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Invisiblekaiowas
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the box we live in
    #2086192 - 11/09/03 10:54 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

ok this post will fit into many of the boards but I really want serious attention to it, as OTD was too much for me and political forum as even more in shambles. too much bickering and arguing, not enough debate. with that being said here I go...

I had this idea while delivering newspapers today, and I'm sure many of you have. we live in a box, and thus we need to try to think "outside the box" well here now I am gonna try to define different aspects of this box world we live in. we can discuss or just read, doesn't matter. you can even have your own input, that would be hella cool. right now I'm going to talk about money/expenses, how money is fake, and how it keeps us in worry and turmoil


1) paper money: so let us think on this for a second shall we??? here in the US we have this paper money, and what is it here for? it is here to represent something, precious metals and gold. these have "value" based on their rarity and their demand. with that in mind, this paper is supposed to represent this money? I asked myself, how so??? how can you put a value on it? where is this conversion factor?? Well I can honestly say the mint is more than happy to tell you, there isn't one. oh there used to be a long long time ago, but not anymore (there's a reason for that too btw but I won't get into that). look it up yourselves if you want, it isn't there, and they will tell you so.

so what does this mean, well think of this as an equation ok? a=b simple enough. a=precious metals and such, and b=paper money. in order for a=b we need some kind of conversion that will show these two objects or ideas are the same? Am I making sense so far?? well if there isn't any, then "a" can't ever equal "b" as a universal equation no??? instead it would have to rely on the value that we establsihed on it in our heads. knowing we are all different people, this could mean a wide range of variables. some people think paper is extremely valuable while others don't. "there's a lot of paper after all" some would agree others wouldn't.

what odes this mean?? it's fake!!!! fake in the sense that PAPER MONEY DOESN'T ACTUALLY REPRESENT WHAT IT IS SUPPOSED TO REPRESENT. and if you say it does, go out and show me this conversion, because that is the only way for paer money to be valid. again the mint tells us there isn't!!! we are really that stupid. we love that cash too. caress it as you put it in ypour pocket, knowing your ego all the while says with glee "THIS IS MINE"

2) credit: to further establish this box we have, we now have plastic to represent this fake money we have. on top of this, they want to charge us 15-20% interest. and really who's interests is this in hmmmm?? moving along, this is money popping OUT OF THE BLUE because they say they need this much to surivive as a company. most of the time they are relying on us to spend paper money WE DON'T HAVE. this is the essence of credit. this further puts us in debt, and it keeps our minds in worry and turmoil, creating the stress and furthering the illusions of this plastic life.

3) 2nd mortagages. oh those people love the owrds "consolidate"let's get a lower interest rate yah!! sure 6.75% is better than 20% but this is still crap. again what is the underlying factor here? to TAKE OUT MORE THAN THEY ALREADY HAVE. I'm sure you can see where I am going with this.


WE are allowed to take out money we don't have creating this fake debt that keeps on accumulating. what this does is it creates greed, jealousy, worry, all these power struggles and security struggles that our minds seem to enjoy to play in. it's so fake though and such a bother, when you look from an "outside the box" perspective, you can really see how clever this system really is.

this is but one part, there will be more, comments???


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.---senior doobie


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InvisibleTrueBrode
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Re: the box we live in [Re: kaiowas]
    #2086236 - 11/09/03 11:41 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

1) Of course paper money does not equal gold or silver. We went off the gold standard in 1933, and we stopped printing our own money in 1913 when we decided (rather were conspired against) to borrow money from a private bank (the Federal Reserve), put ourselves into permanent debt, and let international bankers gain power over our country.

Even so, if the United States government printed its own money, it would still be backed by our confidence anyway, and there is not enough gold or silver in the vaults of the world to completely back any currency. So, unless you want to go back to bartering, what is your point? Money is convenient; we have been using it since ancient times, it is not the root of conformity and materialism, mass production and controlled media have more to do with that.

2) Credit is a system for suckers unless you are somewhat responsible, which most people are not. It is not the credit companies fault that you could not stop yourself from buying too much before it was too late. That is your fault, no one forces you to use a credit card, most people know what they are getting into, and it is not like it is some conspiracy. I highly doubt that it is keeping anybody inside any box; most people hurt by credit are already so deep inside the box of consumerism and ignorance they do not care.

3) Once again, no one is forcing anybody to take out more money. Nobody is forcing you to take a second mortgage that you cannot afford. The truth is that rather than live poorer, most people rather plunge themselves into debt. These schemes like credit and second mortgages are for people that are better off, and know how to use them to their advantage, I will grant you that, but again, most people have to have their new car, they have to have that new television, then when times get tough they complain they never knew what hit them. We have the power to do away with all these sucker-options (well at least credit) if mass society is ready, but they love materials and shopping, so it is not going to happen.

