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Offlinewingnutx
Registered: 09/25/00
Posts: 2,268
Last seen: 5 years, 5 months
Iraq may be on the edge but France has hit rock bottom abyss
    #1844827 - 08/24/03 03:50 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

http://www.portal.telegraph.co.uk/opinio...08/23/ixop.html

Iraq may be on the edge but France has hit rock bottom abyss
By Mark Steyn
(Filed: 23/08/2003)


'The US and British armies have entered the gates of hell," thundered George Galloway last month. "Soon it will be 100 degrees at midnight in Baghdad, but there will be no respite from the need for full body armour."

As usual, George was a little off. The gates of hell are on the p?riph?rique and it's 100 degrees at midnight in the pissoir on the Metro. To date, two US soldiers are believed to have succumbed to the heat in Iraq, whereas over 10,000 people have succumbed to it in France.

That would make George's brutal Iraqi summer about one five-thousandth as lethal as the brutal Gallic summer, which has killed more people than the brutal Afghan winter (now 23 months behind schedule), the brutal Iraqi summer and the searing heat of the Guantanamo torture camps combined and multiplied by a thousand.

Certainly, Iraq has its problems. Jacques Chirac, en vacances just up the road from me in North Hatley, Quebec, took time out of his three-week holiday to issue a statement on events in Baghdad, where 20 people died on Tuesday. But he didn't bother to interrupt his vacation to issue a statement on events in France, where so many people have died, the funeral homes are standing room only and they're having to store bodies in the freezers at the fruit and veg markets.

Now that his old pal and nuclear client has been removed from power, M Chirac is utterly irrelevant to the future of Iraq. But surely France still falls within his jurisdiction, doesn't it?

And where are the Red Cross and Oxfam and Human Rights Watch and all the other noisy humanitarians? If 10,000 Iraqis had died of dysentery on George W Bush's watch, you'd never hear the end of it. A few weeks back, with three fatal cases of cholera, the Humanitarian Lobby was already shrieking that we stood on the edge of a humanitarian catastrophe.

France isn't on the edge, it's in the abyss. When I motored round Iraq a couple of months ago, the hospital wards were well below capacity. Yet in France the entire health system ? or that percentage of it not spending August at the beach ? is stretched beyond its limits (35 hours a week, 44 weeks a year). Why aren't M?decins Sans Fronti?res demanding to be allowed in to take over?

There's an old, cynical formula for the weight accorded different disasters on American TV news. It runs something like: one dead American = 10 dead Israelis = 100 dead Russians = 1,000 dead Bangladeshis. But 10,000 French can die, and even the French don't seem to care ? or not too much, and not with any great urgency.

Bernard Mazeyrie, managing director of France's largest undertakers, told the New York Times that several of the bereaved were in no hurry to bury their aged loved ones: "Some, he said, informed of the death of relatives, postponed funerals, not to interrupt the August 15 holiday weekend, and left the bodies in the refrigerated hall." Au bord de la mer? Ou au bord de ma m?re? Hmm. Tough call.

I don't know what M Chirac heard in the d?panneurs and resto-bars of Quebec this week, but what I heard south of the border was complete amazement at how a nominally First World country could be so insouciant about an entirely avoidable Third World death toll. President Bush and the entire Washington press corps are spending a month in heat equal to the brutal Parisian summer, and he's playing golf in it all day while they stand around watching; in Phoenix tomorrow and Monday, it will be an unremarkable 105. This isn't about the weather.

In Paris this spring, a government official explained to me how Europeans had created a more civilised society than America - socialised healthcare, shorter work weeks, more holidays. We've just seen where that leads: gran'ma turned away from the hospital to die in an airless apartment because junior's sur la plage. M Chirac's somewhat tetchy suggestion that his people should rethink their attitude to the elderly was well taken. But Big Government inevitably diminishes its citizens' capacity to take responsibility, to the point where even your dead mum is just one more inconvenience the state should do something about.

Meanwhile, Maggie Pernot wrote the other day to chide me for my continued defence of the Rumsfeld Death Camps at Guantanamo. The prisoners, she complains, are "kept in tiny, chainlink outdoor cages where they were likely to be rained upon". In fact, they have sloping roofs and cool concrete floors, perfect for the climate. If they had solid walls rather than airy wire mesh, they'd be Parisian sweatboxes and everyone would be dead. By contrast, if those thousands of French pensioners had been captured by the Marines and detained by Rummy in Cuba, they'd be alive today.

Mme Pernot writes from St Julien, France. That's right: she's surrounded by an actual humanitarian scandal on all sides but she'd rather obsess about an entirely fictional one. Heat getting to you, Madame? Or just the unusual odour from the flat next door?


France: Up to 10,000 dead in heat wave

How the hell do 10,000 people die from 100 degree heat?


