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Re: The term [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #21209342 -

The Ecstatic said:
That there is any reason at all to believe that genetics specific to one (or some) race(s) is a determining factor in criminality.


want to quote where i stated that? My only position is that genetics make some individuals more prone to violent tendencies and behaviors. I never said any particular race was more likely to posses said genetics.


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Think for yourself, question authority

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Re: The term [Re: psyconaught]
    #21209421 -

psyconaught said:
My only position is that genetics make some individuals more prone to violent tendencies and behaviors.


Do you have evidence to support that claim?

EDIT: In going back through what you wrote in this thread (I missed a lot of it), I realize that you were careful not to implicate entire populations as having genetic tendencies to certain actions. The evidence for your above claim is clear. I have no objections to the statement, with the understanding that such cases have been rare.

My objection would be to the implication that genetics could affect the behavior of an entire race (or more accurately, population), but you never made that claim.


--------------------
DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor :alientransform: and Ferdinand :cigar:, the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.

Edited by BoldAsLove (02/01/15 03:56 PM)

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Re: The term [Re: BoldAsLove]
    #21210310 -

psyconaught said:
Smokey420 said:
qman said:
soochi said:
white privilege still exists. You may not think so, but it does. Your whiteness may be whats blinding you to that fact or you live in a very homogenous area of the country devoid of culture or progress.

the problem with white people is that they love to get in everyone else's business, hence you don't see asians being persecuted to the same degree for having "asian privilege"


"the problem with white people is that they love to get in everyone else's business"

You mean like killing, raping, physically assaulting, stealing, and victimizing people of other race's?  Nope, the crime statistics would clearly show it's black people that have the problem of getting into "everyone else's business".



Do you know why there is a higher crime rate in black communities? Because they're impoverished. Violence isn't a trait of a race, that's fucking offensive Nazi eugenics shit right there.


to deny that certain traits can be inherent of a culture is just ignorant. It doesnt have to be related to genetics at all.


Right here.

Either

A) you're substituting the word race for culture, which would make you wrong.

or B) you're claiming traits of a culture are inherent, which would make you equally wrong. Culture is fluid, it's not inherent in anything.

Besides, people reacting to culture is exactly what I've been saying is the cause of crime all along: environment.


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Re: The term [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #21210896 -

Genetic polymorphisms in populations quite possibly make a difference in behavior, addiction potential, etc.  Some things are caused by genetics.  Not saying violence in blacks is, but there are recent studies concerning genetic polymorphisms that suggest a genetic component to violent behavior.

Here is a statement from an article on Brunner's Syndrome:

"Brunner's findings have been used to argue that genetics, rather than decision-making processes, can cause criminal activity.[8]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brunner_syndrome


This is a recent discovery, but it opens up a lot of questions on genetics.  It is already known that African populations have a lesser propensity to detoxify substrates of enzyme 2YPD6 (which deactivates cocaine, etc) than whites (and whites less than asians) and this in African populations is caused by a genetic mutation that protects them from infection with malaria.

So certainly the statement that violence is not 'race' related and is all due to environment might not be entirely accurate.

And also, the term 'race' isn't really appropriate. 'Race' meaning 'skin color' to many people is merely a genetic variation.  'Population' meaning a group that has evolved under similar conditions in a similar region would be a more appropriate way to state it.


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Re: The term [Re: starfire_xes]
    #21211089 -

starfire_xes said:
Genetic polymorphisms in populations quite possibly make a difference in behavior, addiction potential, etc.  Some things are caused by genetics.  Not saying violence in blacks is, but there are recent studies concerning genetic polymorphisms that suggest a genetic component to violent behavior.

Here is a statement from an article on Brunner's Syndrome:

"Brunner's findings have been used to argue that genetics, rather than decision-making processes, can cause criminal activity.[8]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brunner_syndrome




Genetic polymorphism typically refers to phenotypes with a frequency of greater than 1% of the total population, and I don't believe that the point mutation implicated in Brunner's syndrome is that prevalent. As far as I know, it was only found in a handful of families. I'm not sure, though, so if you can point to a source showing otherwise, I'd be interested.

Quote:
This is a recent discovery, but it opens up a lot of questions on genetics. 



Not really. This has been known since the early '90s.

Quote:
So certainly the statement that violence is not 'race' related and is all due to environment might not be entirely accurate.



This is correct, but I've yet to see any evidence suggesting that genetics plays a role. On the other hand, evidence does exist that poverty and other environmental factors are correlated.


--------------------
DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor :alientransform: and Ferdinand :cigar:, the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.

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Re: The term [Re: BoldAsLove]
    #21211217 -

I didn't say Brunner's Syndrome was the end-all cause.  I pointed out what the article said--it is an example of a genetic variation that causes behavioral issues.

