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Re: Iraq: the lies go on [Re: Learyfan]
    #2005206 -

eh...it's not even worth reading.


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Religion is for people who are afraid of going to Hell; spirituality is for those who have been there.

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Re: Iraq: the lies go on [Re: JonnyOnTheSpot]
    #2005230 -

Just trust the CIA and everything will be OK!!

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Re: Iraq: the lies go on [Re: Ayahuasca]
    #2005499 -

Ayahuasca said:
Quote:
we know that Saddam had the weapons, because he used them (mainly on innocent civilians as part of his ethinic cleansing efforts)


Well when the Americans do that (Vietnam) it's fully understandable? Whats wrong with ye?



I wasn't making a statment of moral judgement. I realize that you are probably educated in Americas failing schools, so I'll make this as descriptive as possible.

The REASOn, or the PURPOSE, the INTENT of my statement was to contradict, or argue against, or state teh opposite, of what Alex was claiming. People, or groups, or individuals, claim, or assert, or believe, that saddam never had WMD's, thus, they can't be found. My statemet, or thought, or belive, was that Saddam OBVIOUSLY had these WMD's, because he's used them in the past. It's like this, say you sell me a car, and I drive that car around alot, then I don't makey payments on the car, and say that I don't have a car. Obviously at some point in time, a car was owned.

Once again, the point of my statement wasn't to make a moral statment (and certinatly not about VIetnam), it was to show that if he had, at one time, USED these WMD's, any statement that claimed he "never" had them is, ipso facto, false.

I hope I've dumbed that down enough that you can read it and understand my intent in writing it. Also, post me some links of the US using chemical weapons, or biological weapons, with intent in Vietnam. Only case I can think of is Agent Orange, and we hurt our own people with that.


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In response to an attack killing 15 American Servicemen
PsiloKitten said:
Just give em a little more time, the iraqis are making great progress. And this is unorganized. Wait till they get organized.

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Re: Iraq: the lies go on [Re: afoaf]
    #2005508 -

afoaf said:
a tangent, but just a head's up.

if you are talking about what I think you are
talking about, it was his son-in-law that he
had assasinated and that was only after he
defected from the country and tried to turn
state's evidence on saddam. 



Uh, turned states evidence? Uh, are you on some controlled substance? was Syria going to prosecute him? lol, maybe Iraq was going to prosecute saddam , based on the testimony? haha. L O G I C - Get some :smile:

Also, it was his older son that saddam, at one time, put a "contract" on, so his son left Iraq and went to some other Arab nation to hide out. They made peace, he's not dead.  hah actually he is, but we got the joy of nailing his head up on our wall, rather than daddy hussein :smile:


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In response to an attack killing 15 American Servicemen
PsiloKitten said:
Just give em a little more time, the iraqis are making great progress. And this is unorganized. Wait till they get organized.

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Re: Iraq: the lies go on [Re: Xlea321]
    #2005538 -

Alex123 said:
Has no real relevance, fails to make any point in regards to the topic or even to Iraq....

No, it has enormous relevance. When the article is trying to make a point about how terrible Saddam is because he used chemical weapons on "innocent civilians" the point that the US has done far, far worse is extremely relevant.


I'm going to use something called "Logic" here, if you are new to it, your local junir college possibly offeres classes relating to it (look under philosophy), so in 3 years when you get out of high school, you can check into it.

If you believe that the US's horrible gas attacks (which you don't have any links to show) are worse than Saddam's, you are still conceding that Saddam's attacks were bad. Maybe what "we" did in our past was wrong, Iwasn't alive during 'nam, so I won't take any blame for it. Bush Jr was barely alive during 'nam, so he certaintly shouldn't take any blame for it. Saddam Hussein, the very man we targeted, the very leader fo the regime we targeted, had, himself, orderd the use of chemical weapons against innocent civilians. If you belive that any leader using it against any groupd of innocents is wrong, you have to concede that what Saddam did was wrong. Also, if you have any knowledge of world history (if not, that same junior college can help!) you'd see that none of our present administration members had anything to do with any alleged crimes that took place in Vietnam. Thus, likening our current administration with Saddam is obviously logically fallacious.

