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InvisibleKauaiOrca
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Registered: 08/12/08
Posts: 3,131
Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: Stonehenge]
    #21959964 - 07/18/15 10:45 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
>Israel gets a pass on a lot of things because the global community sees them as the most civilized nation in the region.

They get a pass because the media says they are civilized and usa is forced to support them. You don't think the other countries in the region want isreal disarmed? Most countries do.

qman
>So the goal isn't about keeping the Middle East free of nuclear weapons, the goal is to keep EVERYONE but Israel free of nuclear weapons!!

Exactly. All the sheep go along with that false reasoning because they have been told this by the media all their life.




I am far from being pro-Israel. And I mean FAR!!!  There is no question, however, that Israel is the freest, most democratic, most progressive, most liberal, pro women's rights, inclusive country with a functional legal system in the region, by far.  They have the most innovative companies, the most open ness and the best educated population.  No one else even comes close.  Most of the Middle East is governed with a near medieval mindset.

Having said that, Israel does a lot of stuff that is way over the line.  I don't know the answer, I admit.  But having traveled the region and spent some time in Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and UAE, I know for sure, those countries do not represent any kind of improving future for the region.  In other words, Israel is bad but the players around them are much, much worse.  Israel has nukes because the US and England want them to.  It's really that simple.

It's an interesting debate to try to determine what is right and just, I'm just trying to see things the way they really are.


--------------------
"The universe is endless, limitless and infinite.  Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance.  We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end.  There is only memory.  Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends.  Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations.  Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death."

-- Ancient Taoist Master


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InvisibleKauaiOrca
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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: qman]
    #21959972 - 07/18/15 10:47 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:

So the goal isn't about keeping the Middle East free of nuclear weapons, the goal is to keep EVERYONE but Israel free of nuclear weapons!!






I think the goal is to keep the Sunni vs. Shia conflict from going nuclear.


--------------------
"The universe is endless, limitless and infinite.  Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance.  We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end.  There is only memory.  Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends.  Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations.  Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death."

-- Ancient Taoist Master


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: KauaiOrca]
    #21960005 - 07/18/15 10:58 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

KauaiOrca said:
Quote:

qman said:

So the goal isn't about keeping the Middle East free of nuclear weapons, the goal is to keep EVERYONE but Israel free of nuclear weapons!!






I think the goal is to keep the Sunni vs. Shia conflict from going nuclear.




But at the same time, keep it going.


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InvisibleKauaiOrca
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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #21960124 - 07/18/15 11:27 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:


But at the same time, keep it going.




Just enough to weaken them both and keep the purchase of US arms at full speed.  That's what it's all about.  And, of course, to generate uncertainty in the energy markets to keep prices nice and high and those juicy extraction contracts fully funded.


--------------------
"The universe is endless, limitless and infinite.  Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance.  We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end.  There is only memory.  Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends.  Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations.  Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death."

-- Ancient Taoist Master


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InvisibleBoldAsLove
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Registered: 03/10/11
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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: qman]
    #21960164 - 07/18/15 11:39 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
So you're not against the global community using the same economic sanctions against Israel as with Iran?  The goal is for no one in the Middle East to have nuclear weapons, so one must remain consistent in policy.




I wouldn't be against a diplomatic solution to Israel getting rid of its nuclear weapons, no. However, let's be realistic. Israel never signed the NPT and clearly has no desire to get rid of its weapons. And economic sanctions would lose the United States its biggest ally in the region. Just because we aren't in a position to force Israel to get rid of its nukes right now, doesn't mean we shouldn't be trying to limit nuclear weapons in the region. Yes, I would like to see an Israel that isn't nuclearly armed, just as I don't want any country really to Have nukes, but just because Israel already has nukes doesn't mean we shouldn't try and stop Iran from having them too.

Quote:



So the goal isn't about keeping the Middle East free of nuclear weapons, the goal is to keep EVERYONE but Israel free of nuclear weapons!!