And in genetics, bioscience etc, 'where there is one, there is more.....'  Also africans as a population are prone to more problems with certain drugs because of genetics.  that you can definitely find a lot of research on, which I mentioned.

And here is what this point is about.  Ecstatic said 'because they are impoverished'  Guess what?  That doesn't give license for bad behavior.  On the other hand if a person has a genetic disorder that causes them to act out, I would think that they are not responsible for their actions.

By the way, in genetics, 1993 is very recent.  That's what I meant by 'recent discovery'


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Re: The term [Re: starfire_xes]
    #21211338 -

starfire_xes said:
I didn't say Brunner's Syndrome was the end-all cause.  I pointed out what the article said--it is an example of a genetic variation that causes behavioral issues.




But you did refer to it as a polymorph, which it isn't. Calling Brunner's a genetic variation implies that it is far more common than it is. It is a mutation.

Behavioral changes due to Brunner's are exceedingly rare as far as I know. But again, please provide a source that says otherwise if that isn't true.

Quote:
And in genetics, bioscience etc, 'where there is one, there is more.....'  Also africans as a population are prone to more problems with certain drugs because of genetics.  that you can definitely find a lot of research on, which I mentioned.




Are you trying to say that because Brunner's Syndrome exists there may be genetic variations that cause African populations, as a whole, to act more violently?

I think I'm confused about what your claim is. Sure, genetics might play a role; anything is possible. I've yet to see any evidence suggesting that is the case though.

Quote:
And here is what this point is about.  Ecstatic said 'because they are impoverished'  Guess what?  That doesn't give license for bad behavior.  On the other hand if a person has a genetic disorder that causes them to act out, I would think that they are not responsible for their actions.



Agreed, poverty doesn't give any one the right to behave poorly. It might, however, explain why someone (or a group) behaves poorly.

Quote:
By the way, in genetics, 1993 is very recent.  That's what I meant by 'recent discovery'


No, it isn't. I spent the last five years doing genetic research and published a few papers. We have made massive strides in genetic research, especially in human genetics, in the last decade alone. Something published 22 years ago is not considered recent, let alone "very recent".


--------------------
DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor :alientransform: and Ferdinand :cigar:, the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.

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Re: The term [Re: starfire_xes]
    #21211342 -

Quote:
A) you're substituting the word race for culture, which would make you wrong.

or B) you're claiming traits of a culture are inherent, which would make you equally wrong. Culture is fluid, it's not inherent in anything.

Besides, people reacting to culture is exactly what I've been saying is the cause of crime all along: environment.


i never said the traits were genetic. For instance male circumcision is inherent of the jewish culture.


--------------------
Think for yourself, question authority

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Re: The term [Re: BoldAsLove]
    #21211364 -

BoldAsLove said:
psyconaught said:
My only position is that genetics make some individuals more prone to violent tendencies and behaviors.


Do you have evidence to support that claim?

EDIT: In going back through what you wrote in this thread (I missed a lot of it), I realize that you were careful not to implicate entire populations as having genetic tendencies to certain actions. The evidence for your above claim is clear. I have no objections to the statement, with the understanding that such cases have been rare.

My objection would be to the implication that genetics could affect the behavior of an entire race (or more accurately, population), but you never made that claim.


Glad we're on the same page! :billymaythumbup: The Texas clock tower shooter is one extreme example of a genetic disorder (a tumor) causing violent behavior. I think it'd be interesting if further study was done to see just how much of a part genetics play in a predisposition to violent behavior.


--------------------
Think for yourself, question authority

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Re: The term [Re: psyconaught]
    #21211426 -

psyconaught said:
Quote:
A) you're substituting the word race for culture, which would make you wrong.

or B) you're claiming traits of a culture are inherent, which would make you equally wrong. Culture is fluid, it's not inherent in anything.

Besides, people reacting to culture is exactly what I've been saying is the cause of crime all along: environment.


i never said the traits were genetic. For instance male circumcision is inherent of the jewish culture.


Then I don't get why youre bringing up genetics. It seems you agree with me that crime is a result of environment.


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Re: The term [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #21211492 -

The Ecstatic said:
psyconaught said:
Quote:
A) you're substituting the word race for culture, which would make you wrong.

or B) you're claiming traits of a culture are inherent, which would make you equally wrong. Culture is fluid, it's not inherent in anything.

Besides, people reacting to culture is exactly what I've been saying is the cause of crime all along: environment.


i never said the traits were genetic. For instance male circumcision is inherent of the jewish culture.


Then I don't get why youre bringing up genetics. It seems you agree with me that crime is a result of environment.