Questions

1) Do you recognize that the current US administration had no dealings with, effect on, or power over, the situation or events that took place in Vietnam?

2) Do you believe that one singular administraion member was responsible for the deployment of Agent Orange in Vietnam, if so, which one?

3) Do you belive that Saddam Hussein, himself, not a past administration or a past ruling council of that nation, but SADDAM HUSSEIN HIMSELF, ordered chemical weapon attacks agaisnt innocent civilans?

4) Lets say for a moment that the US, in Vietnam, did deploy chemical/biological weapons. Would you say that that was a "bad" thing? An "evil" thing? To use those weapons, or any really, against unarmed civilians?

5) Now, that we know noone in our current administration had any connection with these allege "gasssings of innocents" in Vietnam, and also that gassing innocent people is wrong, and also that the man in charge of Iraq (er, who was in charge) was directly responsible for the actions that you deem as evil, do you possibly think that our removing Saddam was bad? You've already, through a series of questions, showed that you think that gassing innocent people is bad, and that Saddam, rather than some past administration, was responsible for it. Right?


Sadly, I'm sure not even this wil lconvince you. Typical liberal, the US can do no good, the evil dictators can do n wrong.


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In response to an attack killing 15 American Servicemen
PsiloKitten said:
Just give em a little more time, the iraqis are making great progress. And this is unorganized. Wait till they get organized.

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Re: Iraq: the lies go on [Re: lysergic]
    #2005615 -

You want to try checking your facts a little....

Link

God knows what happened to old Rummy along the way...must be something to do with ageing in the most violent nation on Earth.


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Always Smi2le

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Re: Iraq: the lies go on [Re: lysergic]
    #2005618 -

People, or groups, or individuals, claim, or assert, or believe, that saddam never had WMD's, thus, they can't be found. My statemet, or thought, or belive, was that Saddam OBVIOUSLY had these WMD's,

No-one has ever claimed Saddam never had chemical or biological agents.

For the tenth time it's whether he had them 6 MONTHS AGO. GET IT?

Do you belive that Saddam Hussein, himself, not a past administration or a past ruling council of that nation, but SADDAM HUSSEIN HIMSELF, ordered chemical weapon attacks agaisnt innocent civilans?

I've no idea. The 1991 CIA report stated quite firmly the Halabja gassing was done by Iran, not Iraq.

The CIA's own senior political analyst during the Iran Iraq war,
Stephen C. Pelletiere, who was responsible for drawing up a report
for the US government on the incident, stated very firmly that the
Iranians, and not the Iraqis, were responsible for the massacre of
Kurds by chemicals at Halabja in 1988. Pelletiere's report was in
fact published in the New York Times on 31 January 2003

"The agency did find that each side used gas against the other in
the battle around Halabja. The condition of the dead Kurds' bodies,
however, indicated they had been killed with a blood agent - that
is, a cyanide-based gas - which Iran was known to use. The Iraqis,
who are thought to have used mustard gas in the battle, are not
known to have possessed blood agents at the time."

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/01/31/opinion/31PELL.html?pagewanted=all&position=top

You've already, through a series of questions, showed that you think that gassing innocent people is bad, and that Saddam, rather than some past administration, was responsible for it. Right?

What's this "past administration" bullshit? So because you get away with it everything is hunky dory? Bush's father props Saddam up in power, gives him billion dollar loans, sells him biological and chemical agents, gives him intelligence during the Iran-iraq war, we just forget about that do we? And let his son lecture us on what a "dangerous" man Saddam was?

I've got a clue for you - some of us knew Saddam was a dangerous man 20 years ago when Rumsfield had his head up Saddams rectum and Reagan and Bush were so close to him it was dubbed "the love affair".

Typical liberal, the US can do no good, the evil dictators can do n wrong.

I think you'll find most liberals believe in NEVER supporting dictators. If Reagan and Bush hadn't saved Saddams ass during the Iran-Iraq war he could well have been ousted from power 15 years ago.



