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 geokills
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 Karma comes around, does it? 
#580828 - 03/16/02 07:47 PM (22 years, 8 months ago) |
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i've been hearing a lot about karma lately. particularly from the Burning Bridges thread i just read in otd, however i've been hearing it mentioned by people i know and on the television. the thing is, it seems that too many good people are getting fucked over. how can so many people put faith in this theory when quite frankly, i have not seen anyone attest to it actually working regarding their own life choices and resulting events.
i feel like i'm good person. i never start shit with people. i will never be mean to anyone who has not pushed me to the absolute edge. i try to do what i think is best, not just for myself, but for everyone involved. .. so this is why i don't understand why i am so miserable. i thought it would be easy to wait for the girl of my dreams. i was wrong. each time i'm with her seems more painful than the previous. each time it seems like she misses me more and is very affectionate, but keeps holding back. i woke up to the most unpleasant news this morning after she crawled into bed with me and we lazed away the morning hours, now it's haunting me and i think it is the reason i'm feeling so ill right now. i have finals next week and wanted to come home and see her 'cause her break was right before mine, but i'm worse off now than i was last week without her.
so does anyone win in this karma deal? i think not, but will wait to be proven wrong (hopefully) 
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┼ ··∙ long live the shroomery ∙·· ┼
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Anonymous
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 Re: Karma comes around, does it? [Re: geokills]
#580928 - 03/16/02 09:42 PM (22 years, 8 months ago) |
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hmmm...
*i'm an idiot*
Edited by Smack31 (03/20/02 12:26 AM)
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 sir tripsalot
Administrator
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Re: Karma comes around, does it? [Re: geokills]
#580933 - 03/16/02 09:46 PM (22 years, 8 months ago) |
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I don' treat it like a magical phenominom(sp?). I treat it more like "You fucked me over and if you ever want anything from me foget it." Take for example something that happened at my work. Somebody was stabbed and there was a HUGE fight outside. Being that I was there I was one of the best witnesses to the incident becasue only myslef and 2 others were not on any sides. Now for the "karma" before the incident there was a guy with one of the groups talking a bit of shit before things escalated, but he left. This kids a mouthy little shit and rude to me each time he comes in, also makes my job difficult trying to sneak in.
So when I was to identify the people who were there I could have easily negleted to mention him cause i was pretty sure he left but I didnt and made sure he was identified as being with one of the groups( possible instigator).I took the karma into my hands.
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"Little racoons and old possums 'n' stuff all live up in here. They've got to have a little place to sit." Bob Ross.
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Divine_Madness
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Re: Karma comes around, does it? [Re: geokills]
#581425 - 03/17/02 02:11 PM (22 years, 8 months ago) |
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I have been strugling with thoughts on karma for months and months. Always thinking it just couldnt be logical and couldnt be real.
The problem with karma is that it is very hard to understand for todays society, somehow.
When I finally gave up with trying to understand it (and gave up a lot of other things) it finally came to me.
Lately Im experiencing more and more which explains karma to me and makes it more and more logical.
It isnt at all what I first thought is was.
The reason karma is so hard to understand, is becouse our own world is so complex.
Its a simple rule, made horreble sophisticated by the actions of consiousness.
The main itch for your karma are your thoughts and emotions.
For example: if you like something in excess, you will later dislike it in excess. If you dont want something, you will later.
If this seems not, its just stretching.
The stretching is the main couse of reincarnation, and reincarnation explains bad karma when doing good. Its becouse youve been bad in a previous life.
Just observe, and you will find out.
The best thing against karma is to let go.
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its all placebo
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Swami
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Re: Karma comes around, does it? [Re: Divine_Madness]
#581455 - 03/17/02 02:56 PM (22 years, 8 months ago) |
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Karma to me is more of a Newtonian action / reaction thing than a spiritual concept.
Israel attacks Palestine; Palestine attacks Israel - violence begets violence.
On a personal arena, drink heavily and you will get a hangover and decreased health. Drive drunk and you may pay a heavy price to society, but it is not guaranteed.
I don't believe that there is any cosmic score-keeping going on.; i.e. if I do an act of kindness a return act sometime in the future is guaranteed to me or that it balances out a mean thing that I did.
