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InvisibleEdame
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Registered: 01/14/03
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Rumsfeld: No rush to try terror suspects
    #1906599 - 09/11/03 07:00 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Amazing. From what I can gather, this means that the US can kidnap a person from just about anywhere in the world, and hold them incommunicado for an indefinite period, without charge, trial, or access to a lawyer. Whatever happened to innocent until proven guilty?

Quote:

Rumsfeld: No rush to try terror suspects

WASHINGTON (AP) --Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld says most suspected terrorists at a U.S. prison camp in Cuba will probably be detained for the course of the global war on terrorism rather than face trial. That sparked criticism from lawyers who said U.S. legal tradition insists on a transparent and open judicial process.

Rumsfeld said Wednesday he expects some trials but prefers that most continue to be held at the Guantanamo Bay facility.

"Our interest is in not trying them and letting them out," he said. "Our interest is in -- during this global war on terror -- keeping them off the streets, and so that's what's taking place."

Erwin Chemerinsky, law professor at University of Southern California, said there is no authority in American or international law to hold these people indefinitely with no judicial process.

"It's outrageous," Chemerinsky said. "There are no signs that the war on terrorism is nearing an end, so the government is saying it can hold people indefinitely and likely for the rest of their lives without complying with the requirements of international law."

Human rights groups and countries of detained nationals have criticized the United States for refusing to designate the detainees as prisoners of war under international conventions.

The Guantanamo Bay detention center holds about 660 men from 42 countries detained for alleged links to Osama bin Laden's al Qaeda terror network or the ousted Afghan Taliban regime that sheltered it. They include three teenagers whom the military may recommend for release soon.

Mariano-Florentino Cuellar, an assistant professor at Stanford Law School, was also critical of the government's plan. He said people are sometimes detained as enemy combatants during wars but the same reasoning doesn't apply in a nontraditional conflict like the war on terrorism.

"It is a war that does not have an end and the battlefield is spread across the world," Cuellar said.

"Whether an administrative or judicial process, there needs to be an accounting of why someone is being held," he said. "That's why we have a judicial process."

Rumsfeld said the Pentagon is prepared to proceed to trial if President Bush makes that decision.

"We have the apparatus arranged, ready, and we have a very fine group of advisers as to how to do it in the event it has to be done," he said. "But for the moment, we don't have any candidates."

Still, the vagueness made some in the legal profession uneasy.

"How long could that be?" asked Stephen Dycus, Vermont Law School professor. "If the answer is potentially forever, then we've really created a new institution by which we can take people, lock them away -- and that's not locking them up in the same way for a common criminal, but isolating them from the world, held incommunicado, where they don't have access to counsel or the court system."

Part of the problem with the system Rumsfeld discussed, is that there's no way to find out what's going on or to test the validity of their detention, said Dycus.

"There has been no demonstration that we couldn't put these guys on trial; if indeed they are criminals, lock them up and keep them out of trouble," he said.




"Our interest is in not trying them and letting them out," he said. "Our interest is in -- during this global war on terror -- keeping them off the streets, and so that's what's taking place."

That's the telling quote for me. He gives the impression that there is no solid basis on which to try most of these men, and that they would probably end up being released if they were. So lets just presume their guilt and lock them away indefinitely instead.


--------------------
The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
:tongue:

In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience.

And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him.

"Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,203
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Re: Rumsfeld: No rush to try terror suspects [Re: Edame]
    #1906666 - 09/11/03 07:23 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

That's fucked up all right.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Offlinefalcon
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Re: Rumsfeld: No rush to try terror suspects [Re: Edame]
    #1907483 - 09/11/03 11:15 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

I think we are doing this as favor to the House of Saud, there are a lot of Saudi Arabians held at Guantanamo.  If they talk the King would have some splaining to do. :blush:   


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OfflineLearyfan
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Re: Rumsfeld: No rush to try terror suspects [Re: Edame]
    #1907622 - 09/11/03 11:59 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Hey........9-11






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Invisibleafoaf
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Re: Rumsfeld: No rush to try terror suspects [Re: Edame]
    #1907646 - 09/12/03 12:06 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

it's especially scary when they start applying the
'terrorist' label, which they use as the precedent
for these aberrations against the constitution, to
methamphetamine manufactures and other
domestic miscreants.

scary times.


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All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.


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Offlineshakta
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Re: Rumsfeld: No rush to try terror suspects [Re: afoaf]
    #1908137 - 09/12/03 02:51 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

I agree with you. I don't think any dope cooks are going to be sent to Gitmo anytime soon though. On a related note, I heard an interesting story on the radio the other day. We have been getting tons of information from these people with 3 new tools. These tools are Twinkies, Ding Dongs, and Happy Meals. I don't know how credible this is, but the story was on a news radio channel, and sounded authentic.


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OfflineCornholio
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Registered: 01/13/03
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Re: Rumsfeld: No rush to try terror suspects [Re: shakta]
    #1908646 - 09/12/03 05:30 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

shakta said:
I heard an interesting story on the radio the other day. We have been getting tons of information from these people with 3 new tools. These tools are Twinkies, Ding Dongs, and Happy Meals. I don't know how credible this is, but the story was on a news radio channel, and sounded authentic. 


