the deal than the usual obamabots outright defending it. The View could have made a better deal than Barry and would have had our prisoners freed.
Barry just about lost it when someone asked a legitimate question, and his response was a joke. The prisoners should have been let loose before they even sat down to do any deal. It really couldn't be called an actual deal considering the fact we didn't get a damn thing in return for lifting all the sanctions, and that alone makes them 150 billion wealthier. That's the equivalent to 8 trillion to the US economy, and those funds will be put to fully fund they're terrorist agenda. This deal was just another legacy item to put on his list, and is being touted as some peace maker from the great Nobel Peace Prize president. It's disgusting to think how this will be spun in text books in the future because history is written by the victors.
-------------------- "I don't mean to sound bitter, cold, or cruel, but I am, so that's how it comes out" -Bill Hicks-
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Stonehenge
Alt Center


Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 14,850
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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: BoldAsLove]
#21950860 - 07/16/15 08:07 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
BoldAsLove said:
Quote:
Stonehenge said: >Once again with the name calling
Once again false
Quote:
So your go to insult of moonbat is not name calling?
No it isn't. First of all, moonbat is not an insult any more than liberal is. It means someone on the far left.
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
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Stonehenge
Alt Center


Registered: 06/20/04
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Loc: S.E.
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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: BoldAsLove]
#21950879 - 07/16/15 08:15 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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>Iran's new president created a sense of outrage in the west yesterday by describing Israel as a "disgraceful blot" that should be "wiped off the face of the earth".
I see no statement that they intend to attack isreal. All I see is disgust over the parasite state's actions which are in fact very disgusting. Are you trying to peddle the notion that they plan to launch a nuke war soon as they get some bombs? You think they want to be turned into a parking lot? And anyway, it was something translated out of farsi, they took what was probably an old saying and did a clumsy translation.
I recall Reagan saying the bombers are leaving in 5 minutes to destroy Russia or some such. He later backed off the statement. Does that mean usa should be put under sanctions and forced to do lots of things or be attacked? Words mean little and some statement is far from a good reason for the nutty things that have been done.
Compare that to isreal who has not only invaded and occupied vast areas of the middle east, but has even attacked usa deliberately. They are the ones who should be forced to give up weapons and be under sanctions. They are the loose cannons.
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: Stonehenge]
#21951210 - 07/16/15 09:58 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Stonehenge said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
Stonehenge said: The squeeze on Russia is probably part of the plan plus it saves us a bundle on oil.
Why should iran be under sanctions in the first place? They broke no international rules, its all because the parasite state wants them bombed. They will do dirty work anyway and try to undo the agreement.
Saves who on oil? We don't give a fuck.
"Saves who on oil? We don't give a fuck."
Who is the we? Are you queen Elizabeth using the royal we? Most sane people care about the cost of oil because it impacts their lifestyle a lot. We know you hate Iranians and all brown people.
The US doesn't need any oil from Iran. Nobody does. We have enough of our own and if we don't Canada will sell it to us when we build the Keystone pipeline. I hate the mullahs and freakshow Muslims. Not all freakshow Muslims are brown. Some are quite pale.
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Stonehenge
Alt Center


Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 14,850
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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: zappaisgod]
#21951245 - 07/16/15 10:05 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Iranian oil goes on the world market which helps keep prices down. Its elementary economics that even most high school kids understand. Maybe you should ask one to explain it to you.
>I hate the mullahs and freakshow Muslims.
And arabs, and brown people and all those over there who are not jews. You said killing them was a public service.
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
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The Ecstatic
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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: Stonehenge]
#21951280 - 07/16/15 10:14 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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The Saudis would much rather Iran doesn't increase the global oil supply, for a multitude of reasons.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: Stonehenge]
#21951383 - 07/16/15 10:37 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Stonehenge said: Iranian oil goes on the world market which helps keep prices down. Its elementary economics that even most high school kids understand. Maybe you should ask one to explain it to you.
>I hate the mullahs and freakshow Muslims.
And arabs, and brown people and all those over there who are not jews. You said killing them was a public service.
Iranian oil has been off the market for quite some time and the prices still went down quite a bit. Do you know why? Because of our production. Other stupid point addressed elsewhere.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
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Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: The Ecstatic]
#21951386 - 07/16/15 10:37 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
The Ecstatic said: The Saudis would much rather Iran doesn't increase the global oil supply, for a multitude of reasons.
They fucking hate each other.
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Stonehenge
Alt Center


Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 14,850
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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: zappaisgod]
#21951396 - 07/16/15 10:39 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
Stonehenge said: Iranian oil goes on the world market which helps keep prices down. Its elementary economics that even most high school kids understand. Maybe you should ask one to explain it to you.
>I hate the mullahs and freakshow Muslims.
And arabs, and brown people and all those over there who are not jews. You said killing them was a public service.
Iranian oil has been off the market for quite some time and the prices still went down quite a bit. Do you know why? Because of our production. Other stupid point addressed elsewhere.
I figured you had no clue but its nice you confirmed it. More oil on the market means lower prices and relief for usa citizens. Your red herring does not change that fact.
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
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BoldAsLove
Pokemon Master


Registered: 03/10/11
Posts: 2,549
Loc: Kanto Region
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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: Stonehenge]
#21951840 - 07/16/15 12:30 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Stonehenge said:
No it isn't. First of all, moonbat is not an insult any more than liberal is. It means someone on the far left.
Moonbat is a pejorative term for liberal.
Quote:
Stonehenge said: >Iran's new president created a sense of outrage in the west yesterday by describing Israel as a "disgraceful blot" that should be "wiped off the face of the earth".
I see no statement that they intend to attack isreal. All I see is disgust over the parasite state's actions which are in fact very disgusting. Are you trying to peddle the notion that they plan to launch a nuke war soon as they get some bombs? You think they want to be turned into a parking lot? And anyway, it was something translated out of farsi, they took what was probably an old saying and did a clumsy translation.
I recall Reagan saying the bombers are leaving in 5 minutes to destroy Russia or some such. He later backed off the statement. Does that mean usa should be put under sanctions and forced to do lots of things or be attacked? Words mean little and some statement is far from a good reason for the nutty things that have been done.
Compare that to isreal who has not only invaded and occupied vast areas of the middle east, but has even attacked usa deliberately. They are the ones who should be forced to give up weapons and be under sanctions. They are the loose cannons.
You asked for evidence that Iran was a threat to anyone except countries invading Iran. A statement from the president expressing deep contempt and the desire to eliminate Israel is clearly a threat to a country that isn't invading Iran.
Why are you so set on defending Iran by criticizing Israel? Israel treating the Palestinians so poorly, doesn't really have any significance to a debate about Iran having a nuclear weapon.
-------------------- DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor and Ferdinand , the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.
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Stonehenge
Alt Center


Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 14,850
Loc: S.E.
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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: BoldAsLove]
#21951859 - 07/16/15 12:33 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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>Moonbat is a pejorative term for liberal.
Sez you
>You asked for evidence that Iran was a threat to anyone except countries invading Iran. A statement from the president expressing deep contempt and the desire to eliminate Israel is clearly a threat to a country that isn't invading Iran.
He never said his country's desire was to eliminate isreal. You took something out of context. The parasite country is occupying stolen land, he wants them out of there. Mccaine said similar things about arab countries, he is a lot like zappa. He was a presidential candidate, almost won.
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
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BoldAsLove
Pokemon Master


Registered: 03/10/11
Posts: 2,549
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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: Stonehenge]
#21951892 - 07/16/15 12:40 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Stonehenge said: >Moonbat is a pejorative term for liberal.
Sez you
And the Oxford Dictionary and Wikipedia. Words have definitions, you can make up your own if you like, but the rest of society will see it another way.
Quote:
>You asked for evidence that Iran was a threat to anyone except countries invading Iran. A statement from the president expressing deep contempt and the desire to eliminate Israel is clearly a threat to a country that isn't invading Iran.
He never said his country's desire was to eliminate isreal. You took something out of context. The parasite country is occupying stolen land, he wants them out of there. Mccaine said similar things about arab countries, he is a lot like zappa. He was a presidential candidate, almost won.
He literally said Israel should be wiped from the face of the earth. How is that not a threat to Israel?
-------------------- DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor and Ferdinand , the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.
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Stonehenge
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Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 14,850
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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: BoldAsLove]
#21951915 - 07/16/15 12:46 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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>He literally said Israel should be wiped from the face of the earth. How is that not a threat to Israel?
You have no idea what he said. He spoke in farsi and a lot is lost in translation. He wants them out of the occupied territories.
>Words have definitions, you can make up your own if you like, but the rest of society will see it another way.
Here is what the oxford dictionary says:
"A person with extreme left-wing political views"
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
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BoldAsLove
Pokemon Master


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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: Stonehenge]
#21951966 - 07/16/15 01:01 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Stonehenge said: >He literally said Israel should be wiped from the face of the earth. How is that not a threat to Israel?
You have no idea what he said. He spoke in farsi and a lot is lost in translation. He wants them out of the occupied territories.
Right, let's just assume that the translation has nothing to do with what he actually meant because that fits your worldview better.
Iran hates Israel. Iran is a threat to Israel.
Quote:
>Words have definitions, you can make up your own if you like, but the rest of society will see it another way.
Here is what the oxford dictionary says:
"A person with extreme left-wing political views"
Somehow I just knew that you would ignore the important bit! Look at the link again, notice how right under where it says noun, the word is classified as "derogatory". Keep making up definitions, it doesn't make you right. Moonbat is an insult.
-------------------- DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor and Ferdinand , the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.
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Stonehenge
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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: BoldAsLove]
#21952577 - 07/16/15 03:49 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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>Iran hates Israel. Iran is a threat to Israel.
They hate them for the dirty deeds they have done. Isreal is the criminal in the neighborhood and has stolen virtually all the land its on.
Isreal hates arabs, they are a threat to all arabs. Makes as much sense as what you said
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
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BoldAsLove
Pokemon Master