Good does not always prevail.
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The proof is in the pudding.
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Sclorch
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Re: Karma comes around, does it? [Re: Swami]
#581580 - 03/17/02 05:39 PM (22 years, 8 months ago) |
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Swami,
I don't believe in predestination (or determinism either). I also know that good does not always prevail. I don't know if there is such a thing as karma, but I have had some FUCKED UP experiences that I don't think can be chalked up as purely coincidence.
I have actual documentation (videotape) of some of these "coincidental" happenings. You know, it's funny how much more often these experiences happen when I am under the influence. But I can assure you, they DID happen- it was no hallucination. They usually blindside me. I cannot predict anything. Shit does come around. My brother got his ass kicked by a bunch of kids and one by one, they've each had their lives totally fucked... except one, the only kid who apologized and (I'm damn sure) was actually sorry for what he did (rather than just regretting his punishment). My father got screwed in a business deal 20 years ago by three of his then-friends. One died of cancer, one was shot and killed by his girlfriend/wife/whatever, and the other ended up as a bum. I have some really long stories of my own, but I don't feel like airing my personal life here.
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Note: In desperate need of a cure...
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Anonymous
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Re: Karma comes around, does it? [Re: Swami]
#581614 - 03/17/02 06:32 PM (22 years, 8 months ago) |
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Swami, if you understood reincarnation you would realize it all balances out.
You just have to wait for your next life and you'll see, but at that point you will
have forgotten why you're getting what you deserve. You should realize that
life is all one big cruel joke and the intergalactic soul council is composed of
some real cruel bastards who sit in the 6th dimension laughing their asses off
at the ephemeral misfortunes of the lower level souls.
... or, maybe not.
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Swami
Eggshell Walker
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Re: Karma comes around, does it? [Re: ]
#581697 - 03/17/02 08:32 PM (22 years, 8 months ago) |
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This is my next life.
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The proof is in the pudding.
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tak
geo's henchman
Registered: 11/20/00
Posts: 3,776
Loc: nowhereland
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Re: Karma comes around, does it? [Re: Swami]
#582945 - 03/19/02 12:47 AM (22 years, 8 months ago) |
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Hate to say it, but no. It does not come back. Just kidding! Actually its probably you. Sad but true. Not just you, but everyone. Usually when someone good happens its ..yay thsi is good.. then when its gone is the sad times we curse the bad, and think nothing good happens because we are currently in the bad, and the good seemed so short (time flys when you're having fun) Next time something good's going on come talk about karma, it wont happen cause it will be too good!
Thats just 1 theory! Other is uh yeah it should maybe? :P never does for me, usually, who knows. I take alot more shit than i should, and i dont get nearly what i feel i deserve, it sucks. I just try to keep a good mindset about it all. I usually try and think posative about something by putting someone else down. Not a single person, but lets say people are just pissing me off today, and im ready to break out the machine gun...instead of getting mad i just say 'im better than them fools' and it helps :P works with alot of things!
When it comes to love, theres no fucking around! I dont know what to say cause i kinda 1/2 way in between thoughts. One of my opinions is "if its meant to be true, then it will happen, no matter what" wich makes me happy when i feel it should, but then i think "i have control, no one else" Kinda str8 out of hte matrix. :P Anyways, idont know so i cant say "if its love its gotta happen, let it flow" but i dont know if saying "do what you need to" is right either! just live thourgh it and do what feels right knowing what happens happens and no matter what, in the end you have the power to do it. You do nothing but say nice stuff, and help people out, im sure someones looking out for you, you're a great person =] Again...lessons are also fucked up in disguise. I remember i was with this girl...She was head over heals for me...it was ok, i ignored her, notthinking it was bad, i had her when i wanted her, she was always there, but only when i wanted. I broke up with her after that. Then i feel in LOOOVVEEE with this girl, the best girl ever, she was the girl of my dreams...i was there when she wanted me, and only when she wanted me, when i wanted her she ignored me. DOH! I now know how it feels. She is a good friend of mine still, and not the one, but at the time i thought diffrent things, and i feel it was a great lesson. Not sayingits hte same lesson! but alot of shit happens for certain reasons...
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The DJ's took pills to stay awake and play for seven days.
