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Re: Screwed Karma [Re: Ped]
    #2162476 -

Quote:
Though we perceive good fortune and may decide that it is the ripening of positive karma, it could be just the opposite. It is in cultivating our wisdom and good intentions toward other living beings that we gradually break free from the the trappings of karma.



I didn't know that we would want to, and that it would be good to, break free from the trappings of karma. So now I have another question, and thank you for your time.

If we want to break free of karma, and the way to do that is by cultivating our wisdom and good intentions, how do we know when that has happened?

Is it a rare instance wherein one is able to break free from karma?

If I have reached a point in my life where I don't care about "things" and my intentions towards people are good, and I don't do anything bad, how long would it take for me to break free of karma? Is it possible that I'm still going to be paying for past transgressions, even though I'm being good now?

Why don't I want good karma, anyways? That sort of doesn't make sense. See, I have been thinking that my karma is good because, for the last 4 or so years, for the most part, good things have been happening to me. Or it's magic. Or it's the Universe looking out for me. Or it's God.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard

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Re: Screwed Karma [Re: Frog]
    #2162504 -

I found a site that made karma understandable for me.

http://www.buddhanet.net/fundbud9.htm


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard

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Re: Screwed Karma [Re: Frog]
    #2162535 -

This mobster may claim he is happy with his lifestyle, he may even feel happy.

in states of pleasant confused chaos :wink: Ive seen how I am hurting my soul with some of my actions, and happiness is just a front.


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get it all together get like birds of a feather

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Re: Screwed Karma [Re: Sole_Worthy]
    #2162673 -

I found a site that made karma understandable for me.

http://www.buddhanet.net/fundbud9.htm


yes, another model. is it true? if you believe it. this world evolves on a Good alignment.. Good brings order and progress.. Too much of the opposite, this happens -> WWI WWII. though, with my scale, this world is not even close to being near that alignment.

the path buddhism teaches about karma is towards the love light vs the love of less-light. its neither wrong or right. just a way to learn the world, values and morality.

even i have to acknowledge some of the consequences.. not all of it. why? well, when you're dealing with other peoples' karma you can't control, you're part of the game.


edit: and a Buddha can still be phacking angry, cause mayhem, and still be in bliss.. spiritual rules are human concepts -not to abide by with a blindfold.




Edited by Keyannki (12/05/03 07:17 PM)

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Re: Screwed Karma [Re: EvilGir]
    #2162722 -

So i dont know how my karma translates into not stealing the credit card...

To be karma-free, even the thought of stealing or not-stealing the card would not have occurred; it would NOT be an option.

Let me make this clearer. I saw a beatiful baby girl today. I didn't kill her so how much positive karma have I accrued?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Screwed Karma [Re: Swami]
    #2162740 -

You gain no karma from not killing beautiful children, you only gain positive karma from killing ugly children.


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"In religion and politics people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination."
-- Mark Twain

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Re: Screwed Karma [Re: Frog]
    #2162817 -

Quote:
If I'm poor, but I'm a good person, why am I poor? Is it because I was a rich asshole in a previous life?



Maybe you're supposed to learn something from being poor that you wouldn't have had the chance to if you'd been rich.

Also, good karma doesn't necessarily equal material wealth. My own experience has been that I was happier while I was losing everything than when I was gaining it in the first place. And I've worked with people who had insane money, but were miserable 'cause they were always fighting over petty shit.

Your good karma could be manifesting itself in all those seemingly insignificant things that happen, like finding quarters in a machine when you need parking, random people who walk by & get your keys out of the car, etc.


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I'm just see-through faded, super jaded, and out of my mind. - R.I.P. Layne

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Re: Screwed Karma [Re: Renegade8]
    #2162857 -

Wow, Renegade. Because of what you posted at the end, I am going to tell these two "insignificant" stories...

1. I was going to Los Angeles for some work. I would only be there for about an hour. Stone cold broke, and parking costs at least $10.00. I had no money, but I would stand to make a good sum of money (or at least "survival" money) if I went. I decided to go because at this point I realized that someone is looking out for me.

Half-way there, my car suddenly develops an over-heating problem. I got off the freeway, went to a gas station, and with my last 2 quarters, put water in my engine. While I was putting water in, I looked down and on the base of the water machine were 4 quarters.

When I got to L.A., there was one last metered parking spot, and it cost 4 quarters for one hour.

