Noteworthy said:

judgement day is coming! (apparently)

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AlphaFalfa said:

I have been visiting organic/permaculture farms recently and have come to the realization that it is definitely impossible to farm organizally without the aid of animals. Animals provide manure which is the only way to fertilize the extensive veggetable and grain fields nessecary to feed a vegan and secondly farm animals proide physical force that otherwise could not possibly be exterted by an ordinary human attempting to feed themselves a vegan lifestyle. That is without starving due to not having the amount of caloric intake nessecary for the work that would be nessecary without the animal.

The only reason a vegan exists is because of the privelidged existence in this society and its use of fossil fuels, which like a vegan is not sustainable.

This argument is why in india there hardly exists vegans on farms that do not use fertilizer made from natural gas or potash.

Just something I concluded after visiting the last farm, of which has eggs and dairy as a part of their diet but also fish and seafood.

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AlphaFalfa said:

Noteworthy said:

AlphaFalfa,

Who gives a [conceptual] shit about vegans who refuse to use animal manure?

There is no reasonable argument against using animal manure

Vegans base their moral on avoiding cruelty to animals. Farming animals for their manure would be against vegan morals, but collecting the excriment from an animal is not. Because animals always excriment.

It is wrong for vegans to milk an animal because that involves extracting something from it that it would naturally retain or give to its young.
It is not wrong for vegans to collect the naturally dropped products of animals.

But much of what you say is true - permaculture aint a walk in the park and ought to involve animals.

Though something you have not mentioned - if we were vegans, we could use our own excrement to fertilise.

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it is technically impossible to feed humans for a very very long time, well atleast until the earths changes end our ability to do so, UNLESS we turn to permacultural practice. Therefore, the irony of vegans is that their attempt to reduce the amount of suffering of animals, increases the amount of suffering for humans, if not immidiatley, in the future.

This isn't bad, but its just that people don't understand how they get their food, completly, usually most are either completely oblivious and logically speaking, it would seed that anyone who is a vegan would also be oblivious to it.

Too bad....

Anyways, i agree with that two fold, i've experienced permaculture at its best and its impossible even with human excrement to fertilize proportionatly to our food needs.

Cheers,

Double A

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Elliot said:

It is more than sustainable:

We only disagree with the use and abuse of animals, for example, animals like cows pigs and chickens, we love them and want them to exist, we can do so without using them.

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