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kyuss
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Re: Karma comes around, does it? [Re: tak]
#583346 - 03/19/02 12:20 PM (22 years, 8 months ago) |
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for the want of a nail, a horseshoe was lost.
for the want of a horseshoe, a horse was lost.
for the want of a horse, a solidier was lost.
for the want of a soldier, an army was lost.
for the want of an army, the war was lost.
or something like that,
karma is the law of cause and effect but because the cause and the effect are one of the same, it becomes cyclical. hence actions alway come back to you. the bloke in the taoist thingy above could have been having a really bad day, wife nagging him kids wanting money, bills to pay ect. so he beat the crap out of his wife, and because his mind wasnt on the job (he made nails for a living you see) he lost a nail and hence the evil terrorists won the war and the nail maker got killed in the ensuing civil disorder.
All this because he lost a nail.
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nugsarenice
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Re: Karma comes around, does it? [Re: kyuss]
#583505 - 03/19/02 03:26 PM (22 years, 8 months ago) |
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I believe in Karma, the only problems are diagnosing and predicting causes and effects of this, in that way you can enlighten yourself about what you know is true about karma. The fact is that, the term Karma, in it's meaining "what goes around comes around" can be understood in many different ways.
Real Examples:
"My theories" Direct Karma: I have 1300 dollars stolen. A year goes by. I give 4 500 dollars away to a complete stranger, a year goes by, then I meet a complete stranger who gives me 2000 dollars. Coincidence, I think not...
Indirect Karma: I sit and stare at a Buddha for hours, seeking an awnser, the next day I see a Buddhist Monk, (Very rare in East Coast U.s.a), and recieve my awnser. This is just coincidence, or in other words Karma... but indirectly, because my thoughts and questions "went around' and then came back with an awnser .
So that Karma can be interpretated as direct retribution for deeds, or so on...
So my next Karma project should be... ??? I guess I will have to wait for Karma to bring it to me.
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Swami
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Re: Karma comes around, does it? [Re: nugsarenice]
#583542 - 03/19/02 04:23 PM (22 years, 8 months ago) |
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"My theories" Direct Karma: I have 1300 dollars stolen. A year goes by. I give 4 500 dollars away to a complete stranger, a year goes by, then I meet a complete stranger who gives me 2000 dollars. Coincidence, I think not...
Very convincing! The Swam, who despite his ascerbic verbal repartee, is as honest and as non-violent a person you would ever want to meet has been:
A. Robbed at gunpoint
B. Had his house broken into
C. Had his car broken into
D. Had two bicycles stolen
E. Jumped and beaten by a gang of 13 youths
F. Attacked by the National Bull-riding Champion in a public place
All of these were totally unprovoked on my part. So much for your anecdotal evidence of karma. Now some Swami detractors may clap there hands with glee and go "See? There is karma!" Well, enjoy my misfortune, but it was undeserved in these cases with no previous acts committed of a like kind by me.
Pardon if this sounds like whining, because it isn't. That is not my style. These are just the crap of life and relate to nothing at all, but being in the wrong place at the wrong time.
How many people believe the victims of the WTC and their families "deserved" what they got? Not me!
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The proof is in the pudding.
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tak
geo's henchman
Registered: 11/20/00
Posts: 3,776
Loc: nowhereland
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Re: Karma comes around, does it? [Re: Swami]
#583841 - 03/20/02 12:19 AM (22 years, 8 months ago) |
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I dont think karma should be thought to be deserved. It should be more like "what goes around could come around" ... I dont think if you do something nice you should expect something niceto be done to you. It would be nice if it happend, but the purpose is to do something nice regardless of the reward. Same as doing bad, doing good right after doesnt make the bad not happen, but it could change some things. I think it can happen many ways...If you do nice things, people are likely to do nice htings to you, same if you do bad things. If you do nice things, you generally have a better mindset, and will be rewarded. Just shit like that. I dont think the whole world is controlled by karma, shit happens. The WTC people didnt deserve what they got, but maybe the United States, who the attack was aimed at did? I dont know, im not saying we did, but there are more factors than that too it, and once again.,..shit happens. :P
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The DJ's took pills to stay awake and play for seven days.
