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the box we live in
    #2086192 -

ok this post will fit into many of the boards but I really want serious attention to it, as OTD was too much for me and political forum as even more in shambles. too much bickering and arguing, not enough debate. with that being said here I go...

I had this idea while delivering newspapers today, and I'm sure many of you have. we live in a box, and thus we need to try to think "outside the box" well here now I am gonna try to define different aspects of this box world we live in. we can discuss or just read, doesn't matter. you can even have your own input, that would be hella cool. right now I'm going to talk about money/expenses, how money is fake, and how it keeps us in worry and turmoil


1) paper money: so let us think on this for a second shall we??? here in the US we have this paper money, and what is it here for? it is here to represent something, precious metals and gold. these have "value" based on their rarity and their demand. with that in mind, this paper is supposed to represent this money? I asked myself, how so??? how can you put a value on it? where is this conversion factor?? Well I can honestly say the mint is more than happy to tell you, there isn't one. oh there used to be a long long time ago, but not anymore (there's a reason for that too btw but I won't get into that). look it up yourselves if you want, it isn't there, and they will tell you so.

so what does this mean, well think of this as an equation ok? a=b simple enough. a=precious metals and such, and b=paper money. in order for a=b we need some kind of conversion that will show these two objects or ideas are the same? Am I making sense so far?? well if there isn't any, then "a" can't ever equal "b" as a universal equation no??? instead it would have to rely on the value that we establsihed on it in our heads. knowing we are all different people, this could mean a wide range of variables. some people think paper is extremely valuable while others don't. "there's a lot of paper after all" some would agree others wouldn't.

what odes this mean?? it's fake!!!! fake in the sense that PAPER MONEY DOESN'T ACTUALLY REPRESENT WHAT IT IS SUPPOSED TO REPRESENT. and if you say it does, go out and show me this conversion, because that is the only way for paer money to be valid. again the mint tells us there isn't!!! we are really that stupid. we love that cash too. caress it as you put it in ypour pocket, knowing your ego all the while says with glee "THIS IS MINE"

2) credit: to further establish this box we have, we now have plastic to represent this fake money we have. on top of this, they want to charge us 15-20% interest. and really who's interests is this in hmmmm?? moving along, this is money popping OUT OF THE BLUE because they say they need this much to surivive as a company. most of the time they are relying on us to spend paper money WE DON'T HAVE. this is the essence of credit. this further puts us in debt, and it keeps our minds in worry and turmoil, creating the stress and furthering the illusions of this plastic life.

3) 2nd mortagages. oh those people love the owrds "consolidate"let's get a lower interest rate yah!! sure 6.75% is better than 20% but this is still crap. again what is the underlying factor here? to TAKE OUT MORE THAN THEY ALREADY HAVE. I'm sure you can see where I am going with this.


WE are allowed to take out money we don't have creating this fake debt that keeps on accumulating. what this does is it creates greed, jealousy, worry, all these power struggles and security struggles that our minds seem to enjoy to play in. it's so fake though and such a bother, when you look from an "outside the box" perspective, you can really see how clever this system really is.

this is but one part, there will be more, comments???


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.

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Re: the box we live in [Re: kaiowas]
    #2086236 -

1) Of course paper money does not equal gold or silver. We went off the gold standard in 1933, and we stopped printing our own money in 1913 when we decided (rather were conspired against) to borrow money from a private bank (the Federal Reserve), put ourselves into permanent debt, and let international bankers gain power over our country.

Even so, if the United States government printed its own money, it would still be backed by our confidence anyway, and there is not enough gold or silver in the vaults of the world to completely back any currency. So, unless you want to go back to bartering, what is your point? Money is convenient; we have been using it since ancient times, it is not the root of conformity and materialism, mass production and controlled media have more to do with that.

2) Credit is a system for suckers unless you are somewhat responsible, which most people are not. It is not the credit companies fault that you could not stop yourself from buying too much before it was too late. That is your fault, no one forces you to use a credit card, most people know what they are getting into, and it is not like it is some conspiracy. I highly doubt that it is keeping anybody inside any box; most people hurt by credit are already so deep inside the box of consumerism and ignorance they do not care.