The large majority of people hurt by these schemes wandered into these boxes consciously, willingly and aware.


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OfflineAnnomM
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Re: the box we live in [Re: kaiowas]
    #2086241 - 11/09/03 11:44 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

You don't make any sense at all.

We accept money as payment because we expect others to accept it from us. You really don't get the point of a free market. It's all about supply, demand, priorities etc not about a book with conversion factors.

> some people think paper is extremely valuable while others don't
Some people want to pay much for paper and others don't. Nothing fake about it.

2) and 3): It's called demand and supply, not fake....!

Read this book and learn something about economy:
Capital: A Critique of Political Economy -  Karl Marx

   


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: the box we live in [Re: Annom]
    #2086252 - 11/09/03 11:56 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Money isn't needed.....
Peace.


--------------------
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If I should die this very moment
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For I've never known completeness
Like being here
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OfflineAnnomM
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Re: the box we live in [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2086268 - 11/09/03 12:09 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Money isn't needed, but it makes life a lot easier.

Imagine a world without money: trading apples for pigs, pigs for CD's, CD's for cows, cows for computers, computers for cars, cars for houses. Hard way to buy a house if you only have a few thousand apples.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: the box we live in [Re: Annom]
    #2086275 - 11/09/03 12:13 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Annom said:
Money isn't needed, but it makes life a lot easier.

Imagine a world without money: trading apples for pigs, pigs for CD's, CD's for cows, cows for computers, computers for cars, cars for houses. Hard way to buy a house if you only have a few thousand apples.




Who mentioned needing to trade items for other ideas? I didn't.
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineAnnomM
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Re: the box we live in [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2086282 - 11/09/03 12:17 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

We can't live without trading.....


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: the box we live in [Re: Annom]
    #2086284 - 11/09/03 12:18 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Annom said:
We can't live without trading.....




Where does it say that in the Book of Life?
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineAnnomM
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Re: the box we live in [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2086467 - 11/09/03 02:09 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

That's just my opinion. 6 billion people just can't live without trading.

Where/How to get drinking water, food, health care, housing, transportation, mushrooms, E, weed, etc, etc, etc?

How to pay the Police, Fireman, the army, roads, bridges, airports, etc, etc, etc?

We just can't live with 6.000.000.000 people on this earth without trading....


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: the box we live in [Re: Annom]
    #2086474 - 11/09/03 02:12 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Oh, its entirely possible. The system wouldn't be in any way like the one we have now, but it is entirely possible and feasible.
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineAnnomM
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Re: the box we live in [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2086547 - 11/09/03 02:52 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

6.000.000.000 people can't live without trading, because they all need to grow their own food on a very inefficient way, just not enough space on earth....



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Invisiblekaiowas
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Re: the box we live in [Re: Annom]
    #2086789 - 11/09/03 05:35 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

ok so how in the hell are they going to print so and so much money??? how do they determine what ot print and what not to. printing money as nothing to do with supply and demand since again, it's supposed to be based ON something. not our confidense


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.---senior doobie


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Invisiblekaiowas
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Re: the box we live in [Re: TrueBrode]
    #2086798 - 11/09/03 05:44 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

damn right no is forcing no one, but god damn people are!! i telemarketed for a mortgage company just unti lrecently, and basically the media told us how much we were in debt, the stat e that is. do you know the respponse from that?? do you know how many people took out 100,000 dollar second mortagages on their house??? I'm sorry, we were a small mortgage bank too, not everyopne has that money, where the fuck is it coming from?? look, how did silicon valley come down?? we paid too many people too much money, people are spending money the DON'T have

they do however make us have credit!!! the system that is you have to have credit to buy a house, after all how many people now and days can buy a three bedroom 2 bath small house for the over priced "value" of 450,000 bucks. you have to have credit to get a car. you have to establish credit to buy things, and yes while I do agree it is a safety issue between the buyer and seller, again 20%???? WTF?????oh if they give you 15% they are helping you. rediculous. such a shift of this money, from the many to the very few.

again my question is, don't you have to have a base for this money to be printed, a physical base? you can't put value on thought (our confidense). I know though that 60% of the US is owned by other countries through many contracts, but that's another issue.


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.---senior doobie


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OfflineAnnomM
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Re: the box we live in [Re: kaiowas]
    #2086811 - 11/09/03 05:56 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

> ok so how in the hell are they going to print so and so much money???