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Divine_Madness
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Re: Karma comes around, does it? [Re: Swami]
#584116 - 03/20/02 09:53 AM (22 years, 8 months ago) |
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How many people believe the victims of the WTC and their families "deserved" what they got? Not me!
I do!
And if you look at the facts, this could be just the beginning...
Swami, I notice that you have a very selective reply tactic....is this coincedence?
For me it actually looks like that the way you take on arguments and points, and use scientific back up, is the same way as shroomism believes his UFO stuff and writes his posts. You both seem to ignore the parts you cant explain with your convictions.
Sorry if these are wrong accusations, but this is the way I see it.
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its all placebo
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Divine_Madness
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Re: Karma comes around, does it? [Re: Divine_Madness]
#584127 - 03/20/02 10:03 AM (22 years, 8 months ago) |
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Ow, and the parts you named with israel and stuff, are only the more obvious karmatic reactions.
I also dont think their is some cosmic score keeping, but I think karma acts in some way the same as gravitiy, as soon as you stop going your own way, it pulls you down, and the farther you are, the longer it will take to have its full effect, but the effect will be way more heavy.
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its all placebo
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Swami
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Re: Karma comes around, does it? [Re: Divine_Madness]
#584136 - 03/20/02 10:19 AM (22 years, 8 months ago) |
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Swami, I notice that you have a very selective reply tactic....is this coincedence?
Coincidence with what? I usually point out the inconsistent logic in someone's statement, so, yes that is selective.
You both seem to ignore the parts you cant explain with your convictions.
A person's opinion about something cannot be refuted, but making inconsistent or illogical statments can be refuted.
In an earlier post, the poster used anecdotal evidence to support Karma. I used personal anecdotal evidence to refute that. (BTW, anecdotal evidence is not accepted as a valid argument in any school of logic).
If you have a problem with my style, then make a specific point rather than some vague generalization and I promise to respond thoughtfully.
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The proof is in the pudding.
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Tannis
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 Re: Karma comes around, does it? [Re: geokills]
#584355 - 03/20/02 02:40 PM (22 years, 8 months ago) |
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The easiest way I know to understand karma which I think I explained in the other thread....is to think of everything you do as a seed....whatever you plant will grow.
It doesn't mean "be good to others and then good will come to you." It's more plant the seed and the harvest will eventually come (if the crop is not destroyed) or if weeds or already existing plants haven't choked it out.... or some such thing....
Realize that I'm being "brief".....as books could be written about this and there would still be room for discussion.
Keep in mind that "doing good to others" is like planting a seed that will in fact produce according to "its kind" but it is not insurance against the normal everyday trials of life......
The other thing I have noticed with some people is that they throw their "negative harvests" at people around them. At work I know an individual who does really nasty things and then the people she is closest to suddenly have "bad" things start to happen to them. Kids get sick, the people themselves get sick, fires break out strangely at the time of interaction with this person, etc.,.
Again I'm being brief.....
The next thing to consider is that if you feel unworthy to receive good it has a tendency to elude you....the harvest (good or bad) can pass you by.
My personal feeling is that it does eventually work out to be equal in your life......
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nugsarenice
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Re: Karma comes around, does it? [Re: Tannis]
#584548 - 03/20/02 06:38 PM (22 years, 8 months ago) |
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When you asked whether the WTC victims deserved what they got, you were'nt taking into mind all the aspects of karma, because ...
1. those people killed many bugs and insects accidently as all people do, which inadvertantly throws bad karma at you, and karma can be brought upon someone in this manner, because karma can build "interest" theoretically, so even though that cockroache that the security guard killed that was in his house, was very small, and had a very small life force or energy, the interest built, which is a way to explain why karma produced this, against these people
Now, non believers may say that is the most ridiculous explanation of bad events, but this can be proved, persay, so that this explanation is better then none, or the most common christian explanation might be that, "God works in mysterious ways"
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MentalHygene
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Re: Karma comes around, does it? [Re: nugsarenice]
#584565 - 03/20/02 07:03 PM (22 years, 8 months ago) |
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Interesting, yet I highly doubt that these few thousand were the leading bug killers in America!!!!  Maybe the fact that these people were the epitome of our rediculously capitalist society. Just a thought.
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"WHATS THE USE OF AUTONOMY WHEN A BUTTON DOES IT ALL?"
