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Re: What are your beliefs and how did you get them? [Re: Evolving]
    #2119694 -

well said.

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Re: What are your beliefs and how did you get them? [Re: ]
    #2119782 -

Quote:
prove it!


with what?  logic?

aside from this particular conversation, logicality is the positive claim.  Illogicality is everywhere.  Or do the forests in your area grow in neat little rows and columns?  Confusion is the natural state of mind.  Did you pop out the twat with a formal education in logic, or was it taught to you?

there is a difference between observed order and imposed order.  Remember Hiesenberg.  I know I've brought up Godel's Incompleteness theorum before, but I doubt any of you logicians have taken the time to do your homework on it.  Then there's the second law of thermodynamics.  But of course, even these "laws" are themselves subject to question :wink:

Remember those word problems in grade school, where they purposely didn't include enough information to solve the problem, and the only right answer to the question was the admission that it was unsolvable?  I see the universe as one of those kinds of problems.  We can only see so far into the past (because of the speed of light) and we can only see so far into the future (because of the 2nd law of thermodynamics)  So we will probably never have all the information necessary to solve the problem.

Infinity itself is an illogical concept.  I believe the universe is infinite.  No, I cannot prove this, but the only way to disprove it would be to witness its end, and if that ever happens, I think that those who would debate the question with me would be concerned with more pressing matters at the time :smile:

well, I went off on a bit of a tanget here, but all I am really saying is that I disagree with GENERAL rationality itself.  Obviously, I can't justify that rationally.  Thats kind of the point. 

Don't get me wrong, though.  I see logic as a sometimes useful tool when concerned with specifics.  But in general terms, its useless.  The point is that logic is A tool, not THE tool, for understanding the universe.  Its usefull in some situations, and worthless in others, and I don't believe there are any strict rules governing exactly when it is usefull and when it isn't. 

Anyay, everytime i try to explain this to someone they call me crazy and unscrupulous.  But I'm actually a fairly moral and sane person in practice, I just refuse to subscribe to these principles as general rules.  They have their place and time like everything else- I'm not about to exhalt rationality over irrationality or vice versa. 

Oh well, If you disagree with what I said, please, just assume I'm a shitty debator and not that the idea is wrong.   

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Re: What are your beliefs and how did you get them? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2119880 -

Quote:
DoctorJ said:
aside from this particular conversation, logicality is the positive claim. Illogicality is everywhere.


Logic is one of the tools that we use to attempt to understand the universe. illogicality only exists in the mind. Logical reasoning only exists in the mind. (edit: it can also be programmed into a computer. However, GIGO.)

Quote:
Or do the forests in your area grow in neat little rows and columns? Confusion is the natural state of mind.


How is this a proof of illogicality or logicality?

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there is a difference between observed order and imposed order.


Can't you observe an imposed order?

Quote:
I see the universe as one of those kinds of problems.


The universe is not a problem, there is no illogic in it's operation or existence, there are only limits to human understanding. Logic is a tool which we can use in an attempt to understand the universe. This does not make the universe illogical. If our reasoning about the nature of the universe leads us to false conclusions, it is not the universe which is illogical but perhaps our thought processes, or our premises are invalid.

Quote:
Infinity itself is an illogical concept.


Why is it illogical?

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I see logic as a sometimes useful tool when concerned with specifics.


Exactly.

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But in general terms, its useless.


It has proven quite useful for many things, your statement doesn't make sense.

Quote:
The point is that logic is A tool, not THE tool, for understanding the universe.


So how does this make the universe illogical? Because the universe is not this tool we call 'logic?' Then, hammers are also illogical? Language is illogical?


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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Re: What are your beliefs and how did you get them? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2119939 -

ideas can be logical or illogical.

a tree is neither logical or illogical. nor is an ocean, or a mountain, or planet, or universe.

the universe is ordered, but it isn't logical or illogical.

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Re: What are your beliefs and how did you get them? [Re: Evolving]
    #2119979 -

Quote:
Logic is one of the tools that we use to attempt to understand the universe. illogicality only exists in the mind. Logical reasoning only exists in the mind.


On this, we agree. I'm merely stating that the universe is illogical when one adopts a logical frame of reference. It is a Non Sequitor. It does not add up. It is an effect without a cause. As Stephen Hawkings once said: "the universe is the ultimate free lunch."