3) Once again, no one is forcing anybody to take out more money. Nobody is forcing you to take a second mortgage that you cannot afford. The truth is that rather than live poorer, most people rather plunge themselves into debt. These schemes like credit and second mortgages are for people that are better off, and know how to use them to their advantage, I will grant you that, but again, most people have to have their new car, they have to have that new television, then when times get tough they complain they never knew what hit them. We have the power to do away with all these sucker-options (well at least credit) if mass society is ready, but they love materials and shopping, so it is not going to happen.

The large majority of people hurt by these schemes wandered into these boxes consciously, willingly and aware.

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Re: the box we live in [Re: kaiowas]
    #2086241 -

You don't make any sense at all.

We accept money as payment because we expect others to accept it from us. You really don't get the point of a free market. It's all about supply, demand, priorities etc not about a book with conversion factors.

> some people think paper is extremely valuable while others don't
Some people want to pay much for paper and others don't. Nothing fake about it.

2) and 3): It's called demand and supply, not fake....!

Read this book and learn something about economy:
Capital: A Critique of Political Economy -  Karl Marx

   

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Re: the box we live in [Re: Annom]
    #2086252 -

Money isn't needed.....
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: the box we live in [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2086268 -

Money isn't needed, but it makes life a lot easier.

Imagine a world without money: trading apples for pigs, pigs for CD's, CD's for cows, cows for computers, computers for cars, cars for houses. Hard way to buy a house if you only have a few thousand apples.

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Re: the box we live in [Re: Annom]
    #2086275 -

Annom said:
Money isn't needed, but it makes life a lot easier.

Imagine a world without money: trading apples for pigs, pigs for CD's, CD's for cows, cows for computers, computers for cars, cars for houses. Hard way to buy a house if you only have a few thousand apples.


Who mentioned needing to trade items for other ideas? I didn't.
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: the box we live in [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2086282 -

We can't live without trading.....

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Re: the box we live in [Re: Annom]
    #2086284 -

Annom said:
We can't live without trading.....


Where does it say that in the Book of Life?
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: the box we live in [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2086467 -

That's just my opinion. 6 billion people just can't live without trading.

Where/How to get drinking water, food, health care, housing, transportation, mushrooms, E, weed, etc, etc, etc?

How to pay the Police, Fireman, the army, roads, bridges, airports, etc, etc, etc?

We just can't live with 6.000.000.000 people on this earth without trading....

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Re: the box we live in [Re: Annom]
    #2086474 -

Oh, its entirely possible. The system wouldn't be in any way like the one we have now, but it is entirely possible and feasible.
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: the box we live in [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2086547 -

6.000.000.000 people can't live without trading, because they all need to grow their own food on a very inefficient way, just not enough space on earth....


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Re: the box we live in [Re: Annom]
    #2086789 -

ok so how in the hell are they going to print so and so much money??? how do they determine what ot print and what not to. printing money as nothing to do with supply and demand since again, it's supposed to be based ON something. not our confidense


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.

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Re: the box we live in [Re: TrueBrode]
    #2086798 -

damn right no is forcing no one, but god damn people are!! i telemarketed for a mortgage company just unti lrecently, and basically the media told us how much we were in debt, the stat e that is. do you know the respponse from that?? do you know how many people took out 100,000 dollar second mortagages on their house??? I'm sorry, we were a small mortgage bank too, not everyopne has that money, where the fuck is it coming from?? look, how did silicon valley come down?? we paid too many people too much money, people are spending money the DON'T have

they do however make us have credit!!! the system that is you have to have credit to buy a house, after all how many people now and days can buy a three bedroom 2 bath small house for the over priced "value" of 450,000 bucks. you have to have credit to get a car. you have to establish credit to buy things, and yes while I do agree it is a safety issue between the buyer and seller, again 20%???? WTF?????oh if they give you 15% they are helping you. rediculous. such a shift of this money, from the many to the very few.

again my question is, don't you have to have a base for this money to be printed, a physical base? you can't put value on thought (our confidense). I know though that 60% of the US is owned by other countries through many contracts, but that's another issue.


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.

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Re: the box we live in [Re: kaiowas]
    #2086811 -

> ok so how in the hell are they going to print so and so much money???