Registered: 03/10/11
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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: Stonehenge]
#21952619 - 07/16/15 03:59 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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I'm sure many Arab states consider Israel a threat, but that doesn't have much to do with what we are discussing. You were the one who so boldly claimed that Iran doesn't pose a threat to anyone who isn't invading them. Can you provide any evidence to back that up? Because from what I've provided, it seems clear that Iran is a threat to Israel at the very least.
EDIT: And is your silence on the moonbat issue you admitting the word is derogatory?
-------------------- DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor and Ferdinand , the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.
Edited by BoldAsLove (07/16/15 04:02 PM)
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Stonehenge
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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: BoldAsLove]
#21952661 - 07/16/15 04:11 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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>I'm sure many Arab states consider Israel a threat, but that doesn't have much to do with what we are discussing
You told us that iran hating isreal meant they were a threat. Many countries hate them too
>You were the one who so boldly claimed that Iran doesn't pose a threat to anyone who isn't invading them. Can you provide any evidence to back that up?
You have that a little bit backward. You are the one who claimed they were a threat and never backed it up with anything.
>Because from what I've provided, it seems clear that Iran is a threat to Israel at the very least
What have you provided? I see nothing but opinions.
> is your silence on the moonbat issue you admitting the word is derogatory?
I showed where its defined as a liberal. Is left or right winger derogatory?
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
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KauaiOrca
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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: Stonehenge]
#21952671 - 07/16/15 04:16 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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I think the US realizes that Iran can be a very effective ally against SUNNI extremism as the Sunni leaders, themselves (Saudis, Turks, Egyptians, UAE, etc.) have proven to be relatively useless and, in fact, are key to funding it. I don't think Obama wants a war with Iran but who know, the next president may see it differently.
Keep in mind, that when you think there's some master plan to do an agreement to get us into a war to prop up oil prices for a decade that for it to happen that way, a lot of people at the negotiating table must be clued into it and that's just very unlikely. Most of the people at that level of negotiation simply aren't clued into some big grand conspiracy plan.
Obama realizes, and I think he's right, that Iran is a good counter force to Sunni Extremism and that ultimately, he needs the Saudis and Iranians to work together to reduce the jihadi extremism … Whether he can get that started is a good debate as I have my doubts.
-------------------- "The universe is endless, limitless and infinite. Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance. We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end. There is only memory. Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends. Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations. Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death." -- Ancient Taoist Master
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BoldAsLove
Pokemon Master


Registered: 03/10/11
Posts: 2,549
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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: Stonehenge]
#21952683 - 07/16/15 04:21 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Stonehenge said: >I'm sure many Arab states consider Israel a threat, but that doesn't have much to do with what we are discussing
You told us that iran hating isreal meant they were a threat. Many countries hate them too
No, Iran's president publicly stated he wanted Israel wiped off the map. Comments like that show why Iran is a threat to Israel.
Quote:
>You were the one who so boldly claimed that Iran doesn't pose a threat to anyone who isn't invading them. Can you provide any evidence to back that up?
You have that a little bit backward. You are the one who claimed they were a threat and never backed it up with anything.
You're funny. You made the original claim in this post and provided nothing to back it up. I countered the claim and provided an article to back it up. You have still, provided nothing.
Quote:
>Because from what I've provided, it seems clear that Iran is a threat to Israel at the very least
What have you provided? I see nothing but opinions.
The quote for the Iranian president saying he wants to wipe Israel off the map. You believe the translation is false, but provided nothing to support that claim. If you want to discredit my source, you'll have to provide some reasoning or evidence.
And even if it is a bad translation, do you honestly think the correct translation would show anything other than Iran hating Israel and wanting them gone?
Quote:
> is your silence on the moonbat issue you admitting the word is derogatory?
I showed where its defined as a liberal. Is left or right winger derogatory?
So you're continuing to ignore the part of the Oxford Dictionary definition where the word is defined as derogatory? Again, you can make up definitions if you want, but that doesn't make you right.
-------------------- DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor and Ferdinand , the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.
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KauaiOrca
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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: BoldAsLove] 1
#21952703 - 07/16/15 04:27 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
BoldAsLove said:
No, Iran's president publicly stated he wanted Israel wiped off the map. Comments like that show why Iran is a threat to Israel.
Americans have a very hard time understanding Arab/Persian feelings and attitudes toward Israel, Jews and Zionism which, to them, are three distinctly different things. When Iran lashes our against "israel" what they are really talking about is Zionism which they see as a western European and American invasion and occupation of their homeland. They don't consider European Jews to have any claim whatsoever on the land of Israel and to them, Israel was simply a relocation of Europeans into one of their most holy locations. When they say "wipe Israel off the map" what they mean is to get rid of what they see as European Zionist control of that country.
They have no desire to drop a big bomb on Israel as that would destroy the Dome of the Rock which is absolutely sacred to them.
They believe Israel is Arab land that was essentially stolen from them through what they think is an illegal real estate transaction in the first half of the 20th century.
Of course, all the border creation and installation of various puppet dictators to extract oil from the region reinforced their belief that western nations simply want to extract the natural resources and then leave them when they're gone.
Iran will never invade or bomb Israel in a big way. However, they will keep their proxy groups going as long as America is behind the political power in the region.
-------------------- "The universe is endless, limitless and infinite. Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance. We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end. There is only memory. Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends. Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations. Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death." -- Ancient Taoist Master
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zappaisgod
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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: KauaiOrca]
#21952833 - 07/16/15 04:58 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Iranians aren't Arabs and the Jews and Christian lived there and in Israel before their even were Muslims. Israel is a tiny country occupying a tiny sliver of basically resource free land. Let us not lose sight of what this is. It is Jew hatred pure and simple. We've seen it before even if the Nazis say it didn't happen. The monsters aren't treating the Christians real well either but they don't have a country to attack.
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Stonehenge
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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: KauaiOrca]
#21952866 - 07/16/15 05:06 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Very well said, KO. Perhaps those who hate arabs and brown people will learn something? There is a first time for everything.
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
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KauaiOrca
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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: zappaisgod]
#21952906 - 07/16/15 05:16 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said: Iranians aren't Arabs and the Jews and Christian lived there and in Israel before their even were Muslims. Israel is a tiny country occupying a tiny sliver of basically resource free land. Let us not lose sight of what this is. It is Jew hatred pure and simple. We've seen it before even if the Nazis say it didn't happen. The monsters aren't treating the Christians real well either but they don't have a country to attack.
Hopefully, you realize that ARAB Jews and the Arab/Persian Muslims have lived in that region together for centuries. Arab Muslims do NOT have a big problem with Arab Jews and, IN fact, there are Arab/Persian Jews in Iran and virtually all the other gulf states that get along fine with the Arabs and Persians.
It is EUROPEAN Jews they have a problem with because they don't consider them real jews, they consider them ZIONISTS. That's a very important distinction to them that I'd bet less than 1% of American understand. Keep in mind, that Arabs and Persians both consider Jesus to be a prophet, nearly as important as the Prophet Mohamed. Not a savior or God, but an enlightened profit and they are well aware that Jesus was a Jew. They believe Jesus was an ARAB, not a European.
They associate Europeans with ROME which was a GREAT ENEMY of the Arabs.
-------------------- "The universe is endless, limitless and infinite. Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance. We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end. There is only memory. Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends. Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations. Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death." -- Ancient Taoist Master
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xFrockx


Registered: 09/17/06
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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: Stonehenge]
#21953087 - 07/16/15 06:03 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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99% of people want low oil prices, but 1% of people hold the grand majority of the money, and those with money, land, and ownership/stock in the energy sector want oil to be $100 a barrel or more.
And lets not forget natural gas. Iran has massive natural gas reserves.
Our economy post 2008 has been largely propped up by domestic oil and gas production, and the accessory industrial growth that incurs (pipe manufacturing, domestic steel production, extraction and freight, to name only a few.)
If there is not something to prop up the cost of oil and natural gas, we can expect further capitulation in the energy markets, which have already fallen by half or more from their highs one year ago.
My money is on war and chaos. My hopes are on world peace.
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Stonehenge
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Posts: 14,850
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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: xFrockx]
#21953219 - 07/16/15 06:33 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Good points, frock, and you too, KO. Probably a large part of the reason iran is singled out has to do with oil and gas production and the desire to keep prices up. That and isreali hatred toward iran.
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
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xFrockx


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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: Stonehenge]
#21953261 - 07/16/15 06:40 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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I have said many times, the world would be a better place if after WWII, instead of creating Israel, we had given Germany back to the Jews.
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Stonehenge
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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: xFrockx]
#21953359 - 07/16/15 07:08 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Did the jews own Germany at one time?
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
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xFrockx


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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: Stonehenge]
#21953365 - 07/16/15 07:11 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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BoldAsLove
Pokemon Master


Registered: 03/10/11
Posts: 2,549
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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: KauaiOrca]
#21955099 - 07/17/15 08:07 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
KauaiOrca said:
Quote:
BoldAsLove said:
No, Iran's president publicly stated he wanted Israel wiped off the map. Comments like that show why Iran is a threat to Israel.
Americans have a very hard time understanding Arab/Persian feelings and attitudes toward Israel, Jews and Zionism which, to them, are three distinctly different things. When Iran lashes our against "israel" what they are really talking about is Zionism which they see as a western European and American invasion and occupation of their homeland. They don't consider European Jews to have any claim whatsoever on the land of Israel and to them, Israel was simply a relocation of Europeans into one of their most holy locations. When they say "wipe Israel off the map" what they mean is to get rid of what they see as European Zionist control of that country.
They have no desire to drop a big bomb on Israel as that would destroy the Dome of the Rock which is absolutely sacred to them.
They believe Israel is Arab land that was essentially stolen from them through what they think is an illegal real estate transaction in the first half of the 20th century.
Of course, all the border creation and installation of various puppet dictators to extract oil from the region reinforced their belief that western nations simply want to extract the natural resources and then leave them when they're gone.
Iran will never invade or bomb Israel in a big way. However, they will keep their proxy groups going as long as America is behind the political power in the region.
You are right about Irans feelings towards Zionism and the European Jews. I largely agree with you. However, this discussion arose because Stone claimed Iran basically wasn't a threat to anybody. Given the obvious tension, regardless of the source, it is clear that Iran is a threat to the state of Israel.
-------------------- DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor and Ferdinand , the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.
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BoldAsLove
Pokemon Master