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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: Iraq: the lies go on [Re: Xlea321]
    #2005626 -

*sigh*
(edited by Rono)


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In response to an attack killing 15 American Servicemen
PsiloKitten said:
Just give em a little more time, the iraqis are making great progress. And this is unorganized. Wait till they get organized.

Edited by Rono (10/14/03 02:06 PM)

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Re: Iraq: the lies go on [Re: lysergic]
    #2005632 -

Edited by Rono.

Any chance of cutting the flames and addressing a point?

The quality of the right-wing "debate" here is weak enough as it is, we don't need you regressing even further back into your childhood and posting boring insults, we need you to THINK. Impress us with your knowledge for once. Tell us when you think Saddam used gas on innocent civilians. Back it up with fact. Give us something challenging for once, not this constant tiresome ineptness.

Deal?


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

Edited by Rono (10/14/03 02:07 PM)

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Re: Iraq: the lies go on [Re: lysergic]
    #2005642 -

"Sadly, I'm sure not even this wil lconvince you. Typical liberal, the US can do no good, the evil dictators can do n wrong."

funny you should say that since in your mind and many other conservative followers minds you think the US can't possibly do any wrong and you will hate anyone that bush tells you to. Typical conservative i guess...

You do realize that since the war on terror started the US government has killed something like 5 times more innocent civilans than the 9/11 attacks did...you realize this right?

and the government did it all without catching saddam or bin laden, AND without finding ANY WMD's

I guess it's time to invade iran eh?



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Religion is for people who are afraid of going to Hell; spirituality is for those who have been there.

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Re: Iraq: the lies go on [Re: JonnyOnTheSpot]
    #2005691 -

Johnny - I'd like you to show me how the US killed 15,000 innocent civilians. I can obtain alist of every person that died on 9/11 due to the terrorists, I'm sure that for you, a liberal, to make a claim like that, you must have proof!


We deposed the Taliban and brought freedom, we deposed the Ba'ath party and did the same. I realize that liberals care only about their own freedo, so this won't mean anything to you


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In response to an attack killing 15 American Servicemen
PsiloKitten said:
Just give em a little more time, the iraqis are making great progress. And this is unorganized. Wait till they get organized.

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Re: Iraq: the lies go on [Re: lysergic]
    #2005696 -

We deposed the Taliban and brought freedom

:wtf:


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: Iraq: the lies go on [Re: Xlea321]
    #2005698 -

If you honestly don't think that Afghanistan today is more-free than it was under Taliaban rule, state so, and I'll forever ignore your posts. (edited by Rono)


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In response to an attack killing 15 American Servicemen
PsiloKitten said:
Just give em a little more time, the iraqis are making great progress. And this is unorganized. Wait till they get organized.

Edited by Rono (10/14/03 02:08 PM)

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Re: Iraq: the lies go on [Re: lysergic]
    #2005728 -

Id love to see you prove Afghanistan is in a better posisiton now than it was before the invasion. With actual facts and sources. Not just your opinion you have learnt from watching Fox news.

I see you havent put your hands up and admitted you were wrong when you claimed no member of the current administration was involved with Vietnam. Oh yeah Bush Jr was barely alive during Vietnam? Well unless you are referring to the effects of too much coke and alcohol then you are once again spectacularly wrong. Dont feel too bad, I mean its obvious you are only a kid who is full of himself but perhaps you should try and educate yoursel a little more. It seems your self concept is not really in line with reality. I wouldnt recommend any serious doses of psychedelics until you have redressed this balance.


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Always Smi2le

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Re: Iraq: the lies go on [Re: GazzBut]
    #2005903 -

I'm sure that anything I offer as proof, you wouldn't accept.  How about this, my old platoon was in Afghanistan, and members that I sitll coorespond with tell me how it is over there. I'm sure you'll find some way to negate that, inyour own mind

Also, if you wanna talk shit about me, lets meet up some time and do it in person :smile:  I have no fucking idea how old Bush is, and it's entirely irrelavent to the post.    Uh, also, why would I admit I was wrong with the current administraions involvement in 'nam, show me some people who were.