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Swami
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Re: Karma comes around, does it? [Re: MentalHygene]
#584583 - 03/20/02 07:24 PM (22 years, 8 months ago) |
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...or most prosaic explanantion: they were just victims of a random occurence. Random in the sense that though the incident was preplanned, no specific people were targeted. They simply had "bad luck".
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The proof is in the pudding.
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Anonymous
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Re: Karma comes around, does it? [Re: MentalHygene]
#584693 - 03/20/02 09:47 PM (22 years, 8 months ago) |
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MentalHygene:
"Maybe the fact that these people were the epitome of our rediculously capitalist society"
Yes those janitors, firefighters, mail clerks, receptionists etc. epitomize capitalism,
people working to provide something of value to others so they can receive
something they value. Yes, instant karma got them greedy bastards.
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MentalHygene
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Re: Karma comes around, does it? [Re: ]
#584779 - 03/21/02 12:09 AM (22 years, 8 months ago) |
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Once again my typing comes across as it was not meant to. I really don't think that any of those folks deserved to die on 9-11!!!!! I just thought it would be humorous in response to the whole killing bugs thing. Oh well, maybe karma will get me for making such an unkind remark!
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"WHATS THE USE OF AUTONOMY WHEN A BUTTON DOES IT ALL?"
Edited by MentalHygene (03/21/02 12:10 AM)
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Anonymous
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 Re: Karma comes around, does it? [Re: geokills]
#584824 - 03/21/02 01:03 AM (22 years, 8 months ago) |
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We Westerners tend to view karma as some mechanical type LAW that exacts"full payment" from us for our moral infractions. NOT SO!! At least according to many Buddhist I have the privelege to spend time with and learn from. Buddhism actually takes the complete opposite view. Only when we see fully the ramifications of karma can we understand who we are and why we are here, connect with the warmth and blessing of the world,and experience genuine compassion for other people.Beyond this, to understand that there is no "I"- but only the operation of impersonal karmic forces --is to attain the freedom of complete liberation.
Many may not be aware that Buddhism's concept of karma highlights 2 seperate types of karma.The first is the karma of result. This type shows us that every aspect of our lives is the result of actions we have performed in the past.Nothing is excluded in this, down to the number of eyelashes we have or the color of our fingernails and whether or not we are having a good day or a bad day.They represent what is given in our lives and, as the fruition of past actions,stand beyond our ability to make them other than what they are.
The second type is the karma of cause.It says that every action we perform in the present is going to produce results of some kind further down the road.Our minds and the actions produced from them are THAT powerful.
Everything we do AND think affects the future for us in ever-widening ripples of cause and effect.
Now, I'm sorry, but most people I know don't consider that the very thoughts they have on a daily basis...thoughts of anger, revenge, hurt,jealousy, envy...all of these things are what bring on our very personal karmic results. Everything we do, even if it's just sitting and spitting in the dust, brings consequences. Understanding Karma is so VERY important because it really calls into question our natural tendency to just assume that, as long as we don't get caught, our actions (or thoughts) have no consequences!!!
It seems so simple to say "what comes around goes around" and basically it's true...BUT it goes so much deeper than that and the key in having a positive karmic slate is understanding that it is simply, EVERYTHING you think or do comes back to you.EVERYTHING!!!
Not always an easy thing to remember, even when you try real hard. Be good to one another and do your best in life. The lessons of life come as they may, but we control how well and what we learn from them.
Namaste
~K~
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero
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Re: Karma comes around, does it? [Re: geokills]
#585163 - 03/21/02 10:19 AM (22 years, 8 months ago) |
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I look at karma as a plate spinning on a stick. If everything is balanced, the plate spins nice and flat. As something happens out of balance the plate starts to wobble. Karma, both "good" and "bad" are the "up" and "down" wobbles in the plate.
The problem people have with karma is they believe if they do lots of good, then good will come back to them. I don't feel this is true. By doing lots of "good", you are simply adding more wobble to the plate. It is no different than if you were doing lots of "bad". The wobble is going to come back to you, but there is no telling if it will be the upswing or the downswing.
The only way to win with karma is to do nothing allowing karma to dissolve away from you.