Eehhmm.... what's your question? How they print money? well.. with money printers.....

> how do they determine what to print and what not to.

The amount of money shouldn't increase or decrease because that causes inflation or deflation, but money disappears and they try to keep the amount of money in balance if that's what you wanna know.

> printing money as nothing to do with supply and demand since again

Printing money has nothing to do with supply and demand, but the whole market of products and services has to do with supply and demand. We use money as a general trading product. That's why money is very useful.

I don't get your point.
What is wrong with money? Why is it fake? Isn't it useful?

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Re: the box we live in [Re: Annom]
    #2086829 -

a physcial base is my question. how can we determine how much money to produce? how do we know they don't have the ability to print more than what is needed? what is all that gold in fort nox doing in there?? isn't it supposed money supposed to represent part of that?? if so, how can we represent all that gold for instance if there's nothing to convert it over.


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.

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Re: the box we live in [Re: kaiowas]
    #2086846 -

Why do you need a physical base?

> how can we determine how much money to produce?

I can't, but people who know everything about money/economy can.....

> how do we know they don't have the ability to print more than what is needed?

They have the ability to print more money but that will just cause inflation(this has to do with supply and demand). Some countries tried it in the past but it has no benefit. The basics are very simple and can be found in economy books. I'm not going to give you a basic lesson about economy and money.

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Re: the box we live in [Re: kaiowas]
    #2086849 -

Sure money is good for trading, but it has to represent SOMETHING. in the physical form. federal reserve note. reserve


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.

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Re: the box we live in [Re: kaiowas]
    #2086857 -

Credit is not the tangible thing you are making it out to be, it is a promise to pay backed by collateral. You do not need credit to buy a house unless you are buying something out of your means; even then, it has more to do with your collateral than a record of credit, although bad credit would not help in that situation. The average house does not cost 450,000 dollars, only in affluent suburban areas does living cost that much. One could find a comfortable living space for rent or home ownership for a reasonable price if they are not concerned with status. The people that are concerned with status are the same people perpetuating this sad state of affairs, so I really do not feel even the slightest sympathy for them, maybe only for their children.

You also do not need credit to obtain a car. You need a good credit report if you intend to lease a car, or you need good collateral (credit) if you intend to purchase a car in installments, otherwise, you can obtain a car somehow. Again, the question arises, are you someone that needs a status-oriented car that you cannot afford? In that case, you need credit, but again, no one is forcing credit upon you to get your fancy automobile. You also could eliminate a dealership all together and buy something more within your price bracket.

Credit and mortgages, as I said before, are not for poor people to play with. This is why poor people get bad credit records, because they buy more than they can afford to obtain, then they get into debt and have a bad credit record which influences all other credit based transactions.


Your question was:

-Dont you have to have a base for this money to be printed, a physical base? You cannot put value on thought (our confidence). I know though that 60% of the US is owned by other countries through many contracts, but that is another issue.-

To be honest I really do not know how or what this relates to in your prior statement.

If you are referring to a base for credit, that is why it is called credit, because you are putting up collateral and your word for being able to pay forth when collection time occurs.

If you are referring to a base in regards to the actual printing of currency, then you are right, the only base is confidence, and the regulation of Federal Reserve Board that decides how much money to keep in flow.

Otherwise, I do not see what you are trying to say about the physical existence of money. Like I said before, since we went off the gold standard and borrow our currency from a private bank, our currency is essentially worthless, and technically, every dollar in your pocket is a dollar of debt. That is the way it works now. If we started printing a United States dollar instead of BORROWING a federal reserve note, that would eliminate some problems that are on the horizon and knock out thugs like the I.R.S., but still would not change the basis of credit or physical basis of currency because there is not enough gold and silver in reserve to back an entire currency.




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Re: the box we live in [Re: kaiowas]
    #2086866 -

What is the physical basis of gold and silver?

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Re: the box we live in [Re: Annom]
    #2086901 -

Annom is right, you can't barter everything. Even if you did...it would still be based on 'imaginary values' placed on the items...hence money represents the imaginary value but in a smaller and easier to handle medium that is also standardized.


--------------------
Persons denying the existence of robots may be robots themselves.