2. I have this nasty little habit of locking my keys in my car. I also like to throw them any old where and play "let's find the keys". I've lost 2 sets this year, and I've had to have my car broken into lots of times. I threw them in the trash once on the way to Houston from Orange County.

One time, I locked them in the car while at a 7-11. My window was barely open an inch. No one could help me that walked by. My AAA had expired. (I had used all my road-side assistance help up anyways.)

Some guy comes by, sticks his arm in the window and reaches down to unlock my door. Remember barely open an inch. I'm 5'6" and 125 pounds, and I couldn't get my arm in the window. No way. This guy was taller than me, and I swear he didn't look like he was from a concentration camp. He fit his whole arm in.

Some trippy schitt happening out there.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard

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Re: Screwed Karma [Re: Frog]
    #2162873 -

You're writing about carma, this thread is about karma.


--------------------
"In religion and politics people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination."
-- Mark Twain

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Re: Screwed Karma [Re: Autonomous]
    #2163020 -

And you are a funny person!


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard

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Re: Screwed Karma [Re: Frog]
    #2166208 -

>> If we want to break free of karma, and the way to do that is by cultivating our wisdom and good intentions, how do we know when that has happened?

Well, it's best to first establish why we wish to break free of karma.

We wish to break free of karma because karma is what keeps us trapped in this realm, our world. Our world is charactarized by suffering, and happiness that is inseperably linked to suffering. Many of us spend our entire lives chasing happiness in places where only brief delight can be found: in women, sex, riches, gambling, business, materialism, idealism (nuclear family syndrome), and so forth. All of these things bring us happiness, but it is temporary and unfulfilling. We continue to feel empty and alone as all of these things we grasp at eventually turn into sources of suffereing. Even the love between two people in an intimate relationship, if relied upon as a source of happiness, eventually turns into a source suffering and hardship.

The ripening of positive karma serves as a cause for our liberation and happiness free from suffering. This can manifest to us as terrible misfortune, or the opposite. The ripening of negative karma serves as a cause for our ignorance and continued suffering. This can manifest to us as wonderful good fortune, or the opposite. It depends on us.

Depending on your view of reincarnation, it is conceivable to suggest that we have all been trapped in this cycle for many aeons, continously suffering. Our human life is in fact quite rare, and is a good fortune of our positive karma. It is an unfortunate rebirth to be born as an insect or an animal, of which there are many more than humans, because insects, bacteria and animals do not possess the mental tools necessary to observe and finally break free from the suffering that comes as a result of karma. If you'd rather not subscribe to the notion of reincarnation, then the concepts can be condensed into just one life. The mechanics are the same.

We know that we have come free from our karma when we have attained liberation. Do not confuse liberation as enlightenment -- these are two entirely different concepts. Liberation comes as a result of the perfection of wisdom. Enlightenment comes as the result of the perfection of superior seeing. What is liberation?

Liberation is the total cessation of suffering in this life. We are still bound by our karmic obstructions, but they no longer torment us like a bad hangover. We are free from the sufferings of our karma, are blessed with a perpetually relaxed and happy mind, and have the opportunity to use our life in such a way that we are able to purify all of our remaining karma, and to help others do the same. This way, we can begin moving toward enlightenment.


>> Is it a rare instance wherein one is able to break free from karma?

Not at all. A number of liberated individuals have entered my life whom are obviously quite freed from their karma, and are working to purifying the remainder of it. It is relatively simple to be free of karma: all that is needed is a steady, correct view of our circumstances, and to be accepting and peaceful through all adversity. The main characteristic of human behaviour which locks us into karmic cycles is our self-cherishing. If all things are the ripening of our karma, and we encounter adversity, most often we think "I should not have to experience this adversity!", and we may become flustered or angry, even enraged. When we do this, all we do is accumulate more negative karma, and spoil our opportunity to purify the karma that is ripening. If we can completely obliterate our self-cherishing (there are a number of techniques), we can escape karmic cycles and begin the task of purification completely unhindered and happy.

It's even easier than it sounds! All we must do is understand the benefits of such an undertaking. It then happens naturally.


>> If I have reached a point in my life where I don't care about "things" and my intentions towards people are good, and I don't do anything bad, how long would it take for me to break free of karma? Is it possible that I'm still going to be paying for past transgressions, even though I'm being good now?