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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: Stonehenge]
#21955104 - 07/17/15 08:08 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Stonehenge said: Very well said, KO. Perhaps those who hate arabs and brown people will learn something? There is a first time for everything.
I hope you're not trying to insinuate that I'm one of those people. Perhaps now you can provide some evidence for your claim that Iran isn't a threat to anyone?
-------------------- DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor and Ferdinand , the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.
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The Ecstatic
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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: zappaisgod]
#21955114 - 07/17/15 08:13 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said: Iranians aren't Arabs and the Jews and Christian lived there and in Israel before their even were Muslims. Israel is a tiny country occupying a tiny sliver of basically resource free land. Let us not lose sight of what this is. It is Jew hatred pure and simple. We've seen it before even if the Nazis say it didn't happen. The monsters aren't treating the Christians real well either but they don't have a country to attack.
Yeah why do the Palestinians even give a shit about their homeland if it's small and has no resources? They should be happy to have Israel usurp it.
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KauaiOrca
Waterman


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Posts: 3,131
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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: BoldAsLove]
#21955119 - 07/17/15 08:15 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
BoldAsLove said:
Quote:
Stonehenge said: Very well said, KO. Perhaps those who hate arabs and brown people will learn something? There is a first time for everything.
I hope you're not trying to insinuate that I'm one of those people. Perhaps now you can provide some evidence for your claim that Iran isn't a threat to anyone?
Let's be honest … Iran is a threat, Israel is a threat, China a threat, Russia a threat and the UNITED STATES is a threat … we are all threatening to someone else. Arab and Persian leaders see the US as a HUGE threat.
The real question is … Is Iran a big threat to Israel or the US and I think the answer is clearly no. If they were to nuke Israel of the US, then they would be completely eliminated and the people in power there would be removed and most likely killed. That's a very powerful deterrent.
Iran is mostly concerned about their region and the expansion of Sunni extremism. That's there #1 concern. Bombing the US or Israel with a first strike to fulfill some kind of Islamic prophesy is not even a top 10 concern of there's.
-------------------- "The universe is endless, limitless and infinite. Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance. We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end. There is only memory. Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends. Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations. Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death." -- Ancient Taoist Master
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BoldAsLove
Pokemon Master


Registered: 03/10/11
Posts: 2,549
Loc: Kanto Region
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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: KauaiOrca]
#21955141 - 07/17/15 08:23 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Again, I mostly agree with you. But a threat doesn't have to come in the form of a bomb or ground invasion necessarily. And you're right, as it stands, Israel does not have a reason to fear imminent harm from Iran. But a nuclear weapon greatly alters the balance of power and could embolden the country in unforeseen ways. Not to mention that introducing more nuclear capabilities into a region that is already a cluster fuck increases the threat level to everyone in the region.
My entire point here is that Iran is not some harmless little country. They carry real influence in the region, and could certainly present a threat. This would only increase with a nuclear weapon.
-------------------- DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor and Ferdinand , the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.
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KauaiOrca
Waterman


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Posts: 3,131
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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: BoldAsLove]
#21955155 - 07/17/15 08:30 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
BoldAsLove said: Again, I mostly agree with you. But a threat doesn't have to come in the form of a bomb or ground invasion necessarily. And you're right, as it stands, Israel does not have a reason to fear imminent harm from Iran. But a nuclear weapon greatly alters the balance of power and could embolden the country in unforeseen ways. Not to mention that introducing more nuclear capabilities into a region that is already a cluster fuck increases the threat level to everyone in the region.
My entire point here is that Iran is not some harmless little country. They carry real influence in the region, and could certainly present a threat. This would only increase with a nuclear weapon.
More nuclear weapons in that region is not a good situation, I agree. Let's be honest though, Israel has them, the Saudi's helps fund Pakistan's nuclear program and I'm quite sure there are strings attached … The Soviets and Chinese have nukes and have real interest in the region.
If it takes war after war after war to prevent the region from going more nuclear, I'm not convinced that's a better option.
Personally, I find the Saudis a much bigger problem to the US than the Iranians. They fund most of the Sunni extremism, most of the 9/11 terrorists and funding came from the Saudis and they are assumed to be our ALLIES! WTF is that all about?
Iran is the center of Shia Islam and Shia is a much smaller percentage of Islam than Sunni and Shia does not have the kind of extremism element we see with Al Queda or Isis or Wahabism in general. Iran reacts more to the Saudis than they do to us.
-------------------- "The universe is endless, limitless and infinite. Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance. We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end. There is only memory. Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends. Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations. Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death." -- Ancient Taoist Master
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Stonehenge
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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: BoldAsLove]
#21955184 - 07/17/15 08:41 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Bold, you keep saying I or someone must prove our "claim" that iran is no threat to anyone or else they must be subject to crippling sanctions or war. You have it backward, first of all no one has proven the claim they are a threat, not just theoretical but actual threat to any country. Secondly, a theoretical threat is no reason for the punishment they have received. You have bought into the story line fed to you by the media.
Where is iran's history of invading other countries? How much land have they stolen? Zero and none. Compare that to isreal and you see which country is the real threat and which needs sanctions and perhaps war threats.
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
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KauaiOrca
Waterman


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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: Stonehenge]
#21955197 - 07/17/15 08:44 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Stonehenge said: Bold, you keep saying I or someone must prove our "claim" that iran is no threat to anyone or else they must be subject to crippling sanctions or war. You have it backward, first of all no one has proven the claim they are a threat, not just theoretical but actual threat to any country. Secondly, a theoretical threat is no reason for the punishment they have received. You have bought into the story line fed to you by the media.
Where is iran's history of invading other countries? How much land have they stolen? Zero and none. Compare that to isreal and you see which country is the real threat and which needs sanctions and perhaps war threats.
-------------------- "The universe is endless, limitless and infinite. Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance. We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end. There is only memory. Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends. Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations. Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death." -- Ancient Taoist Master
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BoldAsLove
Pokemon Master


Registered: 03/10/11
Posts: 2,549
Loc: Kanto Region
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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: KauaiOrca]
#21955252 - 07/17/15 09:05 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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KauaiOrca said:
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BoldAsLove said: Again, I mostly agree with you. But a threat doesn't have to come in the form of a bomb or ground invasion necessarily. And you're right, as it stands, Israel does not have a reason to fear imminent harm from Iran. But a nuclear weapon greatly alters the balance of power and could embolden the country in unforeseen ways. Not to mention that introducing more nuclear capabilities into a region that is already a cluster fuck increases the threat level to everyone in the region.
My entire point here is that Iran is not some harmless little country. They carry real influence in the region, and could certainly present a threat. This would only increase with a nuclear weapon.
More nuclear weapons in that region is not a good situation, I agree. Let's be honest though, Israel has them, the Saudi's helps fund Pakistan's nuclear program and I'm quite sure there are strings attached … The Soviets and Chinese have nukes and have real interest in the region.
If it takes war after war after war to prevent the region from going more nuclear, I'm not convinced that's a better option.
Personally, I find the Saudis a much bigger problem to the US than the Iranians. They fund most of the Sunni extremism, most of the 9/11 terrorists and funding came from the Saudis and they are assumed to be our ALLIES! WTF is that all about?
Iran is the center of Shia Islam and Shia is a much smaller percentage of Islam than Sunni and Shia does not have the kind of extremism element we see with Al Queda or Isis or Wahabism in general. Iran reacts more to the Saudis than they do to us.
Why would it take war after war to prevent them from having nukes? We're both arguing the same side of the coin it sounds like: Iran having nukes is negative.
All this other information about the Saudis is not really relevant. The question here is Iran and their nuclear program. If we can stop them from having a nuke through economic or diplomatic means, why wouldn't we?
-------------------- DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor and Ferdinand , the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.
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BoldAsLove
Pokemon Master


Registered: 03/10/11
Posts: 2,549
Loc: Kanto Region
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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: Stonehenge]
#21955261 - 07/17/15 09:10 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Stonehenge said: Bold, you keep saying I or someone must prove our "claim" that iran is no threat to anyone or else they must be subject to crippling sanctions or war. You have it backward, first of all no one has proven the claim they are a threat, not just theoretical but actual threat to any country. Secondly, a theoretical threat is no reason for the punishment they have received. You have bought into the story line fed to you by the media.
Where is iran's history of invading other countries? How much land have they stolen? Zero and none. Compare that to isreal and you see which country is the real threat and which needs sanctions and perhaps war threats.
You are the one who made the original claim and never backed it up. I provided evidence and reasoning for why they are a threat to Israel and your response was, "no way, the translation is wrong."
You are fixated on hating Israel, but their actions are not really relevant to Irans nuclear program. And I certainly haven't supported Israel, they've got a troubling history of abuse.
The question here is concerning Iran's nuclear program, and you still haven't been clear about how you feel about it (except to say you hate Israel). So do you think Iran should have a nuclear weapon, why or why not?
-------------------- DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor and Ferdinand , the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.
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Stonehenge
Alt Center


Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 14,850
Loc: S.E.
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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: BoldAsLove]
#21955287 - 07/17/15 09:18 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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>If we can stop them from having a nuke through economic or diplomatic means, why wouldn't we?
You could say the same about a lot of countries. Why should we do this at great cost to us?
>You are the one who made the original claim
You still fail to see that no credible evidence has been given to show they are a threat to anyone. All you have is speculation. i also have no obligation to disprove any other conspiracy theory which is all you have. A false interpretation of what someone said is nothing. i say again, what about the nutty things some of our politicians have said? What about Reagan saying he was going to bomb Russia? i say look at actions and iran is no threat based on that but isreal is.
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
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qman
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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: BoldAsLove]
#21955313 - 07/17/15 09:27 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
BoldAsLove said:
Quote:
KauaiOrca said:
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BoldAsLove said: Again, I mostly agree with you. But a threat doesn't have to come in the form of a bomb or ground invasion necessarily. And you're right, as it stands, Israel does not have a reason to fear imminent harm from Iran. But a nuclear weapon greatly alters the balance of power and could embolden the country in unforeseen ways. Not to mention that introducing more nuclear capabilities into a region that is already a cluster fuck increases the threat level to everyone in the region.
My entire point here is that Iran is not some harmless little country. They carry real influence in the region, and could certainly present a threat. This would only increase with a nuclear weapon.
More nuclear weapons in that region is not a good situation, I agree. Let's be honest though, Israel has them, the Saudi's helps fund Pakistan's nuclear program and I'm quite sure there are strings attached … The Soviets and Chinese have nukes and have real interest in the region.
If it takes war after war after war to prevent the region from going more nuclear, I'm not convinced that's a better option.
Personally, I find the Saudis a much bigger problem to the US than the Iranians. They fund most of the Sunni extremism, most of the 9/11 terrorists and funding came from the Saudis and they are assumed to be our ALLIES! WTF is that all about?
Iran is the center of Shia Islam and Shia is a much smaller percentage of Islam than Sunni and Shia does not have the kind of extremism element we see with Al Queda or Isis or Wahabism in general. Iran reacts more to the Saudis than they do to us.
Why would it take war after war to prevent them from having nukes? We're both arguing the same side of the coin it sounds like: Iran having nukes is negative.
All this other information about the Saudis is not really relevant. The question here is Iran and their nuclear program. If we can stop them from having a nuke through economic or diplomatic means, why wouldn't we?
"If we (US) can stop them from having a nuke"
It shouldn't be "we", it should be the whole world (EU, China, Russia, India, ect). If the rest of the world isn't too concerned, so be it.
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BoldAsLove
Pokemon Master