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Re: the box we live in [Re: bert]
    #2087003 -

right the actual printing!!! doesn't it seem ridiculus to you though that htere isn't enough "stuff" that this money is supposed to represent?? there's all this money floating around, but not enough is there to back it up. I'm not saying barter, what I am saying that we are told that we are IN debt. there is no REAL way for us to know how much they can or cannot print, expecially if what we have isn't enough. they could in essence print enough to clear this "debt" but that would be even more ridiculus!! Since we don't have enough stuff to represent our currency we borrow from other countries, so we are then we are no longer in debt to the back, but really most of the world.

what about inflation? the dollar sometimes is worth so much and then it isn't?? and sure I hear all the time, well there are so many factors and...well yeah maybe, but it affects all of us! it seems to me really retarded that if the normal joe can't say what is what in regards to money, then the system (the box) truley sucks.


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.

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Re: the box we live in [Re: kaiowas]
    #2087019 -

There are a lot of intangible goods and services as well. Most things represented by money don't exist, they're just services or ideas. We pay money for insurance and stuff and we gamble too. Technically there's an infinite amount of 'stuff' to back money up. The government prints money in such quantities as to try and keep inflation at a reasonable rate ( I think). It is ridiculous yet simultaneously absolutely neccessary.


--------------------
Persons denying the existence of robots may be robots themselves.

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Re: the box we live in [Re: bert]
    #2087034 -

" Technically there's an infinite amount of 'stuff' to back money up."

if there is an infinite amount, then why is there debt?? it could be cleared like that! this goes back to what I was saying about security and power. it's a playing on our emotions, the media does I mean. poeple worry and worry and worry about it, and again, it keeps away from what might really be important. it keeps the mind reeling our rational mind, and then our ego takes it from there, because it plays on the ego. power and security struggles. this is the box I am speaking of


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.

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Re: the box we live in [Re: kaiowas]
    #2087123 -

Do you have any viable alternatives to our current form of money? Should we all revert to a barter economy? Don't you think paying your ISP in chickens and cows would be a little impractical?

What you say about the complexity of economy is true though. There should be much more mandatory social economics in school, everybody needs to know something about this.


--------------------
"To make this mundane world sublime
Take half a gram of phanerothyme."
Aldous Huxley

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Re: the box we live in [Re: muhurgle]
    #2087157 -

yes and as you can see, I am somewhat ignorant about this. and it makes me wonder. that's why I ask questions lol do I have a plan?? the thing is that our society is geared towards this, I just want to see if others notice this. again I said, I'm not saying go back to barter, but at least we can take away from the emotion game it plays on us. and it does play on us. again the box of illusions that play on our emotions, this is why I am posting these questions/ideas


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.

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Re: the box we live in [Re: kaiowas]
    #2089377 -

> the thing is that our society is geared towards this

Geared towards what? I don't get your point....

> but at least we can take away from the emotion game it plays on us. and it does play on us.

The emotion game it plays on us? What are you talking about? Emotion game? HUH?

> again the box of illusions that play on our emotions

The box of illusions that play on our emotions? Elaborate please... You haven't mentioned one "illusion that plays on our emotions",,,,


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Re: the box we live in [Re: Annom]
    #2089411 -

Money is here to expedite taxation, legalized theft. Inflation is here to stay because it is caused by the government printing more and more money. This is also a form of taxation.


--------------------
Hi how's it going, wanna kick Heroin basically painlessly on your own, in your own house, without any government "help" ,or the "help" of a crazy condescending, judgmental medical doctor? Read this:

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=42&Number=7342616&page=0&fpart=all


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Re: the box we live in [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #2089499 -

> Inflation is here to stay because it is caused by the government printing more and more money.

That's just not true....

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Re: the box we live in [Re: Annom]
    #2089572 -

Annom said:
> Inflation is here to stay because it is caused by the government printing more and more money.

That's just not true....


Um... what I learned about inflation from school is that it is primarily caused by more money being circulated, causing the value of the money to decrease.

Think about rare baseball cards. They go up in value because there are so few of them (only as long as their is demand for them). Same thing with new toys that everyone beats the hell out of each other to have. People start paying insane prices for them. Once there is enough toys for everyone, the price goes down.

