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Re: looking for some insights on buddhism [Re: redgreenvines]
    #20067897 -

well but with deeper perspectives comes the hability to see through the illusion and so have some control. not a control over reality itself, a control over the mind that creates the overwhelming feelings of fear, hate and so on.

please continue!


--------------------
:strokebeard:
"if you do not change direction, you may end up where you are heading" lao zi

"the angel is free because of his knowledge, the beast because of his ignorance. between the two remains the son of man to struggle." rumi

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Re: looking for some insights on buddhism [Re: chaos] * 1
    #20068215 -

chaos said:
well but with deeper perspectives comes the hability to see through the illusion and so have some control. not a control over reality itself, a control over the mind that creates the overwhelming feelings of fear, hate and so on.

please continue!


the perspective leads to cultivation of valuable ideas, attitudes, reactions.
the person is not in control except for that - it is subtle,

rather than controlling a horse with stirrups and reigns, you are semi-controlling a horse rider by hammering away at what is valuable until it is a reflex in the rider.

training is a closer term than control.

you can use perspective from meditation(1) to train the self(2) to react better in real time(3):
(3) real-time is where everything is happening in the now, this exhilarating domain can be watched but cannot be directly controlled - much suffering occurs in imagining it can be controlled or in being envious as others seem to have it in control.
(2) we are very good at dancing to rhythms that we have practiced, we get the steps right and - wow fred astaire, but it takes practice, and often our terrific responses are just a bit off, but if our values are realistic, and if we keep practicing what we want to be good at, then some good impact will occur in the world around us.
(1) Meditation is a practice that is very good for focusing attention and achieving tranquility and perspective. The cultivation of this practice sets in place a bit of mental agility that is important in life, but it never matches the speed of (3) real-time life, but it does blend well with (2) prioritizing values, and getting back to what is important to you.


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: looking for some insights on buddhism [Re: redgreenvines]
    #20068247 -

redgreenvines said:
chaos said:
well but with deeper perspectives comes the hability to see through the illusion and so have some control. not a control over reality itself, a control over the mind that creates the overwhelming feelings of fear, hate and so on.

please continue!


the perspective leads to cultivation of valuable ideas, attitudes, reactions.
the person is not in control except for that - it is subtle,

rather than controlling a horse with stirrups and reigns, you are semi-controlling a horse rider by hammering away at what is valuable until it is a reflex in the rider.

training is a closer term than control.

you can use perspective from meditation(1) to train the self(2) to react better in real time(3):
(3) real-time is where everything is happening in the now, this exhilarating domain can be watched but cannot be directly controlled - much suffering occurs in imagining it can be controlled or in being envious as others seem to have it in control.
(2) we are very good at dancing to rhythms that we have practiced, we get the steps right and - wow fred astaire, but it takes practice, and often our terrific responses are just a bit off, but if our values are realistic, and if we keep practicing what we want to be good at, then some good impact will occur in the world around us.
(1) Meditation is a practice that is very good for focusing attention and achieving tranquility and perspective. The cultivation of this practice sets in place a bit of mental agility that is important in life, but it never matches the speed of (3) real-time life, but it does blend well with (2) prioritizing values, and getting back to what is important to you.


The more I read your posts, the more they make sense to me.  I think that may be a good thing.


--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.

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Re: looking for some insights on buddhism [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #20068404 -

I have an old buddhist friend coming to visit me in an hour or less, he got me started on lsd and I got him started with buddhism - back in '69.
we plan to watch chicks from the corner cafe.


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: looking for some insights on buddhism [Re: redgreenvines]
    #20068743 -

:thumbup:


--------------------
"Springs of water welling from the fire"

"Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."


"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions."
-Thich Nhat Hanh
instant
"Experience always goes beyond ideas"

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Re: looking for some insights on buddhism [Re: redgreenvines]
    #20068966 -

redgreenvines said:
I have an old buddhist friend coming to visit me in an hour or less, he got me started on lsd and I got him started with buddhism - back in '69.
we plan to watch chicks from the corner cafe.


the progression over the years is impressive.