Registered: 03/10/11
Posts: 2,549
Loc: Kanto Region
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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: Stonehenge]
#21955316 - 07/17/15 09:30 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Stonehenge said: >If we can stop them from having a nuke through economic or diplomatic means, why wouldn't we?
You could say the same about a lot of countries. Why should we do this at great cost to us?
What is the great cost for us? And we already use this strategy successfully with most of the world.
Quote:
>You are the one who made the original claim
You still fail to see that no credible evidence has been given to show they are a threat to anyone. All you have is speculation. i also have no obligation to disprove any other conspiracy theory which is all you have. A false interpretation of what someone said is nothing. i say again, what about the nutty things some of our politicians have said? What about Reagan saying he was going to bomb Russia? i say look at actions and iran is no threat based on that but isreal is.
You just assumed it was a class interpretation, can you provide anything to support that? And besides, no one here denies the tensions between Iran and Israel. If your neighbor down the street hated you and was constantly making threats or accusations, would you wait until he was at your front door with a gun before you considered him a threat?
-------------------- DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor and Ferdinand , the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.
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BoldAsLove
Pokemon Master


Registered: 03/10/11
Posts: 2,549
Loc: Kanto Region
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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: qman]
#21955325 - 07/17/15 09:32 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
qman said:
Quote:
BoldAsLove said:
Quote:
KauaiOrca said:
Quote:
BoldAsLove said: Again, I mostly agree with you. But a threat doesn't have to come in the form of a bomb or ground invasion necessarily. And you're right, as it stands, Israel does not have a reason to fear imminent harm from Iran. But a nuclear weapon greatly alters the balance of power and could embolden the country in unforeseen ways. Not to mention that introducing more nuclear capabilities into a region that is already a cluster fuck increases the threat level to everyone in the region.
My entire point here is that Iran is not some harmless little country. They carry real influence in the region, and could certainly present a threat. This would only increase with a nuclear weapon.
More nuclear weapons in that region is not a good situation, I agree. Let's be honest though, Israel has them, the Saudi's helps fund Pakistan's nuclear program and I'm quite sure there are strings attached … The Soviets and Chinese have nukes and have real interest in the region.
If it takes war after war after war to prevent the region from going more nuclear, I'm not convinced that's a better option.
Personally, I find the Saudis a much bigger problem to the US than the Iranians. They fund most of the Sunni extremism, most of the 9/11 terrorists and funding came from the Saudis and they are assumed to be our ALLIES! WTF is that all about?
Iran is the center of Shia Islam and Shia is a much smaller percentage of Islam than Sunni and Shia does not have the kind of extremism element we see with Al Queda or Isis or Wahabism in general. Iran reacts more to the Saudis than they do to us.
Why would it take war after war to prevent them from having nukes? We're both arguing the same side of the coin it sounds like: Iran having nukes is negative.
All this other information about the Saudis is not really relevant. The question here is Iran and their nuclear program. If we can stop them from having a nuke through economic or diplomatic means, why wouldn't we?
"If we (US) can stop them from having a nuke"
It shouldn't be "we", it should be the whole world (EU, China, Russia, India, ect). If the rest of the world isn't too concerned, so be it.
Why does this claim keep coming up?? The sanctions against Iran are global. The talks were help by the P5+1 group. Do you honestly believe it's just the U.S. who doesn't want Iran to have a weapon?
-------------------- DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor and Ferdinand , the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.
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qman
Stranger

Registered: 12/06/06
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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: BoldAsLove]
#21955375 - 07/17/15 09:48 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
BoldAsLove said:
Quote:
KauaiOrca said:
Quote:
BoldAsLove said: Again, I mostly agree with you. But a threat doesn't have to come in the form of a bomb or ground invasion necessarily. And you're right, as it stands, Israel does not have a reason to fear imminent harm from Iran. But a nuclear weapon greatly alters the balance of power and could embolden the country in unforeseen ways. Not to mention that introducing more nuclear capabilities into a region that is already a cluster fuck increases the threat level to everyone in the region.
My entire point here is that Iran is not some harmless little country. They carry real influence in the region, and could certainly present a threat. This would only increase with a nuclear weapon.
More nuclear weapons in that region is not a good situation, I agree. Let's be honest though, Israel has them, the Saudi's helps fund Pakistan's nuclear program and I'm quite sure there are strings attached … The Soviets and Chinese have nukes and have real interest in the region.
If it takes war after war after war to prevent the region from going more nuclear, I'm not convinced that's a better option.
Personally, I find the Saudis a much bigger problem to the US than the Iranians. They fund most of the Sunni extremism, most of the 9/11 terrorists and funding came from the Saudis and they are assumed to be our ALLIES! WTF is that all about?
Iran is the center of Shia Islam and Shia is a much smaller percentage of Islam than Sunni and Shia does not have the kind of extremism element we see with Al Queda or Isis or Wahabism in general. Iran reacts more to the Saudis than they do to us.
Why would it take war after war to prevent them from having nukes? We're both arguing the same side of the coin it sounds like: Iran having nukes is negative.
All this other information about the Saudis is not really relevant. The question here is Iran and their nuclear program. If we can stop them from having a nuke through economic or diplomatic means, why wouldn't we?
"If we (US) can stop them from having a nuke"
It shouldn't be "we", it should be the whole world (EU, China, Russia, India, ect). If the rest of the world isn't too concerned, so be it.
Why does this claim keep coming up?? The sanctions against Iran are global. The talks were help by the P5 1 group. Do you honestly believe it's just the U.S. who doesn't want Iran to have a weapon?
Does China and Russia (who are allies of Iran) fear Iran getting nuclear weapons? No.
Do you think the rest of the world will even follow the rules of the sanctions over time? It's one thing to sign an agreement and it's another thing to actually live by it. The EU does billions worth of business with Iran, they are not big fans of losing a business partner.
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The Ecstatic
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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: qman]
#21955412 - 07/17/15 09:59 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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China and Russia aren't getting nuked by anyone anytime soon, and neither is the US.
We're playing big brother for Israel, who ironically has illegal nukes, with Iran.
Pakistan is a much bigger threat, but nobody talks about the potential for a nuclear war between them and India. Or selling nukes to Saudi Arabia.
No, let's worry about the nation that hasn't invaded anybody since the 1800s.
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BoldAsLove
Pokemon Master


Registered: 03/10/11
Posts: 2,549
Loc: Kanto Region
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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: qman]
#21955432 - 07/17/15 10:06 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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China:
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In January 2012, Chinese Prime Minister Wen Jiabao strongly criticized Iran's nuclear program, saying that China "adamantly opposes Iran developing and possessing nuclear weapons"
Russia:
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Russia will do everything in its power to ensure the full implementation of the Vienna agreements, assisting in strengthening global and regional security, global nuclear non-proliferation, the creation in the Middle East of a zone free from weapons of mass destruction and their means of delivery, and the mobilisation of a broad coalition in the region to counter terrorist threats.
The EU has had sanctions on Iran since 2010.
It is definitely not just America who doesn't want Iran to have a nuke.
-------------------- DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor and Ferdinand , the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.
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BoldAsLove
Pokemon Master


Registered: 03/10/11
Posts: 2,549
Loc: Kanto Region
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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: The Ecstatic]
#21955440 - 07/17/15 10:08 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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The Ecstatic said: China and Russia aren't getting nuked by anyone anytime soon, and neither is the US.
We're playing big brother for Israel, who ironically has illegal nukes, with Iran.
Pakistan is a much bigger threat, but nobody talks about the potential for a nuclear war between them and India. Or selling nukes to Saudi Arabia.
No, let's worry about the nation that hasn't invaded anybody since the 1800s.
Israel, India, and Pakistan all have nuclear weapons and never signed the NPT. How do you propose we take their nuclear weapons away from them?
-------------------- DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor and Ferdinand , the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.
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qman
Stranger

Registered: 12/06/06
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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: BoldAsLove]
#21955503 - 07/17/15 10:30 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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BoldAsLove said: China:
Quote:
In January 2012, Chinese Prime Minister Wen Jiabao strongly criticized Iran's nuclear program, saying that China "adamantly opposes Iran developing and possessing nuclear weapons"
Russia:
Quote:
Russia will do everything in its power to ensure the full implementation of the Vienna agreements, assisting in strengthening global and regional security, global nuclear non-proliferation, the creation in the Middle East of a zone free from weapons of mass destruction and their means of delivery, and the mobilisation of a broad coalition in the region to counter terrorist threats.
The EU has had sanctions on Iran since 2010.
It is definitely not just America who doesn't want Iran to have a nuke.
Why do you buy into every headline put out by a government official and call it complete truth? What do you expect them to say?
Does Russia and China still sell them high technology military weaponry? Yes they do, so it seems they talk the talk but don't walk the walk.
http://www.cnn.com/2015/04/14/europe/russia-iran-air-defense-system-sale/
http://www.businessinsider.com/russia-is-selling-a-game-changing-missile-system-to-iran-2015-4
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2011-10-27/some-chinese-missile-sales-to-iran-may-escape-u-s-sanctions-law
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KauaiOrca
Waterman


