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OfflineOfaRevolution
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Deacidification in casing Ca Carbonate Vs. K Bicarconate
    #2102071 - 11/13/03 04:14 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

i recently went to a wine store to buy some calcium carbonate for my casing layer to neutrilize the ph and the guy told me he uses potassium bicarbonate and that it is better because it doesnt use a chalky residue, does anyone kinow if this will harm the shrooms*

*Potassium bicarboante is 1/3 times more powerful of a neutrulizer of acids then calcium bicarbonate


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Invisiblemicro
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Re: Deacidification in casing Ca Carbonate Vs. K Bicarconate [Re: OfaRevolution]
    #2102716 - 11/13/03 07:38 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

I don't see how potassium could hurt, but I've never used it in the casing. Just make sure to pH it, and see what happens....

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Invisibledeanofmean
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Re: Deacidification in casing Ca Carbonate Vs. K Bicarconate [Re: OfaRevolution]
    #2103635 - 11/13/03 11:26 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Potassium bicarbonate (073508) and Sodium bicarbonate (073505)
used as fungicides.
U.S. Environmental Protection Agency.


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Invisiblemicro
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Re: Deacidification in casing Ca Carbonate Vs. K Bicarconate [Re: deanofmean]
    #2103694 - 11/13/03 11:39 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Paul Stamets reccomends sodium bicarbonate as a remedy for Trichoderma. This is because Trichoderma prefers an acidic environment. This is interesting -- I'd like to know if it's used as a fungicide specificaly for plant pathogens, because he made no mention of it harming the basidiomycetes -- the article referenced gave no information regarding this. Any chance for more info???

Nothing under "sodium bicarbonate fungicide" comes up in PubMed, unfortunately....

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OfflineOfaRevolution
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Re: Deacidification in casing Ca Carbonate Vs. K Bicarconat [Re: micro]
    #2103709 - 11/13/03 11:42 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

ya that went way over my head do u think that my mushrooms are gonna be ok or are they doomed?


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Invisiblemicro
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Re: Deacidification in casing Ca Carbonate Vs. K Bicarconate [Re: micro]
    #2103816 - 11/14/03 12:02 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

micro said:
I don't see how potassium could hurt, but I've never used it in the casing. Just make sure to pH it, and see what happens....

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Invisibledeanofmean
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Re: Deacidification in casing Ca Carbonate Vs. K Bicarconate [Re: micro]
    #2103883 - 11/14/03 12:15 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

basically what it is, is salt .
so i guess it just depends on how much a specific fungus can handle .

i've seen it used to kill Trich, and mycelium didn't grow in the treated area after .


Edited by deanofmean (11/14/03 12:29 AM)


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Invisibledeanofmean
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Re: Deacidification in casing Ca Carbonate Vs. K Bicarconate [Re: micro]
    #2104125 - 11/14/03 01:17 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

micro said:
Any chance for more info???


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Potassium Bicarbonate Reduces Urinary Nitrogen Excretion in Postmenopausal Women  :grin: 

J/K but i also found  this


Edited by deanofmean (11/14/03 01:31 AM)


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Invisiblemicro
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Re: Deacidification in casing Ca Carbonate Vs. K Bicarconate [Re: deanofmean]
    #2106210 - 11/14/03 02:14 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Huh.... interesting! Tell us what happens, ofa....

Thanks for the info, dean!

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Invisibledeanofmean
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Re: Deacidification in casing Ca Carbonate Vs. K Bicarconate [Re: micro]
    #2107257 - 11/14/03 07:38 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

i think sodium bicarbonate (bakeing soda) is also used in bread to prevent mold .

and, i found this here

Bicarbonate ion has been identified as the probable cause of growth inhibition in some bacteria and fungi. The bicarbonate causes the collapse of hyphal walls and shrinkage of conidia (different parts of the fungus). In addition, pH elevation may also play a significant role.

Potassium bicarbonate is also used as grain preservative .
it's said to be effective for black spot and mildew .



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Offlinejustsmurfy
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Re: Deacidification in casing Ca Carbonate Vs. K Bicarconate [Re: deanofmean]
    #2107388 - 11/14/03 08:23 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Ummm, sodium bicarbonate is called 'baking soda' for a reason- it's a leavening agent used in baking. I don't believe it's used in baking to prevent mold.