It seems like you're having a hard time following, multiple conversations and topics are going between multiple posters.
I think behavior is a combination of genetics and environment. What percentage each contributes is unknown i think, most likely its different for each individual. Now is a culture part of the environment? Absolutely, this isn't a black and white issue, there are many different facets. Does the "system" cause certain subcultures to be in poverty? Or does the behavior of a subculture lead to poverty? Who knows, i think to claim absolute certainty either way is ignorant.


--------------------
Think for yourself, question authority

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Re: The term [Re: BoldAsLove]
    #21211982 -

So identical mutations appear in multiple different families within a non-correlated (to some extent) sample at the same time?  Why?  Im curious.

And my point was only that Brunner's syndrome is now being cited, according to that article, to suggest that genetics may play a role in criminal behavior. 

And I think that say, schizophrenia or bipolar disorder, both of which can cause criminal type behavior, are probably genetic traits in some cases, since they occur in related families at higher rates than within the general population.  Of course I don't think it is proven yet.

Which leads back to the core point: Claiming that there may be a genetic component to criminal behavior doesn't make a person a racist.  Things are a lot grayer than the cut-and-dried argument that ecstatic gave that 'because they are impoverished' and calling out people for being racist for suggesting otherwise.

Things are never that cut-and-dried.  there are a lot of grey areas, and you should know that if you do research.

I'd venture to guess that someday they will discover that environment AND genetics both play a role.


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Re: The term [Re: starfire_xes]
    #21212855 -

starfire_xes said:
So identical mutations appear in multiple different families within a non-correlated (to some extent) sample at the same time?  Why?  Im curious.




My guess, which is probably at least partially wrong, is that that particular region of DNA is more susceptible to mutation. Brunner's is caused by a point mutation, changing a glutamine residue into a stop codon. It stops translation, truncating part of the enzyme. A point mutation is not all that unlikely, so it's not out of the question that it's just a coincidence.

This is also probably a rare example where a single point mutation would provide such a clearly noticeable result. Which is why it was easy to study, draw correlations from, and publish.

Quote:
And my point was only that Brunner's syndrome is now being cited, according to that article, to suggest that genetics may play a role in criminal behavior. 




I think that's inaccurate. The initial paper was "Abnormal behavior associated with a point mutation in the structural gene for monoamine oxidase A." They say, "Thus, isolated complete MAOA deficiency in this family is associated with a recognizable behavioral phenotype that includes disturbed regulation of impulsive aggression" which could easily be associated with crime.

Quote:
Which leads back to the core point: Claiming that there may be a genetic component to criminal behavior doesn't make a person a racist.  Things are a lot grayer than the cut-and-dried argument that ecstatic gave that 'because they are impoverished' and calling out people for being racist for suggesting otherwise.




It's definitely not racist to suggest that there is a possibility that genetics is involved. However, I think it would be inaccurate to imply that there is any evidence at this time that genetics is correlated to or causing the crime. But if you have studies that show otherwise I would be interested to read them.

Quote:
Things are never that cut-and-dried.  there are a lot of grey areas, and you should know that if you do research.

I'd venture to guess that someday they will discover that environment AND genetics both play a role.


I never said things were cut and dry and that environment was the only factor. You're right, things are rarely clear and simple. Many interacting factors are involved in virtually every field.


--------------------
DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor :alientransform: and Ferdinand :cigar:, the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.

Edited by BoldAsLove (02/01/15 09:02 PM)

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Re: The term [Re: psyconaught]
    #21212944 -

psyconaught said:
The Ecstatic said:
psyconaught said:
Quote:
A) you're substituting the word race for culture, which would make you wrong.

or B) you're claiming traits of a culture are inherent, which would make you equally wrong. Culture is fluid, it's not inherent in anything.

Besides, people reacting to culture is exactly what I've been saying is the cause of crime all along: environment.


i never said the traits were genetic. For instance male circumcision is inherent of the jewish culture.


Then I don't get why youre bringing up genetics. It seems you agree with me that crime is a result of environment.


It seems like you're having a hard time following, multiple conversations and topics are going between multiple posters.
I think behavior is a combination of genetics and environment. What percentage each contributes is unknown i think, most likely its different for each individual. Now is a culture part of the environment? Absolutely, this isn't a black and white issue, there are many different facets. Does the "system" cause certain subcultures to be in poverty? Or does the behavior of a subculture lead to poverty? Who knows, i think to claim absolute certainty either way is ignorant.


Agreed, I'm just saying the genetics have no role in the disparity betwrrnnthe races, when it comes to crime. I think we're all predisposed to crime equally.


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Re: The term [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #21213274 -

http://topconservativenews.com/2012/06/does-maoa-gene-make-black-people-more-violent/

"People who have a shorted MAOA gene do not produce a protein needed to break down oil serotonin in their brains. These people are more likely to be agitated, aggressive, and impulsive."