Registered: 08/12/08
Posts: 3,131
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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: BoldAsLove]
#21955510 - 07/17/15 10:31 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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I think we all know that this agreement WILL pass and Iran will do everything they can to stall, slow, re position, etc. the agreement as far as they can for as long as they can. This is the nature of these kinds of agreements. At some point a few years from now, we'll get a comprehensive report that there are other sites/locations that Iran has moved their supplies, research and production facilities to. WE KNOW THIS IS COMING. The question is, what to do about it? At some point the drums for war will beat hard and that will be another huge mistake if we take the bait again.
Instead, let's focus our attention more at home, on Mexico, Central and South America and get out of this global policing situation. Let Israel, Egypt, Saudi Arabia and Turkey sort this one out. We can get to energy independence quickly if we focus on it and we can have a lot fewer tankers going to and coming from the Middle East and, instead going to ports all over the Americas. Nuclear proliferation is bad but it's also bad to get baited into these decades long ground wars that just deplete our resources and ability to focus on solving problems at home.
Just my 2 cents.
-------------------- "The universe is endless, limitless and infinite. Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance. We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end. There is only memory. Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends. Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations. Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death." -- Ancient Taoist Master
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BoldAsLove
Pokemon Master


Registered: 03/10/11
Posts: 2,549
Loc: Kanto Region
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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: qman]
#21955514 - 07/17/15 10:33 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Just because they sell them weaponry doesn't mean they support them having nuclear weapons. The leaders of those countries are smart enough to realize that Iran having a nuke is destabilizing for the region and bad for just about everyone. Once again, the point here is that the U.S. is not standing alone in opposing Irans nuclear program.
-------------------- DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor and Ferdinand , the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.
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qman
Stranger

Registered: 12/06/06
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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: KauaiOrca]
#21955540 - 07/17/15 10:42 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
KauaiOrca said: I think we all know that this agreement WILL pass and Iran will do everything they can to stall, slow, re position, etc. the agreement as far as they can for as long as they can. This is the nature of these kinds of agreements. At some point a few years from now, we'll get a comprehensive report that there are other sites/locations that Iran has moved their supplies, research and production facilities to. WE KNOW THIS IS COMING. The question is, what to do about it? At some point the drums for war will beat hard and that will be another huge mistake if we take the bait again.
Instead, let's focus our attention more at home, on Mexico, Central and South America and get out of this global policing situation. Let Israel, Egypt, Saudi Arabia and Turkey sort this one out. We can get to energy independence quickly if we focus on it and we can have a lot fewer tankers going to and coming from the Middle East and, instead going to ports all over the Americas. Nuclear proliferation is bad but it's also bad to get baited into these decades long ground wars that just deplete our resources and ability to focus on solving problems at home.
Just my 2 cents.
Well said.
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Shins
Fun guy



Registered: 09/15/04
Posts: 16,337
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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: zappaisgod]
#21955670 - 07/17/15 11:07 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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zappaisgod said:
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The Ecstatic said: The Saudis would much rather Iran doesn't increase the global oil supply, for a multitude of reasons.
They fucking hate each other.
The saudis are already attacking yemen, why are we not sanctioning them? Plus they're Muslims, you would surely think carpet bombing them would be a public service?
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The Ecstatic
Chilldog Extraordinaire


Registered: 11/11/09
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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: BoldAsLove]
#21955767 - 07/17/15 11:41 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
BoldAsLove said:
Quote:
The Ecstatic said: China and Russia aren't getting nuked by anyone anytime soon, and neither is the US.
We're playing big brother for Israel, who ironically has illegal nukes, with Iran.
Pakistan is a much bigger threat, but nobody talks about the potential for a nuclear war between them and India. Or selling nukes to Saudi Arabia.
No, let's worry about the nation that hasn't invaded anybody since the 1800s.
Israel, India, and Pakistan all have nuclear weapons and never signed the NPT. How do you propose we take their nuclear weapons away from them?
I'm not necessarily saying we should.
But worrying about hypothetical nukes being used to solve a hypothetical problem by a nation with virtually zero history of aggression, instead of actual threats by actual nations with actual nukes, is stupidity.
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KauaiOrca
Waterman


Registered: 08/12/08
Posts: 3,131
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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: The Ecstatic]
#21955779 - 07/17/15 11:45 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
The Ecstatic said:
I'm not necessarily saying we should.
But worrying about hypothetical nukes being used to solve a hypothetical problem by a nation with virtually zero history of aggression, instead of actual threats by actual nations with actual nukes, is stupidity.
VERY well said!!!
-------------------- "The universe is endless, limitless and infinite. Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance. We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end. There is only memory. Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends. Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations. Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death." -- Ancient Taoist Master
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Stonehenge
Alt Center


Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 14,850
Loc: S.E.
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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: KauaiOrca]
#21955929 - 07/17/15 12:28 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Why do so many people seem absolutely sure iran is the bad guy in the world? SA supports terrorism, so does turkey, Russia, china, and others. i do not see a shred of evidence that iran is some big threat to the world. We do nothing about n korea, our hypocrisy is plain to see. We are against iran because isreal told us to be and the media they control told us this big story. i see most people have eaten it up and adopted the story line. Zappa i can see since he hates everyone over there but the rest of you?
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
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KauaiOrca
Waterman


Registered: 08/12/08
Posts: 3,131
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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: Stonehenge]
#21955938 - 07/17/15 12:32 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Stonehenge said: Why do so many people seem absolutely sure iran is the bad guy in the world? SA supports terrorism, so does turkey, Russia, china, and others. i do not see a shred of evidence that iran is some big threat to the world. We do nothing about n korea, our hypocrisy is plain to see. We are against iran because isreal told us to be and the media they control told us this big story. i see most people have eaten it up and adopted the story line. Zappa i can see since he hates everyone over there but the rest of you?
We are essentially "against" them because they threw us out with the Shah back in 1979 and they are extremely angry that we helped Saddam acquire the chemical weapons that Saddam used against them in the Iran / Iraq war.
Interestingly, in polling, less than 2% of Americans realize that Reagan helped Saddam acquire huge supplies of chemicals WMD's that were then used against Iran. Iran is very, very bitter about that and that is, to a large extent, why they call us the great satan.
-------------------- "The universe is endless, limitless and infinite. Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance. We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end. There is only memory. Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends. Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations. Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death." -- Ancient Taoist Master
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Stonehenge
Alt Center


Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 14,850
Loc: S.E.
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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: KauaiOrca]
#21955976 - 07/17/15 12:40 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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>We are essentially "against" them because they threw us out with the Shah back in 1979 and they are extremely angry that we helped Saddam acquire the chemical weapons that Saddam used against them in the Iran / Iraq war.
So we are against them because we committed great crimes against them in the past and they remember that? You could say that about most of the world. i see no reason for us to try to destroy or hurt them. Why compound the offense?
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
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KauaiOrca
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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: Stonehenge]
#21956278 - 07/17/15 01:52 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Stonehenge said: >We are essentially "against" them because they threw us out with the Shah back in 1979 and they are extremely angry that we helped Saddam acquire the chemical weapons that Saddam used against them in the Iran / Iraq war.
So we are against them because we committed great crimes against them in the past and they remember that? You could say that about most of the world. i see no reason for us to try to destroy or hurt them. Why compound the offense?
Sums it up nicely. Agree 100%.
-------------------- "The universe is endless, limitless and infinite. Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance. We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end. There is only memory. Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends. Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations. Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death." -- Ancient Taoist Master
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BoldAsLove
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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: The Ecstatic]
#21956420 - 07/17/15 02:21 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
The Ecstatic said:
Quote:
BoldAsLove said:
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The Ecstatic said: China and Russia aren't getting nuked by anyone anytime soon, and neither is the US.
We're playing big brother for Israel, who ironically has illegal nukes, with Iran.
Pakistan is a much bigger threat, but nobody talks about the potential for a nuclear war between them and India. Or selling nukes to Saudi Arabia.
No, let's worry about the nation that hasn't invaded anybody since the 1800s.
Israel, India, and Pakistan all have nuclear weapons and never signed the NPT. How do you propose we take their nuclear weapons away from them?
I'm not necessarily saying we should.
But worrying about hypothetical nukes being used to solve a hypothetical problem by a nation with virtually zero history of aggression, instead of actual threats by actual nations with actual nukes, is stupidity.
I agree, we have far larger problems. But that doesn't mean we should ignore the possibility of more nuclear weapons in the Middle East.
-------------------- DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor and Ferdinand , the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.
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BoldAsLove
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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: Stonehenge]
#21956436 - 07/17/15 02:24 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Stonehenge said: Why do so many people seem absolutely sure iran is the bad guy in the world? SA supports terrorism, so does turkey, Russia, china, and others. i do not see a shred of evidence that iran is some big threat to the world. We do nothing about n korea, our hypocrisy is plain to see. We are against iran because isreal told us to be and the media they control told us this big story. i see most people have eaten it up and adopted the story line. Zappa i can see since he hates everyone over there but the rest of you?
I'm not against Iran, nor do I consider them some bad guy. I am, however, against them having a nuclear weapon. There's a big difference.
-------------------- DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor and Ferdinand , the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.
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Stonehenge
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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: BoldAsLove]
#21956490 - 07/17/15 02:38 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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>I'm not against Iran, nor do I consider them some bad guy. I am, however, against them having a nuclear weapon. There's a big difference.
I'm against them having nukes too. I'm against isreal, and other countries having them. There is a big difference between being against something and being willing to hurt and kill civilians to achieve what you want. Why no talk about n korea? No talk about stopping our support of genocidal countries?
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
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qman
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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: BoldAsLove]
#21956507 - 07/17/15 02:42 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
BoldAsLove said:
Quote:
Stonehenge said: Why do so many people seem absolutely sure iran is the bad guy in the world? SA supports terrorism, so does turkey, Russia, china, and others. i do not see a shred of evidence that iran is some big threat to the world. We do nothing about n korea, our hypocrisy is plain to see. We are against iran because isreal told us to be and the media they control told us this big story. i see most people have eaten it up and adopted the story line. Zappa i can see since he hates everyone over there but the rest of you?
I'm not against Iran, nor do I consider them some bad guy. I am, however, against them having a nuclear weapon. There's a big difference.
But you're OK with Israel have a nuclear weapon despite it being "destabilizing" for the region? Or what done is done is just fine, just no more after Israel? Sounds like a biased approach or maybe Israel should be subjected to the same sanctions until disarmament.
Edited by qman (07/17/15 02:43 PM)
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The Ecstatic
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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: BoldAsLove]
#21956522 - 07/17/15 02:47 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
BoldAsLove said:
Quote:
The Ecstatic said:
Quote:
BoldAsLove said:
Quote:
The Ecstatic said: China and Russia aren't getting nuked by anyone anytime soon, and neither is the US.
We're playing big brother for Israel, who ironically has illegal nukes, with Iran.
Pakistan is a much bigger threat, but nobody talks about the potential for a nuclear war between them and India. Or selling nukes to Saudi Arabia.
No, let's worry about the nation that hasn't invaded anybody since the 1800s.
Israel, India, and Pakistan all have nuclear weapons and never signed the NPT. How do you propose we take their nuclear weapons away from them?
I'm not necessarily saying we should.
But worrying about hypothetical nukes being used to solve a hypothetical problem by a nation with virtually zero history of aggression, instead of actual threats by actual nations with actual nukes, is stupidity.
I agree, we have far larger problems. But that doesn't mean we should ignore the possibility of more nuclear weapons in the Middle East.
Which is why I approve of the diplomatic solution with Iran.
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KauaiOrca
Waterman