Eehhmm.... what's your question? How they print money? well.. with money printers.....

> how do they determine what to print and what not to.

The amount of money shouldn't increase or decrease because that causes inflation or deflation, but money disappears and they try to keep the amount of money in balance if that's what you wanna know.

> printing money as nothing to do with supply and demand since again

Printing money has nothing to do with supply and demand, but the whole market of products and services has to do with supply and demand. We use money as a general trading product. That's why money is very useful.

I don't get your point.
What is wrong with money? Why is it fake? Isn't it useful?


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Invisiblekaiowas
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Re: the box we live in [Re: Annom]
    #2086829 - 11/09/03 06:16 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

a physcial base is my question. how can we determine how much money to produce? how do we know they don't have the ability to print more than what is needed? what is all that gold in fort nox doing in there?? isn't it supposed money supposed to represent part of that?? if so, how can we represent all that gold for instance if there's nothing to convert it over.


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.---senior doobie


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OfflineAnnomM
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Re: the box we live in [Re: kaiowas]
    #2086846 - 11/09/03 06:24 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Why do you need a physical base?

> how can we determine how much money to produce?

I can't, but people who know everything about money/economy can.....

> how do we know they don't have the ability to print more than what is needed?

They have the ability to print more money but that will just cause inflation(this has to do with supply and demand). Some countries tried it in the past but it has no benefit. The basics are very simple and can be found in economy books. I'm not going to give you a basic lesson about economy and money.


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Invisiblekaiowas
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Re: the box we live in [Re: kaiowas]
    #2086849 - 11/09/03 06:25 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Sure money is good for trading, but it has to represent SOMETHING. in the physical form. federal reserve note. reserve


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.---senior doobie


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InvisibleTrueBrode
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Re: the box we live in [Re: kaiowas]
    #2086857 - 11/09/03 06:31 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Credit is not the tangible thing you are making it out to be, it is a promise to pay backed by collateral. You do not need credit to buy a house unless you are buying something out of your means; even then, it has more to do with your collateral than a record of credit, although bad credit would not help in that situation. The average house does not cost 450,000 dollars, only in affluent suburban areas does living cost that much. One could find a comfortable living space for rent or home ownership for a reasonable price if they are not concerned with status. The people that are concerned with status are the same people perpetuating this sad state of affairs, so I really do not feel even the slightest sympathy for them, maybe only for their children.

You also do not need credit to obtain a car. You need a good credit report if you intend to lease a car, or you need good collateral (credit) if you intend to purchase a car in installments, otherwise, you can obtain a car somehow. Again, the question arises, are you someone that needs a status-oriented car that you cannot afford? In that case, you need credit, but again, no one is forcing credit upon you to get your fancy automobile. You also could eliminate a dealership all together and buy something more within your price bracket.

Credit and mortgages, as I said before, are not for poor people to play with. This is why poor people get bad credit records, because they buy more than they can afford to obtain, then they get into debt and have a bad credit record which influences all other credit based transactions.


Your question was:

-Dont you have to have a base for this money to be printed, a physical base? You cannot put value on thought (our confidence). I know though that 60% of the US is owned by other countries through many contracts, but that is another issue.-

To be honest I really do not know how or what this relates to in your prior statement.

If you are referring to a base for credit, that is why it is called credit, because you are putting up collateral and your word for being able to pay forth when collection time occurs.

If you are referring to a base in regards to the actual printing of currency, then you are right, the only base is confidence, and the regulation of Federal Reserve Board that decides how much money to keep in flow.

Otherwise, I do not see what you are trying to say about the physical existence of money. Like I said before, since we went off the gold standard and borrow our currency from a private bank, our currency is essentially worthless, and technically, every dollar in your pocket is a dollar of debt. That is the way it works now. If we started printing a United States dollar instead of BORROWING a federal reserve note, that would eliminate some problems that are on the horizon and knock out thugs like the I.R.S., but still would not change the basis of credit or physical basis of currency because there is not enough gold and silver in reserve to back an entire currency.





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OfflineAnnomM
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Re: the box we live in [Re: kaiowas]
    #2086866 - 11/09/03 06:37 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

What is the physical basis of gold and silver?


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Invisiblebert
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Re: the box we live in [Re: Annom]
    #2086901 - 11/09/03 06:55 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Annom is right, you can't barter everything. Even if you did...it would still be based on 'imaginary values' placed on the items...hence money represents the imaginary value but in a smaller and easier to handle medium that is also standardized.


--------------------
Persons denying the existence of robots may be robots themselves.


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