Again, shit talking, do it to my face :smile: PM me to set up that meeting.


[edit] I read that link that was posted. I'm not sure what you think that proves, other than, again, the current administraion members had no involvement with the deployment of chemical or bilogical weapons? He was AGAINST the war, hard to tie the in with him being involved in using NBC weapons over there? (edited by Rono)


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In response to an attack killing 15 American Servicemen
PsiloKitten said:
Just give em a little more time, the iraqis are making great progress. And this is unorganized. Wait till they get organized.

Edited by Rono (10/14/03 02:09 PM)

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Re: Iraq: the lies go on [Re: Xlea321]
    #2005923 -

Alex123 said:
What's poor about it? The americans killed far more people with their use of chemical warfare than Saddam ever did. People are still dying from the thousands of tons of agent orange they dropped.



Even if this was so, would your allegation be that since, at a time in Americas past, we made a mistake, we are forced to let others do the same mistakes? Maybe since we nuked a country, we should let another country nuke us, and not retaliate. Wouldn't that be jolly.


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In response to an attack killing 15 American Servicemen
PsiloKitten said:
Just give em a little more time, the iraqis are making great progress. And this is unorganized. Wait till they get organized.

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Re: Iraq: the lies go on [Re: lysergic]
    #2006983 -

Have you ever considered, just for one moment, that George Bush might not be telling you the truth?

Again, shit talking, do it to my face

If you fight anything like you "debate" you'll be in intensive care for an awful long time lys. You really are better off sticking to talking shit on messageboards.

at a time in Americas past, we made a mistake

I see, so shipping an ruthless dictator chemical and biological agents, providing intelligence to save his ass in the Iran-Iraq war, giving him billion dollar loans and being so close to him it was dubbed "the love affair"...that's a "mistake" is it?  :rolleyes:


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: Iraq: the lies go on [Re: Xlea321]
    #2007006 -

It's also the "past"

I'm sure that my "fighting" skills greatly outweight my debating skills. You could ask a few Iraqi's about my proficiency with a rifle inthe Marines (2nd Recon batallion), but they probably aren't in a condition to answer you :-) Anyway, special forces Marine here, shit talking done to my face is what I prefer.


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In response to an attack killing 15 American Servicemen
PsiloKitten said:
Just give em a little more time, the iraqis are making great progress. And this is unorganized. Wait till they get organized.

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Re: Iraq: the lies go on [Re: lysergic]
    #2007019 -

So if Ted Bundy had murdered your wife but got away with it for 10 years you'd shake his hand and tell him it was ok because it was "the past"?

Funny how every right-winger you meet on internet messageboards is deadlier than Bruce Lee  :smirk: You should have a showdown with wingnutx and shakta.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: Iraq: the lies go on [Re: Xlea321]
    #2007058 -

Your analogy proves MY point, (edited by Rono) It's not the TIME, it's the involved parties. If the current administraion can be demonized for past administraions bad decisions in "nam, I'd like you to praise it for the past administraions "good" economic policies. Or does the carry over residual only work when it's proving that america is bad?

Now, let me point out why your example/analogy is fallacious. I stated that the CURRENT ADMINISTRATION should not be held responsible for PAST ADMINISTRATIONS actions. I also said that, since Saddam himself was the one that authorized the gassing ofthe Kurds, it was HIS fault. We aren't transferring blame here, it's either the PEOPLE that made the morally wrong action, or it's not. I'm sure you wouldn't chastize the current leader of Germany for the holocaust, or the invasion of Europe, would you?

Now, in your post, you asked if I would forgive someone for heinous actions in the past, if they got away from it. Of course I wouldn't, would you? If not, why couldn't we penalize saddam for using WMD's, after the fact. Do you think if the Kurds met saddam, they'd forgive him? Of course not, they'd demand justice.

You are a nitwit. Do you live with mommy and daddy still?


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In response to an attack killing 15 American Servicemen
PsiloKitten said:
Just give em a little more time, the iraqis are making great progress. And this is unorganized. Wait till they get organized.

Edited by Rono (10/14/03 01:58 PM)

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