I'm just trying to show Bold how inconsistent his reasoning is trying to potentially disarm Iran.




Please show me the post where I supported Israel having nuclear weapons? I don't think I've been inconsistent at all.


--------------------
DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor :alientransform: and Ferdinand :cigar:, the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #21966569 - 07/19/15 06:36 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Stonehenge said:
Good points, frock, and you too, KO. Probably a large part of the reason iran is singled out has to do with oil and gas production and the desire to keep prices up. That and isreali hatred toward iran.



The fucking Saudis hate them more than anybody.  They are scummy whack jobs  We should have blown the mullahs to bits when they invaded our embassy when the cunt Carter was president.  They are scumbags.  The Saudis aint much better but their government knows what side the bread is buttered on.  We don't need either one of them.  Europe does but we don't.




I'm sure that embassy storming wasn't at all fomented by our blatant coup to protect oil interests.




What coup?  The idea that the CIA is omnipotent is insane.  The people of Iran did it.  We helped but the Soviets helped the other side.  We don't have fucking oil interests.  There are dozens of countries that produce oil and if we got our heads out of our asses we wouldn't need to import a drop


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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21966630 - 07/19/15 06:51 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

"We don't have fucking oil interests."

Oil is a global commodity.

:moil:

Tell BP how the UK has no stake in Russian Oil.
Or how Royal Dutch Shell has no stake in American Oil.
Or how Exxon has no stake in Venezuela's now nationalized oil.


Edited by xFrockx (07/19/15 06:55 PM)


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21966946 - 07/19/15 07:55 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Stonehenge said:
Good points, frock, and you too, KO. Probably a large part of the reason iran is singled out has to do with oil and gas production and the desire to keep prices up. That and isreali hatred toward iran.



The fucking Saudis hate them more than anybody.  They are scummy whack jobs  We should have blown the mullahs to bits when they invaded our embassy when the cunt Carter was president.  They are scumbags.  The Saudis aint much better but their government knows what side the bread is buttered on.  We don't need either one of them.  Europe does but we don't.




I'm sure that embassy storming wasn't at all fomented by our blatant coup to protect oil interests.




What coup?  The idea that the CIA is omnipotent is insane.  The people of Iran did it.  We helped but the Soviets helped the other side.  We don't have fucking oil interests.  There are dozens of countries that produce oil and if we got our heads out of our asses we wouldn't need to import a drop




Nobody ever said the CIA was omnipotent, but the fact that the CIA and MI6 pushed for a coup against Mossadegh is, well, fact.


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OfflineTurtletotem
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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #21969052 - 07/20/15 03:15 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Nobody ever said the CIA was omnipotent, but the fact that the CIA and MI6 pushed for a coup against Mossadegh is, well, fact.




Yeah. My grandpa was in Iran when the Shah fell, working for Shell. All of his life he maintained that the Brittish and Americans were responsible, and it turned out he was right.


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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: Turtletotem]
    #21971350 - 07/20/15 03:46 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Maybe we are being too hard on iran? We might do better trusting them a little more.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: Stonehenge]
    #21976823 - 07/21/15 06:15 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

The un just approved the deal and agreed to lift sanctions.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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InvisibleKauaiOrca
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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: Stonehenge]
    #21976843 - 07/21/15 06:19 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
The un just approved the deal and agreed to lift sanctions.




Having a great impact on oil prices too.  Nothing wrong with that.


--------------------
"The universe is endless, limitless and infinite.  Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance.  We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end.  There is only memory.  Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends.  Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations.  Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death."

-- Ancient Taoist Master


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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: KauaiOrca]
    #21976957 - 07/21/15 06:46 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/3/69dbfcb8-2ebd-11e5-8873-775ba7c2ea3d.html#axzz3gZoLKdtL

The world would need to find an additional 15m barrels of oil per day, even with Iran's supply and assuming shale continues to grow at the same rate to justify current prices.