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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: The Ecstatic]
#21956730 - 07/17/15 03:39 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Israel, having nukes, has been destabilizing on the region for decades.
-------------------- "The universe is endless, limitless and infinite. Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance. We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end. There is only memory. Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends. Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations. Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death." -- Ancient Taoist Master
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zappaisgod
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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: Stonehenge]
#21957262 - 07/17/15 06:00 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Stonehenge said: Good points, frock, and you too, KO. Probably a large part of the reason iran is singled out has to do with oil and gas production and the desire to keep prices up. That and isreali hatred toward iran.
The fucking Saudis hate them more than anybody. They are scummy whack jobs We should have blown the mullahs to bits when they invaded our embassy when the cunt Carter was president. They are scumbags. The Saudis aint much better but their government knows what side the bread is buttered on. We don't need either one of them. Europe does but we don't.
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Stonehenge
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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: zappaisgod]
#21957307 - 07/17/15 06:10 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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So do you hate arab jews just as much as regular arabs or a little less?
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
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zappaisgod
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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: Stonehenge]
#21957323 - 07/17/15 06:13 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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What is it with you and the Arabs? Is your boyfriend an Arab? Aren't Arab Jews regular Arabs?
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Stonehenge
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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: zappaisgod]
#21957334 - 07/17/15 06:16 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Ah so you hate all arabs even if they are jews? What about brown jews, do you hate them?
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
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The Ecstatic
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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: zappaisgod]
#21959456 - 07/18/15 06:52 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
Stonehenge said: Good points, frock, and you too, KO. Probably a large part of the reason iran is singled out has to do with oil and gas production and the desire to keep prices up. That and isreali hatred toward iran.
The fucking Saudis hate them more than anybody. They are scummy whack jobs We should have blown the mullahs to bits when they invaded our embassy when the cunt Carter was president. They are scumbags. The Saudis aint much better but their government knows what side the bread is buttered on. We don't need either one of them. Europe does but we don't.
I'm sure that embassy storming wasn't at all fomented by our blatant coup to protect oil interests.
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BoldAsLove
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Registered: 03/10/11
Posts: 2,549
Loc: Kanto Region
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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: Stonehenge]
#21959626 - 07/18/15 08:23 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Stonehenge said: >I'm not against Iran, nor do I consider them some bad guy. I am, however, against them having a nuclear weapon. There's a big difference.
I'm against them having nukes too. I'm against isreal, and other countries having them. There is a big difference between being against something and being willing to hurt and kill civilians to achieve what you want. Why no talk about n korea? No talk about stopping our support of genocidal countries?
I didn't talk about it because this thread is about Iran. Not about North Korea. I, as well, am against Israel having nukes and am against military force to prevent Iran from having a weapon.
-------------------- DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor and Ferdinand , the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.
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BoldAsLove
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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: qman]
#21959637 - 07/18/15 08:27 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
qman said:
Quote:
BoldAsLove said:
Quote:
Stonehenge said: Why do so many people seem absolutely sure iran is the bad guy in the world? SA supports terrorism, so does turkey, Russia, china, and others. i do not see a shred of evidence that iran is some big threat to the world. We do nothing about n korea, our hypocrisy is plain to see. We are against iran because isreal told us to be and the media they control told us this big story. i see most people have eaten it up and adopted the story line. Zappa i can see since he hates everyone over there but the rest of you?
I'm not against Iran, nor do I consider them some bad guy. I am, however, against them having a nuclear weapon. There's a big difference.
But you're OK with Israel have a nuclear weapon despite it being "destabilizing" for the region? Or what done is done is just fine, just no more after Israel? Sounds like a biased approach or maybe Israel should be subjected to the same sanctions until disarmament.
You're putting words into my mouth. I'm against Israel having nuclear weapons as well. I'm against nuclear weapons in general. Its just going to be harder to get Israel to give up their nukes because they already have them and they never signed the NPT. Plus, we need at least one good ally in the region. We choose Israel a long time ago, and although they have a troubling history of human rights abuses, you can't deny that they are a very strong ally to have. Whether or not they should be our ally is up for debate though.
-------------------- DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor and Ferdinand , the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.
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qman
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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: BoldAsLove]
#21959812 - 07/18/15 09:45 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
BoldAsLove said:
Quote:
qman said:
Quote:
BoldAsLove said:
Quote:
Stonehenge said: Why do so many people seem absolutely sure iran is the bad guy in the world? SA supports terrorism, so does turkey, Russia, china, and others. i do not see a shred of evidence that iran is some big threat to the world. We do nothing about n korea, our hypocrisy is plain to see. We are against iran because isreal told us to be and the media they control told us this big story. i see most people have eaten it up and adopted the story line. Zappa i can see since he hates everyone over there but the rest of you?
I'm not against Iran, nor do I consider them some bad guy. I am, however, against them having a nuclear weapon. There's a big difference.
But you're OK with Israel have a nuclear weapon despite it being "destabilizing" for the region? Or what done is done is just fine, just no more after Israel? Sounds like a biased approach or maybe Israel should be subjected to the same sanctions until disarmament.
You're putting words into my mouth. I'm against Israel having nuclear weapons as well. I'm against nuclear weapons in general. Its just going to be harder to get Israel to give up their nukes because they already have them and they never signed the NPT. Plus, we need at least one good ally in the region. We choose Israel a long time ago, and although they have a troubling history of human rights abuses, you can't deny that they are a very strong ally to have. Whether or not they should be our ally is up for debate though.
So you're not against the global community using the same economic sanctions against Israel as with Iran? The goal is for no one in the Middle East to have nuclear weapons, so one must remain consistent in policy.
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KauaiOrca
Waterman