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Iraq may be on the edge but France has hit rock bottom abyss [Re: wingnutx]
    #1844917 - 08/24/03 05:55 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Does this moron even realise the people who died in France were elderly rather than soldiers in peak physical condition?

If 10,000 Iraqis had died of dysentery on George W Bush's watch you'd never hear the end of it

Strange idea. Most americans don't even have a clue that the sanctions were responsible for the slaughter of well over 750,000 Iraqi children under 5. Yet this Bushmuncher believes the media would bother to report a few thousand more.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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OfflineSev
Astropath
Registered: 06/06/03
Posts: 1,426
Loc: NY
Last seen: 2 years, 1 month
Re: Iraq may be on the edge but France has hit rock bottom a [Re: Xlea321]
    #1844956 - 08/24/03 07:03 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Alex123 said:
Does this moron even realise the people who died in France were elderly rather than soldiers in peak physical condition?




Naw, he's just french-bashing.  :smile:

Quote:

but what I heard south of the border was complete amazement at how a nominally First World country could be so insouciant about an entirely avoidable Third World death toll.




I love how they say this is 'entirely avoidable'.  It was all old people dying in their apartments, people in bad physical condition.  Most places aren't air conditioned in those regions, because it just doesn't get hot enough to need it. 

Even in NYC, a place which has experience with old-folk-killin' heat waves and lots of AC, old people still kick off every8 time the temp gets over 95 or so.


--------------------
"Do we want the stars? We can have them. Can we borrow cups of fire from the sun? We can and must and light the world." --"On the Shoulders of Giants", Ray Bradbury

All of my posts are full of fiction and blatant lies.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 33,718
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Iraq may be on the edge but France has hit rock bottom abyss [Re: wingnutx]
    #1845007 - 08/24/03 08:35 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Sad story, but a good point.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Offlinewingnutx
Registered: 09/25/00
Posts: 2,268
Last seen: 5 years, 5 months
Re: Iraq may be on the edge but France has hit rock bottom a [Re: Sev]
    #1845136 - 08/24/03 12:10 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Even in NYC, a place which has experience with old-folk-killin' heat waves and lots of AC, old people still kick off every8 time the temp gets over 95 or so.





Same here. During a really hot summer, say 115 or over, we lose up to 5 of them.


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Iraq may be on the edge but France has hit rock bottom abyss [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1845145 - 08/24/03 12:16 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Sad story, but a good point.

What "point" are you referring to?


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 33,718
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Iraq may be on the edge but France has hit rock bottom abyss [Re: Xlea321]
    #1845160 - 08/24/03 12:28 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

That the French are assholes.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Iraq may be on the edge but France has hit rock bottom abyss [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1845264 - 08/24/03 01:42 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

So what's got you so down on "the french" luv?


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 33,718
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Iraq may be on the edge but France has hit rock bottom abyss [Re: Xlea321]
    #1845303 - 08/24/03 01:55 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

I've always found them to be arrogant pricks.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Offlined33p
Welcome to Violence

Registered: 07/12/03
Posts: 5,381
Loc: the shores of Tripoli
Last seen: 3 years, 6 months
Re: Iraq may be on the edge but France has hit rock bottom abyss [Re: Xlea321]
    #1845460 - 08/24/03 03:18 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Alex123 said:
- 08/24/03 05:55 AM the slaughter of well over 750,000 Iraqi children under 5.

- 08/15/03 03:26 PM sanctions policy that left 750,000 iraqi children under 5 dead?

- 02/26/03 08:44 PM genocidal sanctions that have killed well over 500,000 children under 5.

- 02/24/03 08:59 PM responsible for the deaths of those 500,000 children under five?





So in 6 months your toll of iraqi kid's deaths due to US sanctions increased 50%? Or does 750,000 just sound better than 500,000


--------------------
I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

bang bang


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Anonymous

Re: Iraq may be on the edge but France has hit rock bottom abyss [Re: d33p]
    #1845468 - 08/24/03 03:24 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

id sure love to see some documentation of that 500k+ deaths shit.

anyone got any?


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Offlineshakta
Infidel
Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2,633
Last seen: 12 years, 6 months
Re: Iraq may be on the edge but France has hit rock bottom abyss [Re: ]
    #1845584 - 08/24/03 04:19 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

I have read reports of Saddam ordering hospitals to 'save up' dead bodies to use as 'proof' of the sanctions effects.


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OfflineFileSoup
member
Registered: 08/09/03
Posts: 142
Last seen: 13 years, 1 month
Re: Iraq may be on the edge but France has hit rock bottom abyss [Re: Xlea321]
    #1845738 - 08/24/03 05:32 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

"Strange idea. Most americans don't even have a clue that the sanctions were responsible for the slaughter of well over 750,000 Iraqi children under 5. Yet this Bushmuncher believes the media would bother to report a few thousand more. "

That is complete bullshit. How were sactions responsible for the slaguter of 750,000 children?