I'm not saying inflation is the same as that, but that the more of something there is, the less valuable it is. Inflation equals (according to dictionary.com) "A persistent increase in the level of consumer prices or a persistent decline in the purchasing power of money, caused by an increase in available currency and credit beyond the proportion of available goods and services."
Peace.




--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: the box we live in [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2089760 -

> Um... what I learned about inflation from school is that it is primarily caused by more money being circulated, causing the value of the money to decrease.

That's wrong, it's not PRIMARILY caused by more money being circulated. And circulation of more money is in general not caused by the government printing more money.

> "Think about rare baseball cards. They go up in value because there are so few of them (only as long as their is demand for them). Same thing with new toys that everyone beats the hell out of each other to have. People start paying insane prices for them. Once there is enough toys for everyone, the price goes down."

Supply and demand... I understand that. This also works with money and it would happen if the government would start printing billons of dollars, but that's why they don't.

Ok... here we go:

The 3 sorts of inflation:

1.) Demand-pull inflation: Price increases which result from an excess of demand over supply.

2.) Cost-push inflation: Persistently rising general price levels brought about by rising input costs. In general, there are three factors that could contribute to cost-push inflation: rising wages, increases in corporate taxes, and imported inflation (when imported raw or partly-finished goods become more expensive, often as a result of currency depreciation). For inflation to be cost-push in nature, increases in input prices must affect a large proportion of the country's producers, so as to be able to push up the general price level.

3.) Monetair inflation(I don't know the correct english word for this inflation): This inflation is caused by an increase in the amount of circulating money. If interests drop, more money will circulate. If people spent the money they have at home, more money will circulate. If the government prints more money than is destroyed, more money will circulate.

The government doesn't like high inflation rates so why would they print billions of dollars?

Inflation is not here to stay because it is caused by the government printing more and more money. I'm 100% sure about that....


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Re: the box we live in [Re: Annom]
    #2090058 -

Okay... I just had an econ flashback... *wowmp wowmp wowmp ching wowmp ching ka-ching*


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Re: the box we live in [Re: Sclorch]
    #2090609 -

ok my typing was real bad that time. sorry. what I meant by geared is that we have a world economy now that is based on this system and that it would be really hard pressed for any on person to give a replacement for money.

now the emotional game I was talking about is the power and security struggles that come along with money. especially with the credit cards I mentioned before.

We have the ability to spend more than what we have. to borrow more and then cause ourselves to become more involved in the debt. with debt, and I don't know if you've even been in this situation, but it isn't pretty. stress is oh so common, and I'm jsut trying to point out that it is crap that we can do this in the first place. you say yeah well we don't force anyone to, but my point is, that we do. we depend on credit a lot of the time. oh and if you really want a good interest rate, you beter have good credit, meaning you have to get it. because a lot of people get 30 year mortgages on their homes, and a lot of people pay of their cars in 36 months. both ways the game is the interest rate, and the credit report is VERY important. no???

in the post i started the thread with, the last paragraph just said the feelings we get with money, or the emotional games.

greed: this money is mine. people feel so great when they have cash in their pockets. a combination of power and security emotions. power because it's theirs and they have control over where the money goes. security is obvious because we are required to have it in order to SURVIVE in this system. so the more money we have the more secure we supposedly feel. now I'm not saying greed doesn't already exist, but with this money system, it makes it really easy for our ego to play this game with us. this is just one example.



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Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.

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Re: the box we live in [Re: kaiowas]
    #2090961 -

Interesting fact about currency: A few hundred years ago one of the first explorers to discover the Tongan kingdom (south pacific island group) introduced the king to the concept of currency. Right away the king saw the value of such a system (especially using metal objects that could be turned into tools for gardening etc.) but decided against it. His reasoning was that if people used currency then they would just hoard it and it wouldn't be distributed equally among his people. Fruits and vegetables aren't able to be hoarded because they'll decompose over time, so the tongan kind decided to keep the barter system in the markets so that there would be a continuous circulation of the wealth (essential for a good economy). I guess the explorers didn't explain taxes.. a useful way to ensure the money is constantly redistributed.