You'd better hope it's not right.  If kindness is a more effective tool than cruelty, then Bush is going down the wrong path, just like the libbies have been saying all along...  :wink: 


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Offlineshakta
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Re: Rumsfeld: No rush to try terror suspects [Re: Cornholio]
    #1908836 - 09/12/03 09:12 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Nah. I think they like the toys in the happy meals the most. If they give us enough info, they can collect them all.


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Invisiblewhiterasta
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Re: Rumsfeld: No rush to try terror suspects [Re: shakta]
    #1908980 - 09/12/03 11:09 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

I don't think any dope cooks are going to be sent to Gitmo anytime soon 




Er....UH The first meth bust being treated as "terrorism" has already happened and terrorism charges are soon coming for pot smugglers from Canada.Gitmo maybe not....trial maybe not....Constitutional Definately NOT!
WR :rolleyes: 


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Invisibleafoaf
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Re: Rumsfeld: No rush to try terror suspects [Re: shakta]
    #1908989 - 09/12/03 11:13 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

/rimshot


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Offlinesirreal
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Re: Rumsfeld: No rush to try terror suspects [Re: Edame]
    #1908998 - 09/12/03 11:16 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Edame said:
That's the telling quote for me.  He gives the impression that there is no solid basis on which to try most of these men, and that they would probably end up being released if they were.  So lets just presume their guilt and lock them away indefinitely instead. 




They are gathering evidence. Give them time,they will find something. :wink: 


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I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
-----------

I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!


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InvisibleAutonomous
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Re: Rumsfeld: No rush to try terror suspects [Re: sirreal]
    #1909010 - 09/12/03 11:19 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

sirreal said:
They are gathering evidence. Give them time,they will find something. :wink: 



Ah, the term is 'manufacturing evidence.'


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"In religion and politics people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination."
-- Mark Twain


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Offlinest0nedphucker
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Re: Rumsfeld: No rush to try terror suspects [Re: Autonomous]
    #1909014 - 09/12/03 11:21 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

LOL, true


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The punishment which the wise suffer, who refuse to take part in government, is to live under the government of worse men.


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Offlinesirreal
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Re: Rumsfeld: No rush to try terror suspects [Re: Autonomous]
    #1909015 - 09/12/03 11:21 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Autonomous said:
Quote:

sirreal said:
They are gathering evidence. Give them time,they will find something. :wink: 



Ah, the term is 'manufacturing evidence.




I was gonna say that but I did not feel like fighting this morning. :tongue: 


--------------------
I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
-----------

I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!


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Anonymous

Re: Rumsfeld: No rush to try terror suspects [Re: Edame]
    #1909035 - 09/12/03 11:31 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Fucking Rumsfeld is a dick.

Ashcroft is all petitioning for speeding up trials and all this bullshit, and theyre not in a rush to put anyone to trial?

God, the situation in this country, and the rest of the world, is utterly disturbing. Shits going to hit the fan in the next 15 years, and its gonna be FUCKED up.


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Invisibleafoaf
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Re: Rumsfeld: No rush to try terror suspects [Re: ]
    #1909104 - 09/12/03 12:03 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

it already is...


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OfflineTheHobbit
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Re: Rumsfeld: No rush to try terror suspects [Re: afoaf]
    #1909840 - 09/12/03 04:13 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

I just pray these fuckwads get voted out next year! Keeping those people there like that IS a fuckin' outrage, hard to believe that they're all guilty of something realed to terrorism, so there's probably some people there being held for no reason without access to representation or contact with family...too bad those planes didn't just go straight for the White fucking House instead of ending innocent worthwhile lives.


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Offlineshakta
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Re: Rumsfeld: No rush to try terror suspects [Re: TheHobbit]
    #1909852 - 09/12/03 04:16 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

TheHobbit said:
I just pray these fuckwads get voted out next year! Keeping those people there like that IS a fuckin' outrage, hard to believe that they're all guilty of something realed to terrorism, so there's probably some people there being held for no reason without access to representation or contact with family...too bad those planes didn't just go straight for the White fucking House instead of ending innocent worthwhile lives. 




Yeah, that would have accomplished something since Bush was across the country at the time. :rolleyes:

I really don't have much of a problem with Gitmo. I think it definately is serving as a warning to the leftover Baathists. If we catch you and you don't cooperate with us you are headed straight to Gitmo.


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InvisibleEdame
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Re: Rumsfeld: No rush to try terror suspects [Re: shakta]
    #1910153 - 09/12/03 05:20 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

You don't have a problem with 600 men being detained indefinitely without charge? It sounds to me like you're already assuming they're guilty of something.


--------------------
The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
:tongue:

In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience.

And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him.

"Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.


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Offlineshakta
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Re: Rumsfeld: No rush to try terror suspects [Re: Edame]
    #1910167 - 09/12/03 05:22 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

It is hard for me not to assume they are guilty to be honest. After 9-11 the people at Gitmo represent everything we hate.


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