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Re: Karma comes around, does it? [Re: MentalHygene]
    #584693 - 03/20/02 09:47 PM (22 years, 1 month ago)

"Maybe the fact that these people were the epitome of our rediculously capitalist society"

Yes those janitors, firefighters, mail clerks, receptionists etc. epitomize capitalism,
people working to provide something of value to others so they can receive
something they value. Yes, instant karma got them greedy bastards.

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Re: Karma comes around, does it? [Re: ]
    #584779 - 03/21/02 12:09 AM (22 years, 1 month ago)

Once again my typing comes across as it was not meant to.  I really don't think that any of those folks deserved to die on 9-11!!!!!  I just thought it would be humorous in response to the whole killing bugs thing.  Oh well, maybe karma will get me for making such an unkind remark! :smile:


Edited by MentalHygene (03/21/02 12:10 AM)

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Re: Karma comes around, does it? [Re: geokills]
    #584824 - 03/21/02 01:03 AM (22 years, 1 month ago)

We Westerners tend to view karma as some mechanical type LAW that exacts"full payment" from us for our moral infractions. NOT SO!! At least according to many Buddhist I have the privelege to spend time with and learn from. Buddhism actually takes the complete opposite view. Only when we see fully the ramifications of karma can we understand who we are and why we are here, connect with the warmth and blessing of the world,and experience genuine compassion for other people.Beyond this, to understand that there is no "I"- but only the operation of impersonal karmic forces --is to attain the freedom of complete liberation.
Many may not be aware that Buddhism's concept of karma highlights 2 seperate types of karma.The first is the karma of result. This type shows us that every aspect of our lives is the result of actions we have performed in the past.Nothing is excluded in this, down to the number of eyelashes we have or the color of our fingernails and whether or not we are having a good day or a bad day.They represent what is given in our lives and, as the fruition of past actions,stand beyond our ability to make them other than what they are.

The second type is the karma of cause.It says that every action we perform in the present is going to produce results of some kind further down the road.Our minds and the actions produced from them are THAT powerful.
Everything we do AND think affects the future for us in ever-widening ripples of cause and effect.
Now, I'm sorry, but most people I know don't consider that the very thoughts they have on a daily basis...thoughts of anger, revenge, hurt,jealousy, envy...all of these things are what bring on our very personal karmic results. Everything we do, even if it's just sitting and spitting in the dust, brings consequences. Understanding Karma is so VERY important because it  really calls into question our natural tendency to just assume that, as long as we don't get caught, our actions (or thoughts) have no consequences!!!

It seems so simple to say "what comes around goes around" and basically it's true...BUT it goes so much deeper than that and the key in having a positive karmic slate is understanding that it is simply, EVERYTHING you think or do comes back to you.EVERYTHING!!!
Not always an easy thing to remember, even when you try real hard. :frown:  Be good to one another and do your best in life. The lessons of life come as they may, but we control how well and what we learn from them.


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Re: Karma comes around, does it? [Re: geokills]
    #585163 - 03/21/02 10:19 AM (22 years, 1 month ago)

I look at karma as a plate spinning on a stick. If everything is balanced, the plate spins nice and flat. As something happens out of balance the plate starts to wobble. Karma, both "good" and "bad" are the "up" and "down" wobbles in the plate.

The problem people have with karma is they believe if they do lots of good, then good will come back to them. I don't feel this is true. By doing lots of "good", you are simply adding more wobble to the plate. It is no different than if you were doing lots of "bad". The wobble is going to come back to you, but there is no telling if it will be the upswing or the downswing.

The only way to win with karma is to do nothing allowing karma to dissolve away from you.

Karma is baggage.
Good, evil, it matters not.
Baggage is baggage.

Just another spore in the wind.

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Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
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Re: Karma comes around, does it? [Re: Seuss]
    #585381 - 03/21/02 02:41 PM (22 years, 1 month ago)

Karma is another one of these metaphysical theories that can neither be proven nor refuted. Because of that, it means nothing to me as the arguments for and against are equally valid / invalid. It is just an idea to help people to accept the crap that goes on in life, but has no apparent reality to it.


The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Karma comes around, does it? [Re: Swami]
    #586185 - 03/22/02 09:17 AM (22 years, 1 month ago)

I think I see what you are saying and I even agree up to a point but in your opinion, do you think there is a "divine order" to this life or is it just all random?
I believe in a divine plan or order-like I am here for a purpose and I am here to learn and do certain things.... This is what I do in life.... I search out and find the "meaningful" things to do which I believe I was put here to do.
I guess I believe this because without this belief I would pretty much have a self destructive attitude of "fuck the world" (with apologies to any "Chinos" reading).
If its just "random" why should I even try....I guess is the point I'm trying to make. You know why post here and try to help someone or give a different perspective if it is all meaningless?
I'm not saying this is your view Swami I'm just trying to understand myself, you, the universe, and why I seek to understand at all if its all random and there's no point to anything......
God, I sound tired and messed up even to myself while reading this.....

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Eggshell Walker

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Re: Karma comes around, does it? [Re: Tannis]
    #586226 - 03/22/02 10:07 AM (22 years, 1 month ago)

Karma and "purpose" are tools for us to handle things that cannot be handled. Let's say your sweet little girl gets raped and murdered and the murderer is never caught.

You can go crazy trying to figure it out, fall into a suicidal depression or tell yourself that the murderer will someday get his comeupance and that your little girl's life fulfilled some God-given purpose. Those outlooks can help you to cope. That makes the concepts utilitarian.

However, that does not make them true.

Everything seems pretty random to me. Spiritual karma, if it exists, is totally invisible when looking at the outside world. I see no evidence for it and great deal against it. We all know many good people who have been bashed on the rocks and many evil people who have been blessed with outward success.


The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Karma comes around, does it? [Re: ]
    #586368 - 03/22/02 01:03 PM (22 years, 1 month ago)

> karma of result. This type shows us that every aspect of
> our lives is the result of actions we have performed in the
> past.

this is an interesting theory, however i cannot bring myself to believe that i have ever been through past lives. now i don't kno this for sure, and am possibly just ignorant, but my personal beliefs tell me that although the energy that comprises all of us will continue throughout time, it is not all focused directly into another conscious being. and as for "everything we do AND think [affecting] the future for us" ... well that may explain why i feel like i've been cut short in the good karma field - because i have some ugly thoughts fly through my head, although i never have and (hopefully) never will have the urge to act on these thoughts, they simply come to me in any states of anger and/or sadness that i may be consumed with at the time.

tannis - i really like the way you reasoned karma, and your explanation seems fairly failsafe, however as was stated and i agree: i suppose this issue can never in fact be proven. but it would be a nice thought to accept - simply because it would allow anyone to give reason to their daily actions instead of having "a self destructive attitude of 'fuck the world'," which unfortunately i have at times. i don't see any reason for it all, and all the institutions created by society seem so meaningless - unless their only true purpose is to pass time until our individual time is up and the next generation of humans can continue the trend of busying themselves with unimportant things to make their lives appear useful.

so after all this, i am inclined to agree with swami and believe that karma is simply a concept to help people cope with the "shit happens" aspects of life.

> If its just "random" why should I even try

although i do think that most everything is random, it is not to say that i'm just going to give up and lay on a couch for the rest of my life, or even worse, kill myself. i can still find personally fullfilling activities to occupy myself with, and i will be nice to others because i enjoy seeing other people happy.. not because i am expecting anything in return (although from what i previously understood of karma, i would have expected that kindness to come back around).

a great read so far.. keep those thoughts flowin'


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