I love using the barter system. That's what I do with the mushrooms I grow.. I've got books and shirts and stuff for them. The cool thing about the barter system is that you can go directly to the things that are worthless to you and trade them for things you prize highly. In my situation I have plenty of mushrooms for myself so I have no problem trading them for books or whatever and both people always feel they got the right deal.

I highly reccomend opening up bartering with your friends. My girlfriend and all her friends get together every now and then to have clothing swaps. The more you exchange shit the more cool stuff you get. It's pretty fun. Drugs are excellent currency.

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Re: the box we live in [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #2090990 -

Money promotes pursuing things for yourself and puts less emphasis on cooperation. Cooperation was once essential to survival but now we almost have to seek this skill out and develop it consciously if we want to grow into healthy people. It's too easy to get by without cooperation with our current system and so we end up in our own little box of worthlessness.

In a stone-age currency-free system we'd all work towards a goal and that might be something like a log cabin. In our current system we could all work at our separate jobs and pay into a tribal bank account but the problem there is that one member of the commune could screw everybody else by stealing and running away with the money or a highly valuable and portable item like a laptop computer. It's harder to screw the tribe by stealing a log cabin or a ditch that you all built together. So basically, we're fucked. No, just kidding, it's pretty fun. Money...

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Re: the box we live in [Re: kaiowas]
    #2091018 -

You're post got me thinking, thanks :wink:

Here's what my head had to say about what it was thinking:

I used to think money was the root of all evil, or at least something close. Then I realized money was only a proxy. Money is an expression of one of the deepest and oldest hurdles to what I see as a more advanced civilization: greed. That shouldn't be big news to anyone.

I think money probably is required in our society, at least for right now and probably as long as we have greed (which may be forever). The barter system would not work with the population densities and sizes of today's world, so an abstracted form of "worth" is required. This is paper money. Credit has been around as long as money has, I think, and probably will be around as long as money is (thus as long as greed is).

Are these little pieces of paper the problem? No...we are.

Because we put so much value in the "almighty dollar", instead of seeing it for what it is: a representation of the value of something else. The money itself has no real value. The work you did to get the money, and the things you buy with the money are where the value is. Or at least where it should be. I doubt many people see it that way.

The almighty buck.

Also we have allowed our political class (and it is a class) to grow into a state of money = power. Money does equal power, though it shouldn't. It doesn't equal real power, either, but I won't get into that here. Anyway we have allowed our politicians to become swayed by the lure of money (greed) and have then allowed them to go about accepting that money with us footing the bill (in more ways than one).

Money really doesn't mean anything to me. I'm serious here, too. One dollar feels no differant than a hundred to me. Probably one of the reasons I never have any money and am in debt too :smirk:

Some people try and tell me that I shouldn't be this way, that I need to "respect" money or I'll "never make it in the world".

Ok, I understand.  :smirk: :wink:


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: the box we live in [Re: trendal]
    #2091043 -

One of the problems is that without the gold standard, a day's pay is only worth a day's work, whereas before it was a fixed amount gold, independent of productivity and profit margins. And that means that the value of a paper dollar can now be inflated simply by swinging the old baton harder and more frequently. Similarly, any *genuine* instances of endemic "slacking" will cause paper money to lose its value. With gold this is not a problem.

As such, Nixon's ceasing the redemption of dollars in gold has forced the US into right-wing supply-side economics, as it was meant to.


--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...

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Re: the box we live in [Re: Annapurna1]
    #2091060 -

"You're post got me thinking, thanks "

what's it worth to ya?

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Re: the box we live in [Re: trendal]
    #2091355 -

Quote:
Because we put so much value in the "almighty dollar", instead of seeing it for what it is: a representation of the value of something else. The money itself has no real value. The work you did to get the money, and the things you buy with the money are where the value is. Or at least where it should be. I doubt many people see it that way.



I agree that some people put to much value in the "almighty dollar". People who just want money to show their money and not because they can buy nice things are totally sick in the head, but if they are happy with it(they probably aren't) I don't care.

If one bread = one dollar, than the value of a bread and one dollar are equal. If I don't want a bread but a CD I'm happy I have a dollar and not a bread. I understand that I can't eat a dollar, but indirect I can eat a dollar, listen to a dollar, live in a dollar, drive in a dollar, etc, because I only have to buy these things with my dollar. That's why I put value to a dollar, not to look at it, but because I can buy nice things with $. If you look at it this way I don't see any difference from the barter system..