From my old copy of 'Joy of Cooking' (1964):
'BICARBONATE OF SODA, OR BAKING SODA
This is often used in place of baking powder in recipes involving sour milk or some acid factor like molasses, honey, or spice. This combination gives one of the very tenderest crumbs.'

It made no mention of preventing mold. The importance of the acid factor when baking soda as a leavening agent it that the acid-base reaction ends up releasing carbon dioxide, which makes the bread or whatever 'rise', like when yeast ferments sugars and produces carbon dioxide, but faster. If baking soda does have anti-fungal properties, it seems iffy that enough would survive the leavening process to have much of any effect.

-JustSmurfy


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Invisibledoktor_alternate
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in solubility lies the answer! [Re: justsmurfy]
    #2109910 - 11/15/03 09:24 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

the only difference that calcium will make as a cation for the bicarbonate anion is in the product's solubility in water. both potassium and calcium fall very close together on the periodic table, thus they have similar atomic radii and and such, however, calcium carbonate is notoriously insoluble in water due to its more effective electron sharing with an oxygen on the bicarbonate ion. both are salts, and a salt will disolve in water when the water molecules co-ordinate around the charged species forming a solvation shell effectively separating the anion from the cation. once the bicarbonate anion if free it can pick up a proton to make carbonic acid, a weak acid, so youve got yourself a bit of a pH buffer.

potassium bicarbonate is more soluble in water than calcium bicarbonate giving up more bicarbonate ions to solution per gram of stuff, thus i would reccomond this for a more immediate neutralisation whereas the calcuim species is best for a more long term buffer action. your mushies, though, only living in that casing for... 2.5 months or so... probably do not need this longterm carbonate release. therefore i would reccommend sodium carbonate (not bicarbonate, this stuff is called 'washing soda') as your casing neutraliser. im not sure if straight sodium hydroxide will suffice for a few months of action, having never tried it, but you dont need anything long-term.

just be sure to neutralize your casing to a pH indicator paper and not by some recipie. if you retest later in the grow cycle to find that the pH has sunk, choose a more stable proton sink for your next run.

about its toted antifungal prop'z, the mode of action of these simple compounds is most probably to raise the pH to a toxic level to pathogenic fungi of only the direct outside surface of crops and things, as they are deployed by spraying. plants have an extrodinary ability to adsord ions to their surfaces making this application slightly more lonterm than if the ions would just wash off in the next rain.
http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/4718/67832
(and its subsequent links)
thus they won't act as 'antifungals' if you use them to raise the pH of your casing only to 7.


Edited by doktor_alternate (11/15/03 09:25 PM)


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OfflineOfaRevolution
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Re: in solubility lies the answer! [Re: doktor_alternate]
    #2123931 - 11/19/03 11:23 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

this is my first time growing but the mycellium didnt seem to be affected im am beginning to see pinning, so i believe i used an adequate amount of K bicarb any one who chooses to use this method just remmeberd K bicarb is 1/3 more powerful of an acid deduction then ca carb, thanks 4 the help all
OAR


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Invisiblemicro
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Re: in solubility lies the answer! [Re: OfaRevolution]
    #2127508 - 11/21/03 03:26 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Glad to hear it worked out!

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Invisibledoktor_alternate
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Re: in solubility lies the answer! [Re: OfaRevolution]
    #2127706 - 11/21/03 05:02 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

OfaRevolution said:
any one who chooses to use this method just remmeberd K bicarb is 1/3 more powerful of an acid deduction then ca carb, OAR




the truth is actually far more complex than that, though i would caution all of yall against adding a neutralising base according to some recipie. you gotta titrate it! use pH paper.


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Re: in solubility lies the answer! [Re: doktor_alternate]
    #2128238 - 11/21/03 09:22 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Lime, though (calcium carbonate, NOT calcium hydroxide which is hydrated lime) isn't bad though, since it's a weak base. I don't even bother pH'ing -- no reason if you have a formula that works....

Any strong base, though -- definately -- you MUST pH.

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