--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.

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Re: looking for some insights on buddhism [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #20069214 -

hehehe now instead of being on the "perverse" side, maybe its living art show :p


--------------------
"Springs of water welling from the fire"

"Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."


"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions."
-Thich Nhat Hanh
instant
"Experience always goes beyond ideas"

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Re: looking for some insights on buddhism [Re: Sse] * 1
    #20069612 -

oh Yeah!
perving


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: looking for some insights on buddhism [Re: redgreenvines]
    #20069681 -

that's wassup, i'm with you there


--------------------
"Springs of water welling from the fire"

"Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire."


"Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions."
-Thich Nhat Hanh
instant
"Experience always goes beyond ideas"

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Re: looking for some insights on buddhism [Re: Sse]
    #20081285 -

in simple terms without throwing riddles at you that display my knowledge for my own personal sake, i would say if while doing anything, most easily creating, you find yourself no longer enjoying the activity because of a reason or a desire you would like to fulfill (praise of your work, so on) but instead are enjoying it solely because you are there, existing, doing the activity then that it zazen and definitely encouraged :smile:

and emphasis on the "find yourself" because if you try to enjoy the activity you are desiring an outcome and although it wouldn't be called pointless, it is considered not in the right direction of zen practice.

when you do without any desire, including to enjoy, you will enjoy the activity in its purest form :smile:

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Re: looking for some insights on buddhism [Re: SpookyAction]
    #20081523 -

SpookyAction said:
in simple terms without throwing riddles at you that display my knowledge for my own personal sake, i would say if while doing anything, most easily creating, you find yourself no longer enjoying the activity because of a reason or a desire you would like to fulfill (praise of your work, so on) but instead are enjoying it solely because you are there, existing, doing the activity then that it zazen and definitely encouraged :smile:

and emphasis on the "find yourself" because if you try to enjoy the activity you are desiring an outcome and although it wouldn't be called pointless, it is considered not in the right direction of zen practice.

when you do without any desire, including to enjoy, you will enjoy the activity in its purest form :smile:


can you rephrase this?
are you trying to say that there is a pure form and an impure form of doing (things), and that the taint of desire(s) is what makes a thing you might do impure?

from my point of view that is a distinctly christian point of view.

a buddhist approach, from my understanding, would be keeping awareness of all mental contents (including desires) as they arise and fade away, for the duration of any practice - including task oriented practices, including art-making.

mental forms arise and pass away.

I have heard a buddhist term which is unfortunate in my opinion, "desire body" but I think it is a bad translation of "desire form" (forms - plural is more accurate) and I have heard this term applied to "astral body" equating desire more with an alter ego, and I think that approach creates an artificial cartoon of existence and will make the student weary quickly - In tibetan buddhism, much use is made of cartoon realities that are mapped onto life, and these exhaust the logical mind, permitting a kind of breakthrough in which all the constructions and mindforms are seen as "made of the same stuff" or aspects of "voidness".

In some ways there is a lot of similarity between tibetan buddhism and christianity, having many constructs or cartoon projections onto what is, thus exhausting the rational mind - possibly enabling an insightful state of mind, but I think it can very easily backfire.


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: looking for some insights on buddhism [Re: chaos]
    #20086982 -

What your asking OP is the age old question: what is the sound of one hand clapping?

No matter what you do you are always "in the stream" of life and reality...certain actions just result in different experiences. Choose wisely!

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Re: looking for some insights on buddhism and "the zone" [Re: chaos]
    #20090257 -

Another way to look at it is during any activity to investigate how mindful one is being. Or in everyday language, how attentive or aware one is. To consider the matter not as right or wrong, but as on a spectrum. At the unwise end of the spectrum is texting while driving, and at the other end is the mind of the tight rope walker.
It is not possible to be still always. There are many mundane activities everyday; some we may find pleasant some unpleasant, that is simply to be observed as well. Training the mind this way is basic buddhist practice and is said to produce 'beneficial' results. In the sports world they talk of: "being in the zone", & it is said, to lead to, improved performance.
So it's not so much the activity, as training the mind to focus in a way that is both relaxed, aware of the peripheral surroundings (both inner and outer), and at the same time intensely focused on a specific area of present time activity.