The negative karma of all our previous lifetimes will continue to ripen, but if we are freed from our karma we will not encounter the ripening with a mind that views it as "pay back" or retribution. Free from karma, we remain contented and unpreturbed as the karma of this and previous lives continues to bear fruit, until all of that merit has been exhausted.

It is a task that requires a firm intention, and a high degree of mindfulness, awareness, and concientiousness. Though, it is absolutely joyful.


I feel I should draw a distinction between the discourse I'm giving now and the points I made earlier. Earlier, I had said that freedom from karma comes as a result of our correct intention toward others. I meant this in a seperate context. This is how we create the conditions for our break from karmic experience entirely -- in short, enlightenment. It is much like planting a seed, and encouraging it to grow.

What I am speaking of now is a sort of detachment from karma, being free from it in a way that is better characterized by cessation of participation. When we cease interacting with our karma as thought it were our enemy, it can be allowed to flow by us without accumulating any further negative karma. This is called the purification of karma. It is a unique sort of freedom.


--------------------


:poison: Dark Triangles - New Psychedelic Techno Single - Listen on Soundcloud :poison:
Gyroscope full album available SoundCloud or MySpace

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Re: Screwed Karma [Re: Frog]
    #2167149 -

Quote:
I am a good person, but I am poor. I don't do bad things to people, yet in spite of all the bad I don't do, and in spite of even all the good that I do, I am not earning riches.



You don't earn riches by being a good person. You earn riches by earning riches.

Quote:
I know a guy who was (still is) such an asshole. Really screwed people when he was younger. Made tons of money. Well, now he has muscular dystrophy. Is that because of karma?



What do you mean "now he has muscular dystrophy"? That's not something you catch like a cold. It's also something that you are either born with or it develops early on in life. Maybe he's an asshole because he's pissed off that his genes suck. So if he wasn't an asshole, he wouldn't now have MD, is that the idea? OK I get it now, him being an asshole and all that people screwing he did when he was younger caused his genes to mutate exactly so that "now he has muscular dystrophy". It all makes perfect sense.

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Re: Screwed Karma [Re: Viveka]
    #2167169 -

Quote:
It is likely that people with MS are, to a certain extent, prone to develop the disease (that is, something that they inherit). Then some unknown environmental factor may trigger the immune system to attack the white matter of the CNS.


http://www.msactivesource.com/application/msas

My mistake. It was multiple sclerosis, not dystrophy. I usually get those two mixed up.

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Re: Screwed Karma [Re: Frog]
    #2167711 -

>> I know a guy who was (still is) such an asshole. Really screwed people when he was younger. Made tons of money. Well, now he has [a bad illness]. Is that because of karma?

Karma does not function in this way. It is very despairing to see how common a misconception this is. Karma is not the divine arbitration of morality, the supreme enforcer of ethical justice.

Karma which is good serves as a cause for our happiness and freedom from suffering. Karma which is bad serves as a cause for our ignorance and trapping in suffering. We are all plauged with the bad karma of ignorance, and we are all blessed with the positive karma of a human life: a life in which we have the capacity and opportunity to manipulate ourselves in such a way that we become truly happy, and free from suffering.

Generally, if we do things which destroy the happiness of others, or if we do things which inhibit or impair the realizations of others, we accumulate negative karma. If we do things which enable the happiness of others, enable the realizations of others, we accumulate positive karma. Either of these can ripen in indiscernable ways.

It is most often impossible to assign "good" and "bad" to the ripening of any of our karma. The phenomenon of a muscular disease may be an enormously positive blessing, in that it may force him to engage in self-analysis, and be finally prompted to make the necessary adjustments for a happy and fulfilling life. Or, it may slowly drive him out of his human life, having never taken advantage of his opportunity to use his life in a meaningful way.

Above all, it is important to remember that we can't single out karmic appearances and say "this is today's unit of karma", and then go on about our day as though karma did not exist. Each and every experience we have is the ripening of our karma. All phenomenon are karmic appearances to mind. How can we possibly go about analyzing notable good or misfortune and categorize it as "good" or "bad", based upon the context of our karmically influenced mind?

Please know that I am not intending to force a doctrine of karma on others, merely clarifying how it has been understood by those who first communicated the teachings to us.