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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: qman]
#21959824 - 07/18/15 09:48 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
qman said:
So you're not against the global community using the same economic sanctions against Israel as with Iran? The goal is for no one in the Middle East to have nuclear weapons, so one must remain consistent in policy.
THe global community has shown absolutely no appetite at all to pressure Israel on their Nuclear weapons. NONE. It isn't going to happen.
Israel gets a pass on a lot of things because the global community sees them as the most civilized nation in the region.
-------------------- "The universe is endless, limitless and infinite. Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance. We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end. There is only memory. Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends. Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations. Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death." -- Ancient Taoist Master
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qman
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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: KauaiOrca]
#21959841 - 07/18/15 09:53 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
KauaiOrca said:
Quote:
qman said:
So you're not against the global community using the same economic sanctions against Israel as with Iran? The goal is for no one in the Middle East to have nuclear weapons, so one must remain consistent in policy.
THe global community has shown absolutely no appetite at all to pressure Israel on their Nuclear weapons. NONE. It isn't going to happen.
Israel gets a pass on a lot of things because the global community sees them as the most civilized nation in the region.
So the goal isn't about keeping the Middle East free of nuclear weapons, the goal is to keep EVERYONE but Israel free of nuclear weapons!!
I'm just trying to show Bold how inconsistent his reasoning is trying to potentially disarm Iran.
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Stonehenge
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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: KauaiOrca]
#21959876 - 07/18/15 10:08 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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>Israel gets a pass on a lot of things because the global community sees them as the most civilized nation in the region.
They get a pass because the media says they are civilized and usa is forced to support them. You don't think the other countries in the region want isreal disarmed? Most countries do.
qman >So the goal isn't about keeping the Middle East free of nuclear weapons, the goal is to keep EVERYONE but Israel free of nuclear weapons!!
Exactly. All the sheep go along with that false reasoning because they have been told this by the media all their life.
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
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KauaiOrca
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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: Stonehenge]
#21959964 - 07/18/15 10:45 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Stonehenge said: >Israel gets a pass on a lot of things because the global community sees them as the most civilized nation in the region.
They get a pass because the media says they are civilized and usa is forced to support them. You don't think the other countries in the region want isreal disarmed? Most countries do.
qman >So the goal isn't about keeping the Middle East free of nuclear weapons, the goal is to keep EVERYONE but Israel free of nuclear weapons!!
Exactly. All the sheep go along with that false reasoning because they have been told this by the media all their life.
I am far from being pro-Israel. And I mean FAR!!! There is no question, however, that Israel is the freest, most democratic, most progressive, most liberal, pro women's rights, inclusive country with a functional legal system in the region, by far. They have the most innovative companies, the most open ness and the best educated population. No one else even comes close. Most of the Middle East is governed with a near medieval mindset.
Having said that, Israel does a lot of stuff that is way over the line. I don't know the answer, I admit. But having traveled the region and spent some time in Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and UAE, I know for sure, those countries do not represent any kind of improving future for the region. In other words, Israel is bad but the players around them are much, much worse. Israel has nukes because the US and England want them to. It's really that simple.
It's an interesting debate to try to determine what is right and just, I'm just trying to see things the way they really are.
-------------------- "The universe is endless, limitless and infinite. Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance. We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end. There is only memory. Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends. Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations. Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death." -- Ancient Taoist Master
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KauaiOrca
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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: qman]
#21959972 - 07/18/15 10:47 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
qman said:
So the goal isn't about keeping the Middle East free of nuclear weapons, the goal is to keep EVERYONE but Israel free of nuclear weapons!!
I think the goal is to keep the Sunni vs. Shia conflict from going nuclear.
-------------------- "The universe is endless, limitless and infinite. Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance. We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end. There is only memory. Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends. Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations. Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death." -- Ancient Taoist Master
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The Ecstatic
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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: KauaiOrca]
#21960005 - 07/18/15 10:58 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
KauaiOrca said:
Quote:
qman said:
So the goal isn't about keeping the Middle East free of nuclear weapons, the goal is to keep EVERYONE but Israel free of nuclear weapons!!
I think the goal is to keep the Sunni vs. Shia conflict from going nuclear.
But at the same time, keep it going.
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KauaiOrca
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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: The Ecstatic]
#21960124 - 07/18/15 11:27 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
The Ecstatic said:
But at the same time, keep it going.
Just enough to weaken them both and keep the purchase of US arms at full speed. That's what it's all about. And, of course, to generate uncertainty in the energy markets to keep prices nice and high and those juicy extraction contracts fully funded.
-------------------- "The universe is endless, limitless and infinite. Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance. We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end. There is only memory. Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends. Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations. Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death." -- Ancient Taoist Master
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BoldAsLove
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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: qman]
#21960164 - 07/18/15 11:39 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
qman said: So you're not against the global community using the same economic sanctions against Israel as with Iran? The goal is for no one in the Middle East to have nuclear weapons, so one must remain consistent in policy.
I wouldn't be against a diplomatic solution to Israel getting rid of its nuclear weapons, no. However, let's be realistic. Israel never signed the NPT and clearly has no desire to get rid of its weapons. And economic sanctions would lose the United States its biggest ally in the region. Just because we aren't in a position to force Israel to get rid of its nukes right now, doesn't mean we shouldn't be trying to limit nuclear weapons in the region. Yes, I would like to see an Israel that isn't nuclearly armed, just as I don't want any country really to Have nukes, but just because Israel already has nukes doesn't mean we shouldn't try and stop Iran from having them too.
Quote:
So the goal isn't about keeping the Middle East free of nuclear weapons, the goal is to keep EVERYONE but Israel free of nuclear weapons!!
I'm just trying to show Bold how inconsistent his reasoning is trying to potentially disarm Iran.
Please show me the post where I supported Israel having nuclear weapons? I don't think I've been inconsistent at all.
-------------------- DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor and Ferdinand , the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.
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zappaisgod
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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: The Ecstatic]
#21966569 - 07/19/15 06:36 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
The Ecstatic said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
Stonehenge said: Good points, frock, and you too, KO. Probably a large part of the reason iran is singled out has to do with oil and gas production and the desire to keep prices up. That and isreali hatred toward iran.
The fucking Saudis hate them more than anybody. They are scummy whack jobs We should have blown the mullahs to bits when they invaded our embassy when the cunt Carter was president. They are scumbags. The Saudis aint much better but their government knows what side the bread is buttered on. We don't need either one of them. Europe does but we don't.
I'm sure that embassy storming wasn't at all fomented by our blatant coup to protect oil interests.
What coup? The idea that the CIA is omnipotent is insane. The people of Iran did it. We helped but the Soviets helped the other side. We don't have fucking oil interests. There are dozens of countries that produce oil and if we got our heads out of our asses we wouldn't need to import a drop
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xFrockx


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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: zappaisgod]
#21966630 - 07/19/15 06:51 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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"We don't have fucking oil interests."
Oil is a global commodity.
Tell BP how the UK has no stake in Russian Oil. Or how Royal Dutch Shell has no stake in American Oil. Or how Exxon has no stake in Venezuela's now nationalized oil.
Edited by xFrockx (07/19/15 06:55 PM)
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The Ecstatic
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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: zappaisgod]
#21966946 - 07/19/15 07:55 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
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The Ecstatic said:
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zappaisgod said:
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Stonehenge said: Good points, frock, and you too, KO. Probably a large part of the reason iran is singled out has to do with oil and gas production and the desire to keep prices up. That and isreali hatred toward iran.
The fucking Saudis hate them more than anybody. They are scummy whack jobs We should have blown the mullahs to bits when they invaded our embassy when the cunt Carter was president. They are scumbags. The Saudis aint much better but their government knows what side the bread is buttered on. We don't need either one of them. Europe does but we don't.
I'm sure that embassy storming wasn't at all fomented by our blatant coup to protect oil interests.
What coup? The idea that the CIA is omnipotent is insane. The people of Iran did it. We helped but the Soviets helped the other side. We don't have fucking oil interests. There are dozens of countries that produce oil and if we got our heads out of our asses we wouldn't need to import a drop
Nobody ever said the CIA was omnipotent, but the fact that the CIA and MI6 pushed for a coup against Mossadegh is, well, fact.
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Turtletotem
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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: The Ecstatic]
#21969052 - 07/20/15 03:15 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
The Ecstatic said: Nobody ever said the CIA was omnipotent, but the fact that the CIA and MI6 pushed for a coup against Mossadegh is, well, fact.
Yeah. My grandpa was in Iran when the Shah fell, working for Shell. All of his life he maintained that the Brittish and Americans were responsible, and it turned out he was right.
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Stonehenge
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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: Turtletotem]
#21971350 - 07/20/15 03:46 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Maybe we are being too hard on iran? We might do better trusting them a little more.
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
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Stonehenge
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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: Stonehenge]
#21976823 - 07/21/15 06:15 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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The un just approved the deal and agreed to lift sanctions.
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
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KauaiOrca
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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: Stonehenge]
#21976843 - 07/21/15 06:19 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Stonehenge said: The un just approved the deal and agreed to lift sanctions.
Having a great impact on oil prices too. Nothing wrong with that.
-------------------- "The universe is endless, limitless and infinite. Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance. We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end. There is only memory. Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends. Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations. Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death." -- Ancient Taoist Master
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xFrockx


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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: KauaiOrca]
#21976957 - 07/21/15 06:46 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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http://www.ft.com/cms/s/3/69dbfcb8-2ebd-11e5-8873-775ba7c2ea3d.html#axzz3gZoLKdtL
The world would need to find an additional 15m barrels of oil per day, even with Iran's supply and assuming shale continues to grow at the same rate to justify current prices.
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Stonehenge
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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: xFrockx]
#21976993 - 07/21/15 06:52 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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The market says you are wrong. Industrial production is lagging because demand is lagging. This means less oil is needed and the price will continue to go down. We need a break from high prices.
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
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qman
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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: xFrockx]
#21977265 - 07/21/15 07:58 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
xFrockx said: http://www.ft.com/cms/s/3/69dbfcb8-2ebd-11e5-8873-775ba7c2ea3d.html#axzz3gZoLKdtL
The world would need to find an additional 15m barrels of oil per day, even with Iran's supply and assuming shale continues to grow at the same rate to justify current prices.
LOL, "find an additional 15m barrel of oil per day... to justify current prices"
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xFrockx