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Re: the box we live in [Re: Annom]
    #2091360 -

yes trendal I agree with you, money isn't totally the problem, but it sure does keep that greed problem going....strong I might add


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Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.

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Re: the box we live in [Re: kaiowas]
    #2091364 -

Quote:
ok my typing was real bad that time. sorry. what I meant by geared is that we have a world economy now that is based on this system and that it would be really hard pressed for any on person to give a replacement for money.

It's hard to give a replacement for money, because money is so useful. I still don't get why you want a replacement for money.

Quote:
We have the ability to spend more than what we have. to borrow more and then cause ourselves to become more involved in the debt. with debt, and I don't know if you've even been in this situation, but it isn't pretty. stress is oh so common, and I'm jsut trying to point out that it is crap that we can do this in the first place. you say yeah well we don't force anyone to, but my point is, that we do.



No, we don't force anyone! I see it as freedom that we can choose to spend more than we have. It requires responsibility and moderation(like with drugs).

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Re: the box we live in [Re: Annom]
    #2091367 -

> yes trendal I agree with you, money isn't totally the problem, but it sure does keep that greed problem going....strong I might add

True, but I think the greed problem would still be here without money. What do you think?

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Re: the box we live in [Re: Annom]
    #2091381 -

ok I have said countless times, I am not saying we need a replacement, NOR AM I SUGGESTING IT. I'm just throwing out ideas for discussion. I want to know what people think because I can LEARN, and maybe get a couple of other's people's wheels to turn as well
that's what I meant by HARD PRESSED! it would be difficult for me to even suggest such a thing, yes????

I also said WE DON"T force ANYONE TO SPEND MORE. please read what I put. what I am saying is that WE HAVE THIS ABILITY TO DO SO IF WE CHOOSE. in fact, there are so many ways for us to do so it's kinda nuts really. and my point is that many upon many people are doing so. yes under their free will, but that doesn't take away from the fact that they are still doing so.



--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.

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Re: the box we live in [Re: Annom]
    #2091389 -

"> yes trendal I agree with you, money isn't totally the problem, but it sure does keep that greed problem going....strong I might add

True, but I think the greed problem would still be here without money. What do you think? "

here's what I posted for reference:

" now I'm not saying greed doesn't already exist, but with this money system, it makes it really easy for our ego to play this game with us. this is just one example"

yes of course greed will always be there, money just accelerates it, no???


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.

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Re: the box we live in [Re: kaiowas]
    #2091412 -

btw I can see how could have cofused the credit card forcing thing, I re-read it and yes I could see how it could have been taken the other way around, but that is not what I meant. apologies for that one :smile:


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.

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Re: the box we live in [Re: kaiowas]
    #2091420 -

> I also said WE DON"T force ANYONE TO SPEND MORE. please read what I put.

"you say yeah well we don't force anyone to, but my point is, that we do."

Edit: Ok... no problem!

Edited by Annom (11/11/03 03:23 AM)

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Re: the box we live in [Re: Annom]
    #2091425 -

yeah that's what I meant...:lol:  that was my grammar mistake.  I'm killing the english language here. *sigh*

when i say we do, I was really meaning we do spend more than we have. 


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.

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Re: the box we live in [Re: bert]
    #2095969 -

Even chimps trade favours for gain - its the basis of politicks - you scratch my back and ill scratch yours

were trading animals at our core. Anyone that doesnt see this isnt looking

we need money because its a liquid asset - you can convert a solid good to liquidcash that can then be transferred to whoever has what you need etc etc - pretty basic stuff

problem with the market now though is overinflation caused by hyperconsumerism
Too people get too much disposable money by tapping into huge markets
then they buy many assets and the market value of those assets rises beyond the reach of ordinary people - ordinary people dont want to miss out so they over extend themselves
the economy falters and both repaymnet and spending ability is curbed
no-one has savings and all monies are invested in over valued equities
the whole house comes down like a pack of cards....
The vultures pick the bones
and everyone starts the cycle again.

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