Hope that helps.

Interesting book on subject, without mysticism, is: "The Open-Focus Brain: Harnessing the Power of Attention to Heal Mind and Body " by Les Fehmi
Or on youtube a search for Ajhan Sumedo will also lead to talks on awareness with a minimum of jargon.
If one doesn't mind some jargon searches of "vipassana meditation" will lead to endless results, on this subject.

The other aspect of your question is perhaps trickier and depends on how YOU define a meaningful life.

But the question can be answered the same way as the first part. Namely that if one is living a distracted life, or a life where one feels entangled in unhappy thoughts, that is a meaningless life, even if one thinks one's goals are wonderful and meaningful.
Consider that obviously the world is full of folks with contradictory goals that they feel have great meaning and are even willing to fight over, and they do!
So meaning, selfless, and goodness are perhaps not such a good compass.
Whereas living an undistracted life allows for the possibility of discovering and experiencing all of the rich subtleties that arise and pass every instant of our lives. On the contrary when we are caught up in concepts no matter how beautiful they are, we may miss a lot of the actual living.

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Re: looking for some insights on buddhism and "the zone" [Re: laughingdog]
    #20091562 -

oh laughingdog,
you make me bark.

examining meaning is much more important than demonizing distraction
even in the context of understanding concentration meditation (for which distraction is an enemy - double agent really, as it is also an opportunity to expand the concentration as in recovery from distraction).

meaning is what comes to mind when faced with image, symbol, word, etc.
it is association.

so to are distractions.

so also is concentration practice:
the meditator becomes interested in the point of focus, and in the (stages of) breath, and adjusts posture to maintain this interest.

the interest has meaning, and so too does each successive moment of concentration, although the meaning is to begin to focus attention, or to keep the point of interest central - the meditation is meaningful in this way, without necessarily accumulating a text like dialog in the mind.

by virtue of the operation of the mind, the practice of meditation creates new memories of meditating (these are like all other experiences which expand memory and strengthen patterns that are repeated into habits)

all that crap about performance is sales promotion or self promotion for people who make a living talking about awareness practice. it is not the core of buddhism.

the core is practice, because practice makes meaning, and the meaning is what is important to you (because of your associations).
a meaningful practice is one that increases your understanding of self/life/mind.

what you cultivate or care for grows, and you care for what is interesting and important to you.


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: looking for some insights on buddhism [Re: chaos] * 1
    #20101674 -

Is it it-driven to seek water if your clothes have caught fire? Of course it is. Is that a bad thing? No, not if you're not trying to immolate yourself. The ego, or 'I thought,' ahamkara, is like the stick that stirs the fire, and is the last one to be thrown in to burn. Until that point however, it has a lot of usefulness. The point of Enlightenment or Self-Realization, is to Realize that we are not what our egoic-mind informs us that we are. Our suffering is a result of being painfully attached to our former appearance (youth and beauty), powers of body and mind, possessions, position, and everything that has strengthened the ego's sense of specialness and importance. From a cosmic perspective, this is all just silly and stupid.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

Edited by MarkostheGnostic (06/09/14 11:46 PM)

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Re: looking for some insights on buddhism [Re: redgreenvines]
    #20106727 -

do you think that stars need to think?
do you think that galaxies think?
do you think that galactic clusters think?

do you think molecules need to think?
do you think atoms think?
do you think that the parts of atoms: electrons, protons and neutrons think?
do you think the parts of  electrons, protons and neutrons; or quarks think?

do you think photons need to think at 186,000 miles per second?
Does gravity care who or what 'falls'?

do you really think there is meaning without thinking?

what would photons think about? breakfast or morality?

if the universe doesn't need thinking or meaning, why be so anthropomorphic
as to believe a slightly evolved very recent purely experimental life form, that uses very rough internal virtual reality modeling to predict environmental consequences of actions, (which we experience as the thinking, of a so called self) which exists most likely only on one planet, in exactly this form, sets the standard for billions of previous years of the manifestation of the universe?