Quote:
Can't you observe an imposed order?


certainly. The abscence of rules means that there are no rules against making rules. anarchism includes the possibility of fascism. But fascism is not the only possibility.



The universe is not a problem, there is no illogic in it's operation or existence, there are only limits to human understanding. Logic is a tool which we can use in an attempt to understand the universe. This does not make the universe illogical. If our reasoning about the nature of the universe leads us to false conclusions, it is not the universe which is illogical but perhaps our thought processes, or our premises are invalid.


agreed. But will we ever come up with a system that completely matches the nature of the universe? The burden of proof on that claim has yet to be settled, unless they've already found a Unified Field Theory and I just don't know about it. Even then, I would be pretty suspicious of a theory like that. Even the finding of such a system is kind of a logical paradox in itself, since the existence of such a set of rules would govern our chances of finding it as well.

Quote:
Why is it (infinity) illogical?


Don't even get me started on the logical paradoxes that come about when you try to analyze the concept of infinity logically. Suffice to say that the concept of something with no beginning or end doesn't really jibe with the tenets of polaric logic.


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Re: What are your beliefs and how did you get them? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2120040 -

do you believe that contradictory conditions can be simultaneously present?

do you even believe in the idea of a contradiction?

does 1+1 = 2, or does 1 + 1 = 3?

does 2 = 3?

does 1 + 1 = 1 + 1?

if A = B and B = C, does A = C?

if A = B, does B = A?

if A is not equal to B, does A = B?

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Re: What are your beliefs and how did you get them? [Re: ]
    #2120140 -

Quote:
do you believe that contradictory conditions can be simultaneously present?




generally, yes. specifically, no.

Quote:
do you even believe in the idea of a contradiction?




yes.

Quote:
does 1+1 = 2, or does 1 + 1 = 3?

does 2 = 3?

does 1 + 1 = 1 + 1?

if A = B and B = C, does A = C?

if A = B, does B = A?

if A is not equal to B, does A = B?




logic works real well when you're working with one dimensional abstractions (ie, 1, 2, 3, A, B, C, etc)

Try it with real world objects. Imagine two cars that come off an assembly line one right after the other. They look the same, were built the same, and function the same. Are they the same car? No. But that answer "no" doesn't tell the whole story. In many regards, yes, they are the same car. so, while they are not actually the same car, they are equivalent in many senses. Here we see a contradiction between a general answer and a specific answer to the same question.

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Re: What are your beliefs and how did you get them? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2120143 -

DoctorJ said:
... the universe is illogical when one adopts a logical frame of reference. It is a Non Sequitor. It does not add up. It is an effect without a cause. As Stephen Hawkings once said: "the universe is the ultimate free lunch."


Why do you assume that the universe is 'an effect?' Why does it need a cause? Maybe it just is. There is nothing illogical about that, it just doesn't fit with the way some think things have to be. We look at the universe from a perspective of profound ignorance and proclaim there must be a 'why' or a cause. To make any definitive claims seems illogical, not the universe.

Quote:
... anarchism includes the possibility of fascism.


Ah, now there's a political gem and the reason I cannot totally embrace anarchy. A total absence of a government was the precondition for the first government.

Quote:
But will we ever come up with a system that completely matches the nature of the universe?


I'm not holding my breath.

Quote:
Suffice to say that the concept of something with no beginning or end doesn't really jibe with the tenets of polaric logic.


'Polaric logic.?' As in binary? Why confine logical reasoning to this strait jacket? In saying that infinity 'doesn't jibe,' with the tenets of polaric logic does mean that you are relying on the premises that there has to be a beginning and/or that there has to be an end? Are these premises valid?

I can understand that since the existence of the universe cannot be explained from our perspective, that it can be said to be incomprehensible, I do not consider this the same as being illogical.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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Re: What are your beliefs and how did you get them? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2120147 -

logic has a place, and it works fine when used in the appropriate circumstances.

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Re: What are your beliefs and how did you get them? [Re: ]
    #2120152 -

that, I can agree with

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Re: What are your beliefs and how did you get them? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2120431 -

wait.. how is the universe fundamentally illogical, again?

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Re: What are your beliefs and how did you get them? [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #2120498 -

Quote:
I will try to continue to do...




Prozac??? Just kiding:)


--------------------

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