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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: Stonehenge]
#21977526 - 07/21/15 08:46 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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" The market says you are wrong. Industrial production is lagging because demand is lagging. This means less oil is needed and the price will continue to go down. We need a break from high prices. "
It is a lot more complicated than that. There is a reason why people can spend their entire lives trying to understand how the oil market works and die never fully understanding it.
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Stonehenge
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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: xFrockx]
#21977634 - 07/21/15 09:09 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Its more complicated than that in the short run but in the long run, supply and demand are what determine price. No amount of tricks can bring the price up to 100 if there is not enough demand to support the price. So many producers are desperate for cash; iran, Venezuela, damn near all producers need the money and only a few can afford to cut production much. If price goes up more fracking goes on and lpg production, oil, gasification, etc.
In the longer run, supplies of oil will run out, coal and gasified coal will be used more. Unless of course the mythical high efficiency fusion reactor becomes practical. If an alternate supply of energy is found then oil might drop way down in price but that is unlikely from where I stand. At least in the next 20 years or so.
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
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KauaiOrca
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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: xFrockx]
#21977648 - 07/21/15 09:13 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
xFrockx said:
It is a lot more complicated than that. There is a reason why people can spend their entire lives trying to understand how the oil market works and die never fully understanding it.
Prices in oil, for the most part, are fixed. It's a rigged system. There is no doubt that the US and the Saudis got together and decided to bring prices down to hurt Iran and Putin. And it worked.
-------------------- "The universe is endless, limitless and infinite. Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance. We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end. There is only memory. Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends. Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations. Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death." -- Ancient Taoist Master
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qman
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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: KauaiOrca]
#21977806 - 07/21/15 09:49 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
KauaiOrca said:
Quote:
xFrockx said:
It is a lot more complicated than that. There is a reason why people can spend their entire lives trying to understand how the oil market works and die never fully understanding it.
Prices in oil, for the most part, are fixed. It's a rigged system. There is no doubt that the US and the Saudis got together and decided to bring prices down to hurt Iran and Putin. And it worked.
"Prices in oil, for the most part, are fixed. It's a rigged system"
What's the fix? $146 or $35 per barrel? Do you remember 1997? Down to $12 per barrel!! It's a globally traded commodity, there's NO FIX!!
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KauaiOrca
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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: qman]
#21977836 - 07/21/15 09:58 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
qman said:
Quote:
KauaiOrca said:
Quote:
xFrockx said:
It is a lot more complicated than that. There is a reason why people can spend their entire lives trying to understand how the oil market works and die never fully understanding it.
Prices in oil, for the most part, are fixed. It's a rigged system. There is no doubt that the US and the Saudis got together and decided to bring prices down to hurt Iran and Putin. And it worked.
"Prices in oil, for the most part, are fixed. It's a rigged system"
What's the fix? $146 or $35 per barrel? Do you remember 1997? Down to $12 per barrel!! It's a globally traded commodity, there's NO FIX!!
Many things (equities, bonds of all types, derivatives, currencies, metals, commodities, etc) are traded globally … that has absolutely nothing to do with whether their prices are manipulated or not. Energy markets are highly manipulated.
-------------------- "The universe is endless, limitless and infinite. Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance. We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end. There is only memory. Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends. Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations. Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death." -- Ancient Taoist Master
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starfire_xes
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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: KauaiOrca]
#21977860 - 07/21/15 10:02 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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So they manipulate the prices lower also?
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qman
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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: KauaiOrca]
#21977913 - 07/21/15 10:11 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
KauaiOrca said:
Quote:
qman said:
Quote:
KauaiOrca said:
Quote:
xFrockx said:
It is a lot more complicated than that. There is a reason why people can spend their entire lives trying to understand how the oil market works and die never fully understanding it.
Prices in oil, for the most part, are fixed. It's a rigged system. There is no doubt that the US and the Saudis got together and decided to bring prices down to hurt Iran and Putin. And it worked.
"Prices in oil, for the most part, are fixed. It's a rigged system"
What's the fix? $146 or $35 per barrel? Do you remember 1997? Down to $12 per barrel!! It's a globally traded commodity, there's NO FIX!!
Many things (equities, bonds of all types, derivatives, currencies, metals, commodities, etc) are traded globally … that has absolutely nothing to do with whether their prices are manipulated or not. Energy markets are highly manipulated.
"highly manipulated"
Higher or lower, how would you even know? For what reason? No government or group of people can manipulate any global commodity for any length of time.
The prices of all asset classes are pushed around by policymakers, everyone already knows this basic fact, if it was all "manipulated" there wouldn't be any market participants or any MARKETS.
Edited by qman (07/21/15 10:12 PM)
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KauaiOrca
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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: qman]
#21978861 - 07/22/15 03:55 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
qman said:
"highly manipulated"
Higher or lower, how would you even know? For what reason? No government or group of people can manipulate any global commodity for any length of time.
The prices of all asset classes are pushed around by policymakers, everyone already knows this basic fact, if it was all "manipulated" there wouldn't be any market participants or any MARKETS.
Why wouldn't there be buyers and sellers if it was being pushed around? Still money to be made. Money to be made on prices going higher and lower. Most of the trading is high frequency anyway which is pure speculation/momentum/algorithmic. The leverage that is brought in through derivatives has changed the game a lot in the last 20 years and continues to do so as more and more trading is computer based and has little to do with fundamentals. Putin alone, it is estimated can tap into over 100 trillion in trading leverage when he needs to.
I see no reason why trading activity would be more or less as a result of market manipulation. If you can read the manipulation, understand it and trade with it, you can certainly make money with it. No one is twisting anyone's arm to be long or short. It's their option.
-------------------- "The universe is endless, limitless and infinite. Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance. We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end. There is only memory. Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends. Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations. Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death." -- Ancient Taoist Master
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Stonehenge
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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: KauaiOrca]
#21979172 - 07/22/15 06:58 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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I think the answer is that big people and groups can influence the price of commodities but can't control it. In the short run they can make blips on the chart but supply and demand are king same as they always have been.
This I don't understand, please explain.
>Putin alone, it is estimated can tap into over 100 trillion in trading leverage when he needs to.
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
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KauaiOrca
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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: Stonehenge]
#21979363 - 07/22/15 08:24 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Stonehenge said: I think the answer is that big people and groups can influence the price of commodities but can't control it. In the short run they can make blips on the chart but supply and demand are king same as they always have been.
This I don't understand, please explain.
>Putin alone, it is estimated can tap into over 100 trillion in trading leverage when he needs to.
The truth is, most of the money that is traded or at least is "credited" as backup for trading doesn't exist. It is LEVERAGE enabled by margin levels and absolute insane leverage ratios, in some cases 100-200:1. Meaning, if a person has a hundred million in real assets, they can control trading power of 1-10 TRILLION dollars through derivatives contracts.
Supply and demand as you call it is an old school term that used to have something to do with production and consumption. Sure, if a farmer grows a ton of corn but the people in HIS COMMUNITY eat/consume 1.2 tons then the price is going up. But that's not how it works. Most of the people (but not all) buying, trading, leveraging derivatives have NOTHING to do with consumption … this is true with corn, beef, oil, coal, copper, gold, currencies, etc. If a group of global investors get together and say they want to bring down the price of something and are willing to pool together a few trillion of leveraged assets to do it, then yes, they can do it. For instance, if the Saudis knew well in advance that they were going to, with the US help, bring oil prices down from $120 to a target of $45 then they could buy boatloads of short contracts on oil as it went down from say $120-$75 and they would be making more money than if oil was being sold at a higher price.
Because countries like Saudi Arabia, Russia and much of Eastern Europe has absolutely no monitoring or restraint on this kind of trading, we can't stop it. And there are a lot of smart people that think Putin and his buds simply use the news they are going to create as a way to move markets where ever they want. Anyway, there is no shortage of oil, hasn't been in a long time and there's no reasonable supply and demand argument to explain why the world's most important resource drops in price by over 50% in a few short months. That's absolutely insane. It's manipulation made possible by absolutely crazy levels of leverage made possible by the global financial system that makes money without producing anything.
-------------------- "The universe is endless, limitless and infinite. Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance. We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end. There is only memory. Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends. Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations. Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death." -- Ancient Taoist Master
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qman
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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: KauaiOrca]
#21979404 - 07/22/15 08:33 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
KauaiOrca said:
Quote:
Stonehenge said: I think the answer is that big people and groups can influence the price of commodities but can't control it. In the short run they can make blips on the chart but supply and demand are king same as they always have been.
This I don't understand, please explain.
>Putin alone, it is estimated can tap into over 100 trillion in trading leverage when he needs to.
The truth is, most of the money that is traded or at least is "credited" as backup for trading doesn't exist. It is LEVERAGE enabled by margin levels and absolute insane leverage ratios, in some cases 100-200:1. Meaning, if a person has a hundred million in real assets, they can control trading power of 1-10 TRILLION dollars through derivatives contracts.
Supply and demand as you call it is an old school term that used to have something to do with production and consumption. Sure, if a farmer grows a ton of corn but the people in HIS COMMUNITY eat/consume 1.2 tons then the price is going up. But that's not how it works. Most of the people (but not all) buying, trading, leveraging derivatives have NOTHING to do with consumption … this is true with corn, beef, oil, coal, copper, gold, currencies, etc. If a group of global investors get together and say they want to bring down the price of something and are willing to pool together a few trillion of leveraged assets to do it, then yes, they can do it. For instance, if the Saudis knew well in advance that they were going to, with the US help, bring oil prices down from $120 to a target of $45 then they could buy boatloads of short contracts on oil as it went down from say $120-$75 and they would be making more money than if oil was being sold at a higher price.
Because countries like Saudi Arabia, Russia and much of Eastern Europe has absolutely no monitoring or restraint on this kind of trading, we can't stop it. And there are a lot of smart people that think Putin and his buds simply use the news they are going to create as a way to move markets where ever they want. Anyway, there is no shortage of oil, hasn't been in a long time and there's no reasonable supply and demand argument to explain why the world's most important resource drops in price by over 50% in a few short months. That's absolutely insane. It's manipulation made possible by absolutely crazy levels of leverage made possible by the global financial system that makes money without producing anything.
That's trading action, it's not FIXING the price of the commodity. Like you are saying, there are so many players with so many different agendas it's impossible to fix the price of something like oil.
We all they that traders push the price around and they have NOTHING to do with the supply or demand of that commodity, that doesn't matter at the end of the day.
What happens if a commodity price goes too low? Demand will increase and that "unnatural" price will rise, same with a price that goes to high, demand will fall.
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KauaiOrca
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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: qman]
#21979446 - 07/22/15 08:42 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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What I'm saying is that the same players can dramatically increase supply or over supply and make giant bets that cash in on whichever way it moves. It's not about "fixing" the price it's about moving it in the direction they want it to go and then letting the magic of momentum and computer driven trading do the rest. The biggest traders just want prices to move because they make money in both directions.
Are you aware how much of the trading has ZERO to do with fundamentals like supply and demand? Trading is what determines pricing and where it goes.
-------------------- "The universe is endless, limitless and infinite. Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance. We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end. There is only memory. Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends. Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations. Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death." -- Ancient Taoist Master
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qman
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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: KauaiOrca]
#21979514 - 07/22/15 09:05 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
KauaiOrca said: What I'm saying is that the same players can dramatically increase supply or over supply and make giant bets that cash in on whichever way it moves. It's not about "fixing" the price it's about moving it in the direction they want it to go and then letting the magic of momentum and computer driven trading do the rest. The biggest traders just want prices to move because they make money in both directions.
Are you aware how much of the trading has ZERO to do with fundamentals like supply and demand? Trading is what determines pricing and where it goes.
Trading includes other aspects such as Dollar strength/weakness, economic growth statistics, oil in storage, ect.
If it was so obvious where "the biggest traders" want the direction of prices to move, everyone would follow their exact trades, but as you know it doesn't work at way, it's still a very big market full of many big traders.
Edited by qman (07/22/15 09:11 AM)
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KauaiOrca
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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: qman]
#21979579 - 07/22/15 09:26 AM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
qman said:
Quote:
KauaiOrca said: What I'm saying is that the same players can dramatically increase supply or over supply and make giant bets that cash in on whichever way it moves. It's not about "fixing" the price it's about moving it in the direction they want it to go and then letting the magic of momentum and computer driven trading do the rest. The biggest traders just want prices to move because they make money in both directions.
Are you aware how much of the trading has ZERO to do with fundamentals like supply and demand? Trading is what determines pricing and where it goes.
Trading includes other aspects such as Dollar strength/weakness, economic growth statistics, oil in storage, ect.
If it was so obvious where "the biggest traders" want the direction of prices to move, everyone would follow their exact trades, but as you know it doesn't work at way, it's still a very big market full of many big traders.
All I'm saying is that trading demand works on a very different dynamic that what is traditionally thought of as supply and demand.
The global derivatives market in total is now over 850 TRILLION dollars. Try to get your head wrapped around that number in terms of understanding supply and demand.
-------------------- "The universe is endless, limitless and infinite. Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance. We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end. There is only memory. Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends. Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations. Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death." -- Ancient Taoist Master
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xFrockx


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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: Stonehenge]
#21980628 - 07/22/15 03:18 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Supply/demand is not simple over any length of time. The deeper you look at it, the more complicated it is.
And prices are in no way fixed. Rich people in all countries fight tooth and nail over this shit. Even OPEC is greatly divided now.
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