"...only .5% of whites have the 2 repeat allele version compared to 4.7% blacks"

"That means blacks are 9.4 times more likely to have the extremely dysfunctional version of the gene than whites. Considering that black Americans are 9 times more likely to commit murder, this is very significant."

There's a video inside the link that's worth watching.

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Re: The term [Re: qman]
    #21213565 -

Holy shit, I've seen articles misrepresent studies before, but this one has to be in the top 10 for their blatant lies. Let me quote some of the relevant excerpts from the actual study:

"In this study, we found that MAOA polymorphism did not significantly regulate ASPD trait scores in either whites or African Americans when each population as a whole was analyzed."

"In subjects without a history of childhood physical abuse, we found that the VNTR MAOA promoter polymorphism did predict ASP in whites, but not African Americans."

"For example, Widom and Brzustowicz found that high levels of MAOA activity were protective only in whites but not in non–white populations."

So the paper itself said that they didn't find a correlation between MAOA and ASP (let alone crime) in blacks and they cited another study that found a similar result. Then this biased news article uses it to imply that MAOA has to do with the black population's crime rates. The study did found a correlation in white populations, but no mention of that appears in the news article. Horribly inaccurate, and if intentional, highly dishonest. Here's another quote:

"Environmental factors that differ by race may also play a role in generating the racial difference we observed including economic and other disparities in the childhood of African Americans and whites"

So this study is saying that environmental factors play an important role, but no mention of that in the biased news article.

This is why it is important to be careful where you get your information from and to check your sources. This kind of misrepresentation is common in news articles trying to discuss studies. You cannot make a strong case by drawing loose connections that aren't supported, or are even refuted, by current data. Bottom line, this article embarrasses itself.


--------------------
DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor :alientransform: and Ferdinand :cigar:, the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.

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Re: The term [Re: BoldAsLove]
    #21213597 -

You are so full of shit...



MAOA VNTR allele frequencies2 3 3.5 4 5Whites 0.50% 34.10% 1.20% 62.80% 1.40%African American 4.70% 48.70% 0.20% 45.50% 0.90%


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The life of a condemned soul is hatred.

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Re: The term [Re: SeaShrooms]
    #21213627 -

SeaShrooms said:
You are so full of shit...



MAOA VNTR allele frequencies2 3 3.5 4 5Whites 0.50% 34.10% 1.20% 62.80% 1.40%African American 4.70% 48.70% 0.20% 45.50% 0.90%


Seriously? Read the study in its entirety. They were never able to make a correlation between MAOA expression and anything in black populations. The study was only able to make conclusions about white populations. You and the authors of that news article can make associations between MAOA gene expression and crime if you want, but know that the data don't support you in the slightest. To take a study that you didn't conduct, didn't look at the raw data of, and apparently haven't read, and try and make a conclusion that the authors explicitly say they didn't find, is entirely incorrect at best and disingenuous at worst.


--------------------
DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor :alientransform: and Ferdinand :cigar:, the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.

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Re: The term [Re: BoldAsLove]
    #21213635 -

You are cherry picking the data, everything in the news article is 100% accurate and cited in the study.


--------------------
The life of a condemned soul is hatred.

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Re: The term [Re: BoldAsLove]
    #21213648 -

BoldAsLove said:
Holy shit, I've seen articles misrepresent studies before, but this one has to be in the top 10 for their blatant lies. Let me quote some of the relevant excerpts from the actual study:

"In this study, we found that MAOA polymorphism did not significantly regulate ASPD trait scores in either whites or African Americans when each population as a whole was analyzed."

"In subjects without a history of childhood physical abuse, we found that the VNTR MAOA promoter polymorphism did predict ASP in whites, but not African Americans."

"For example, Widom and Brzustowicz found that high levels of MAOA activity were protective only in whites but not in non–white populations."

So the paper itself said that they didn't find a correlation between MAOA and ASP (let alone crime) in blacks and they cited another study that found a similar result. Then this biased news article uses it to imply that MAOA has to do with the black population's crime rates. The study did found a correlation in white populations, but no mention of that appears in the news article. Horribly inaccurate, and if intentional, highly dishonest. Here's another quote:

"Environmental factors that differ by race may also play a role in generating the racial difference we observed including economic and other disparities in the childhood of African Americans and whites"

So this study is saying that environmental factors play an important role, but no mention of that in the biased news article.

This is why it is important to be careful where you get your information from and to check your sources. This kind of misrepresentation is common in news articles trying to discuss studies. You cannot make a strong case by drawing loose connections that aren't supported, or are even refuted, by current data. Bottom line, this article embarrasses itself.


The reason I posted it was to show that there's a growing study in this field, also the video is worth watching. Of course environmental factors play an important role, no one's denying that fact, but some people in this thread suggested genetics play NO role whatsoever.

Let's be honest, as science advances down the road, we will have more answers.

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