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OfflineCornholio
A liberal guy(on hiatus)

Registered: 01/13/03
Posts: 845
Loc: Austin, TX
Last seen: 13 years, 19 days
Re: Iraq may be on the edge but France has hit rock bottom abyss [Re: FileSoup]
    #1845853 - 08/24/03 06:18 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

FileSoup said:
That is complete bullshit. How were sactions responsible for the slaguter of 750,000 children?


PLENTY of evidence (here's one article). Even the United Nations International Children's Emergency Fund (UNICEF) reported over 500,000 Iraqi children dead as a result of the sanctions. Do a Google search, and you'll find plenty of evidence about the genocide caused by the sanctions.


--------------------


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Offlineshakta
Infidel
Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2,633
Last seen: 12 years, 6 months
Re: Iraq may be on the edge but France has hit rock bottom abyss [Re: Cornholio]
    #1845855 - 08/24/03 06:20 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

The argument really is who is to blame for the deaths? Saddam or the US. Libbies like to blame the US, even though Saddam caused the sanctions, and did everything he could have to keep them from being lifted.


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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/19/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 1 year, 10 months
Re: Iraq may be on the edge but France has hit rock bottom a [Re: ]
    #1845921 - 08/24/03 06:39 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

id sure love to see some documentation of that 500k+ deaths shit.
anyone got any?


No one does, because it is an imaginary number.

I have posted in this forum six or seven times now links to a question and answer page regarding the only actual statistical studies done on the change in infant mortality rate pre-sanctions and mid-sanctions. They were done by UNICEF.

The authors of the study went to great pains to warn against using their studies to arrive at a figure of deaths due to sanctions. Of course, their warnings were ignored, and various people have come up with various numbers. The more intellectually dishonest of them claim that they pulled the numbers from the UNICEF studies -- why they think people will believe this claim is beyond me since the authors of the studies gave no such numbers and categorically stated that no such numbers can be derived from their work, but hey... whaddya gonna do?

pinky



--------------------


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Offlined33p
Welcome to Violence

Registered: 07/12/03
Posts: 5,381
Loc: the shores of Tripoli
Last seen: 3 years, 6 months
Re: Iraq may be on the edge but France has hit rock bottom abyss [Re: shakta]
    #1845922 - 08/24/03 06:40 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Using 100,000 to make a golden shitter doesn't help out starving kids either. But even tho saddam did nothing to protect against the deaths of his people im sure its still the us's fault.


--------------------
I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

bang bang


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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/19/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 1 year, 10 months
Re: Iraq may be on the edge but France has hit rock bottom a [Re: Cornholio]
    #1845928 - 08/24/03 06:43 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Cornholio writes:

Even the United Nations International Children's Emergency Fund (UNICEF) reported over 500,000 Iraqi children dead as a result of the sanctions.

Incorrect. "UNICEF" stated no such thing.

This is what happens when you accept other people's versions of what people say rather than reading what was actually said. See my above post.

pinky


--------------------


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Offlineshakta
Infidel
Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2,633
Last seen: 12 years, 6 months
Re: Iraq may be on the edge but France has hit rock bottom abyss [Re: d33p]
    #1845931 - 08/24/03 06:44 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Of course it is. We get credited with every bad thing that happens in the world, and never get credited for the good things we have done.


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Offlinemonoamine
umask 077(nonefor you)

Registered: 09/07/02
Posts: 3,095
Loc: Jacksonville,FL
Last seen: 11 years, 2 months
Re: Iraq may be on the edge but France has hit rock bottom a [Re: Phred]
    #1846208 - 08/24/03 08:36 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Even the United Nations International Children's Emergency Fund (UNICEF) reported over 500,000 Iraqi children dead as a result of the sanctions.




It would be nearly impossible to compile accurate statistics on the matter. It's kind of like when NIDA reports the amount of money lost from employee drug abuse. How the hell do they even begin to go about doing this? It's reductionism to absurdity.

That's kind of why I think its annoying when every other post,people ask for a source on an informal message board. Hard statistics by themselves prove nothing.Statistics backed by logical thinking go a lot further.And just because a source is "official" doesn't mean you should automatically assume it's correct.Do you look at the source's source and further down the line?

It doesn't matter anyway.It's not very hard to see that because of our sanctions policy,the Iraqi people suffered,while it did very little to Sadam's regime.


--------------------
People think that if you just say the word "hallucinations" it explains everything you want it to explain and eventually whatever it is you can't explain will just go away.It's just a word,it doesn't explain anything...
Douglas Adams


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