obviously the universe is a mix of order and chaos ...
so having a brain that constantly seeks out patterns,
we see images of galaxies …
then look in a flushing toilet bowl, then see an ariel shot of a hurricane, stir our coffee, see an anatomy/biology book with a picture of the inner ear and go … Wow there is a God! there is a meaning --- it's Spirals !!! 
Next we discover hexagons in basalt and honeycombs and crystals and symmetry groups … there is a meaning --- it's Hexagons !!!
Wait a moment, it must be moral hexagonal spirals with a soul ! ! !

But 'meaning' is just another golden calf, to borrow a metaphor,
and very funnily the "intelligent design" of the fundamentalists is just another golden calf,
talk about misunderstanding your own tradition !

What does this mean?
Would seem the teaching of the old testament was:
don't project your shit, on others, or "god" or "the universe".
(considering the golden calf:
there really was idol worship and human sacrifice in our recent past
recent past … makes me wonder)
---------------
just as space is the container for all objects,
which are impermanent.
time is the container for all events,
which are impermanent.
space and time together or 'space-time' contains all matter, energies, and forces.

all of the above are contained by awareness,
which has no characteristics (and hence is not subject to suffering, decay, and death)
(unlike all phenomenon
which do have characteristics).

--------------------------

according to buddhism we should take nothing on authority,
but investigate our own experience to see if it agrees with the hints or points to investigate probably initially given to us humans by a dude called Buddha about 2500 years ago.

The central teaching ( 4 noble truths sort of thing) is that:
1)  generally humans suffer, and get unnecessarily stressed out.
or shit happens.
2)  this is largely caused by identification with the contents of awareness,
(mainly believing our thoughts moment to moment)
as opposed to recognizing that awareness is already free of all characteristics.
The importance of this is that we in ignorance attempt to grasp the contents, which are irreversibly subject to arising, decay, and dissolution-death. Attempting to grasp, what cannot be grasped, by that which does not exist, is samsara. "Meaning" is one element of the contents of awareness.
or Bad shit happens but taking it personally, makes it feel really serious.

3) not only are the obvious external contents (of awareness), irreversibly subject to arising, decay, and dissolution-death, … but they are ultimately concomitantly, unpredictable and uncontrollable; and this is the kicker, since our internal perceptions feelings and ideas of being a self, are also part of the contents of awareness, they too are unpredictable and uncontrollable and hence devoid of a self or soul; as what we consider "Our Self" is that which we presume we control. This is how we define our boundaries. So the hint here is to investigate our experience. Where does the sense of self arise from the mix of ongoing thoughts, feelings, and perceptions? How does it arise?
Is it substantial? Does it change? So we investigate with awareness which is our only reliable tool.

4) Lastly there is a way out (condensed 8 fold path sort of thing) with a few parts or hints* :

A) understand and verify the theory above personally.
B) intend to get free of previous conditioning.
C) Moral behavior is required, not to get into heaven in the future, and not because it has some wonderful 'meaning' or ability to make us 'superior' or "spiritual". (traditionally this is itemized)
But because not being moral has the effect of reinforcing the illusion of a separate, fixed, permanent, self.
D) Mindfulness practice during meditation and everyday life.

Traditionally working this plan together with like minded folks, and a teacher is supposed to give folks the best shot at liberation.

Much thinking, conceptualizing, or concern with meaning, beyond that needed to understand the rational of the above is not encouraged in beginning practice, rather doing whatever job one is assigned, and doing it well/mindfully  in a monastery or ashram has been the practice for thousands of years.
------------
and of course last but not least, the self that wants to get 'enlightened',
is the self
that'll be destroyed by 'enlightenment' !
-------------
*( but actually awareness is already happening; and the separate, fixed, permanent, self actually insubstantial) hence the teaching of non attainment)

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Re: looking for some insights on buddhism [Re: laughingdog]
    #20107219 -

you believe that?


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

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