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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: xFrockx]
    #21976993 - 07/21/15 06:52 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

The market says you are wrong. Industrial production is lagging because demand is lagging. This means less oil is needed and the price will continue to go down. We need a break from high prices.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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Offlineqman
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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: xFrockx]
    #21977265 - 07/21/15 07:58 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/3/69dbfcb8-2ebd-11e5-8873-775ba7c2ea3d.html#axzz3gZoLKdtL

The world would need to find an additional 15m barrels of oil per day, even with Iran's supply and assuming shale continues to grow at the same rate to justify current prices.




LOL, "find an additional 15m barrel of oil per day... to justify current prices"


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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: Stonehenge]
    #21977526 - 07/21/15 08:46 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

" The market says you are wrong. Industrial production is lagging because demand is lagging. This means less oil is needed and the price will continue to go down. We need a break from high prices. "

It is a lot more complicated than that. There is a reason why people can spend their entire lives trying to understand how the oil market works and die never fully understanding it.


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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: xFrockx]
    #21977634 - 07/21/15 09:09 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Its more complicated than that in the short run but in the long run, supply and demand are what determine price. No amount of tricks can bring the price up to 100 if there is not enough demand to support the price. So many producers are desperate for cash; iran, Venezuela, damn near all producers need the money and only a few can afford to cut production much. If price goes up more fracking goes on and lpg production, oil, gasification, etc.

In the longer run, supplies of oil will run out, coal and gasified coal will be used more. Unless of course the mythical high efficiency fusion reactor becomes practical. If an alternate supply of energy is found then oil might drop way down in price but that is unlikely from where I stand. At least in the next 20 years or so.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755


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InvisibleKauaiOrca
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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: xFrockx]
    #21977648 - 07/21/15 09:13 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:

It is a lot more complicated than that. There is a reason why people can spend their entire lives trying to understand how the oil market works and die never fully understanding it.




Prices in oil, for the most part, are fixed.  It's a rigged system.  There is no doubt that the US and the Saudis got together and decided to bring prices down to hurt Iran and Putin.  And it worked.


--------------------
"The universe is endless, limitless and infinite.  Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance.  We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end.  There is only memory.  Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends.  Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations.  Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death."

-- Ancient Taoist Master


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Offlineqman
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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: KauaiOrca]
    #21977806 - 07/21/15 09:49 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

KauaiOrca said:
Quote:

xFrockx said:

It is a lot more complicated than that. There is a reason why people can spend their entire lives trying to understand how the oil market works and die never fully understanding it.




Prices in oil, for the most part, are fixed.  It's a rigged system.  There is no doubt that the US and the Saudis got together and decided to bring prices down to hurt Iran and Putin.  And it worked.




"Prices in oil, for the most part, are fixed. It's a rigged system"

What's the fix?  $146 or $35 per barrel?  Do you remember 1997?  Down to $12 per barrel!!  It's a globally traded commodity, there's NO FIX!!


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InvisibleKauaiOrca
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Re: Here's what the Iran Negotiations are really about, probably [Re: qman]
    #21977836 - 07/21/15 09:58 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

KauaiOrca said:
Quote:

xFrockx said:

It is a lot more complicated than that. There is a reason why people can spend their entire lives trying to understand how the oil market works and die never fully understanding it.




Prices in oil, for the most part, are fixed.  It's a rigged system.  There is no doubt that the US and the Saudis got together and decided to bring prices down to hurt Iran and Putin.  And it worked.




"Prices in oil, for the most part, are fixed. It's a rigged system"

What's the fix?  $146 or $35 per barrel?  Do you remember 1997?  Down to $12 per barrel!!  It's a globally traded commodity, there's NO FIX!!




Many things (equities, bonds of all types, derivatives, currencies, metals, commodities, etc) are traded globally … that has absolutely nothing to do with whether their prices are manipulated or not.  Energy markets are  highly manipulated.


--------------------
"The universe is endless, limitless and infinite.  Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance.  We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end.  There is only memory.  Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends.  Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations.  Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death."

-- Ancient Taoist Master


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