Karma is baggage.
Good, evil, it matters not.
Baggage is baggage.
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Just another spore in the wind.
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Swami
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Re: Karma comes around, does it? [Re: Seuss]
#585381 - 03/21/02 02:41 PM (22 years, 8 months ago) |
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Karma is another one of these metaphysical theories that can neither be proven nor refuted. Because of that, it means nothing to me as the arguments for and against are equally valid / invalid. It is just an idea to help people to accept the crap that goes on in life, but has no apparent reality to it.
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The proof is in the pudding.
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Tannis
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Re: Karma comes around, does it? [Re: Swami]
#586185 - 03/22/02 09:17 AM (22 years, 8 months ago) |
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I think I see what you are saying and I even agree up to a point but in your opinion, do you think there is a "divine order" to this life or is it just all random?
I believe in a divine plan or order-like I am here for a purpose and I am here to learn and do certain things.... This is what I do in life.... I search out and find the "meaningful" things to do which I believe I was put here to do.
I guess I believe this because without this belief I would pretty much have a self destructive attitude of "fuck the world" (with apologies to any "Chinos" reading).
If its just "random" why should I even try....I guess is the point I'm trying to make. You know why post here and try to help someone or give a different perspective if it is all meaningless?
I'm not saying this is your view Swami I'm just trying to understand myself, you, the universe, and why I seek to understand at all if its all random and there's no point to anything......
God, I sound tired and messed up even to myself while reading this.....
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Swami
Eggshell Walker
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Re: Karma comes around, does it? [Re: Tannis]
#586226 - 03/22/02 10:07 AM (22 years, 8 months ago) |
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Karma and "purpose" are tools for us to handle things that cannot be handled. Let's say your sweet little girl gets raped and murdered and the murderer is never caught.
You can go crazy trying to figure it out, fall into a suicidal depression or tell yourself that the murderer will someday get his comeupance and that your little girl's life fulfilled some God-given purpose. Those outlooks can help you to cope. That makes the concepts utilitarian.
However, that does not make them true.
Everything seems pretty random to me. Spiritual karma, if it exists, is totally invisible when looking at the outside world. I see no evidence for it and great deal against it. We all know many good people who have been bashed on the rocks and many evil people who have been blessed with outward success.
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The proof is in the pudding.
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geokills
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Registered: 05/08/01
Posts: 24,156
Loc: city of angels
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Re: Karma comes around, does it? [Re: ]
#586368 - 03/22/02 01:03 PM (22 years, 8 months ago) |
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> karma of result. This type shows us that every aspect of
> our lives is the result of actions we have performed in the
> past.
this is an interesting theory, however i cannot bring myself to believe that i have ever been through past lives. now i don't kno this for sure, and am possibly just ignorant, but my personal beliefs tell me that although the energy that comprises all of us will continue throughout time, it is not all focused directly into another conscious being. and as for "everything we do AND think [affecting] the future for us" ... well that may explain why i feel like i've been cut short in the good karma field - because i have some ugly thoughts fly through my head, although i never have and (hopefully) never will have the urge to act on these thoughts, they simply come to me in any states of anger and/or sadness that i may be consumed with at the time.
tannis - i really like the way you reasoned karma, and your explanation seems fairly failsafe, however as was stated and i agree: i suppose this issue can never in fact be proven. but it would be a nice thought to accept - simply because it would allow anyone to give reason to their daily actions instead of having "a self destructive attitude of 'fuck the world'," which unfortunately i have at times. i don't see any reason for it all, and all the institutions created by society seem so meaningless - unless their only true purpose is to pass time until our individual time is up and the next generation of humans can continue the trend of busying themselves with unimportant things to make their lives appear useful.
so after all this, i am inclined to agree with swami and believe that karma is simply a concept to help people cope with the "shit happens" aspects of life.
> If its just "random" why should I even try
although i do think that most everything is random, it is not to say that i'm just going to give up and lay on a couch for the rest of my life, or even worse, kill myself. i can still find personally fullfilling activities to occupy myself with, and i will be nice to others because i enjoy seeing other people happy.. not because i am expecting anything in return (although from what i previously understood of karma, i would have expected that kindness to come back around).
a great read so far.. keep those thoughts flowin'
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