--------------------


:poison: Dark Triangles - New Psychedelic Techno Single - Listen on Soundcloud :poison:
Gyroscope full album available SoundCloud or MySpace

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Re: Screwed Karma [Re: Ped]
    #2167926 -

Quote:
Ped: Karma which is good serves as a cause for our happiness and freedom from suffering. Karma which is bad serves as a cause for our ignorance and trapping in suffering. We are all plauged with the bad karma of ignorance, and we are all blessed with the positive karma of a human life: a life in which we have the capacity and opportunity to manipulate ourselves in such a way that we become truly happy, and free from suffering.



Please correct me if I am wrong, but here is what it seems to me that you are saying:

Good and bad things are going to happen to us, but depending on whether we have good karma or bad karma (or in my case “carma”), we will look at stuff that happens to us, whether it’s good or bad, and if we have “good” karma, we will see the “good” in it, but if we have “bad” karma, we will see the bad in it.

???

Quote:
Ped: Please know that I am not intending to force a doctrine of karma on others, merely clarifying how it has been understood by those who first communicated the teachings to us.



Well, honestly, I almost feel like I have my own personal karma teacher in you, Ped. You seem very knowledgeable on the subject. My thoughts are just on what I’ve been thinking, experiencing, and reading for the last year and ?. But I have been running into these issues frequently enough that really, I should go to a book store and read about it. I almost feel like I am taking the easy way out by picking your brain on it.

I appreciate the knowledge that you are sharing is what I am trying to say.

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Re: Screwed Karma [Re: Sole_Worthy]
    #2167976 -

Sole_Worthy said:
This mobster may claim he is happy with his lifestyle, he may even feel happy.

in states of pleasant confused chaos :wink: Ive seen how I am hurting my soul with some of my actions, and happiness is just a front. 


I've been thinking about this some more, based on Ped's recent post, and I am thinking: 

I am happy, but I have nothing.  I don't think I am making bad decisions.  I've left my fate to God, or the Universe, or whatever you want to call it. Others might look at me and say I have bad karma, based on my current situation.  But I look at my current situation and say, "What a blast life is!" 

It would tie in with what Ped is saying.  Well, that is, if he's saying what I think he's saying. 

Which would mean, then, that it isn't necessarily your bad decisions that make you unhappy, but your bad karma?  (I'm sorry, but I'm laughing at myself as I write this last sentence about your bad karma, as if I think I am now some karma guru.  I'm just trying to figure this out, and if I write my thoughts down here, someone will jump on me and send me in the right direction.)


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard

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Re: Screwed Karma [Re: Frog]
    #2169779 -

>> we will look at stuff that happens to us, whether it?s good or bad, and if we have ?good? karma, we will see the ?good? in it, but if we have ?bad? karma, we will see the bad in it.

If we have wisdom, absolutely. Though, this wisdom demands a lot of alertness to cultivate.

>> Which would mean, then, that it isn't necessarily your bad decisions that make you unhappy, but your bad karma?

Poor decisions create poor karma, which makes us unhappy. It is important to remember that the appearances of happy and unhappy are karmically influenced events. Everything we see and experience is apart from what is real, appearing to us through the imprints of our karma.

There are two types of poor decisions.

1. Poor decisons made from ignorance.
2. Poor decisions made from harmful or negative intent.

The latter is infintely more harmful to us than the former. The first is like walking into a telephone poll: we will bruise our forehead. The second is like opening a clearly marked bottle of poison and drinking it eagerly. Why would anyone do such a thing!

This is why one of the primary elements of Buddhist practice is to cultivate Bodhichitta, or the incredibly strong intention to help others. It is said that with Bodhichitta, our compassion is indiscriminate. We care for all beings as though they were our own children. Our wish to protect their happiness is spontaneous and intense.

If we have this virtuous intent, it protects us from the poor karma we accumulate from the ignorance we are working to dispel, and removes the potential for us to make poor decisions out of maliciousness.

As Shantideva said:

Just as it is rare indeed
For a blind person to find a jewl in a heap of garbage;
So too, by some very rare chance, I have generated Bodhichitta.

It is the supreme nectar that overcomes
The dominon of Death over living beings,
And an inexhaustible treasury
That dispels all their poverty.

It is the supreme medicine that relives
The sickness of living beings,
And a shady tree that provides shelter
For weary beings travelling samsaras paths.

It is a universal bridge by which all living beings
Can be delivered from the lower realms,
And a rising moon of a mind
That relieves the torment of their delusions


From Guide to the Bodhisattava's Way of Life by Shantideva, translated by Geshe Kelsang Gyatso (2002)


--------------------


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General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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