JoieDeVivre said:

I'm so torn about this. Obviously the kid should be punished but wishing violence on him and getting pleasure out of the idea is doing exactly what he does.

Clearly the kid is very mentally fucked up, if he had gotten help for his issues or had decent parents none of these kids would have been killed. Obviously he doesn't even have a grasp on cause and effect or have any sense of empathy.

Imagine yourself being in this kid's position, ACTUALLY in his mind not with your own morality. He's so disconnected from reality and being raped in prison isn't going to fix that or make reparations for anything that he has done. I think a better option would be intensive therapy (nothing more expensive than keeping him in prison ideally) so that he DOES feel some remorse for what he has done and so that the parents of the victims can get some closure.

We need to be preemptive as a society on this sort of thing. After the fact punishment doesn't do anything to prevent it from happening again unfortunately.

---

JoieDeVivre said:

trekie said:

Too bad ohio doesnt have the death plenty

---

What good would the death penalty do? I never understand why people want the death penalty for horrendous crimes. It would be getting off easy for the kid anyway, life in prison is WAY worse than just ending life. Life in prison means you are actually paying for what you have done. Now, I know US prisons aren't ideal for this because they're all about for profit work but ideally a prison should make it's inmates give back to the society they harmed.

---

JoieDeVivre said:

abltsandwich said:

I don't care if that makes me "better" or "worse" than him; but one thing is certain:  I didn't shoot up a school.  So there's that.  And you don't know what drove the kid to kill anyone.  Whether or not he's beyond help is totally irrelevant because he doesn't deserve help.  I hope the rest of his life is fucking miserable.

---

You don't care that it makes you just as bad as him?

---

What the fuck?  Are you serious? 

abltsandwich, seek professional help immediately.  You are just as bad as this kid!

Pris when did I ever say the kid shouldn't be in prison? I've advocated a life sentence many times and have never once said I think he could be a productive member of society. I'm saying we can learn from this, we never learn from these mass murders we just have a court case and it's done with. We should honestly be having a national discussion about how to prevent this from happening again because, yes, his developmental environment is a large part of what caused his actions. Kids from happy homes who aren't picked on and neglected don't grow up to be mass murderers.

That is not to say society or anyone who raised him is responsible for his behavior, but rather we are responsible for discouraging this from happening again and the death penalty is NOT the way to do that. People who commit mass murders generally don't give a shit if they live or die, and thus death is not really a punishment. In many cases it's what the criminal would prefer and what they likely would have done on their own if they had a chance.

Again I'll stress that I'm not saying this kid could ever be a part of normal society, I'm just saying we could definitely learn a lot from studying his past and current physiology and the parents of the victims would probably get more closure if eventually this kid could look them in the eye and say, "I'm a piece of shit and I'm sorry for what happened," rather than flipping them off and relishing in their pain.

blankk said:

JoieDeVivre said:

abltsandwich said:

I don't care if that makes me "better" or "worse" than him; but one thing is certain:  I didn't shoot up a school.  So there's that.  And you don't know what drove the kid to kill anyone.  Whether or not he's beyond help is totally irrelevant because he doesn't deserve help.  I hope the rest of his life is fucking miserable.

---

You don't care that it makes you just as bad as him?

---

What the fuck?  Are you serious? 

abltsandwich, seek professional help immediately.  You are just as bad as this kid!

---

JoieDeVivre said:

I'm so torn about this. Obviously the kid should be punished but wishing violence on him and getting pleasure out of the idea is doing exactly what he does.

Clearly the kid is very mentally fucked up, if he had gotten help for his issues or had decent parents none of these kids would have been killed. Obviously he doesn't even have a grasp on cause and effect or have any sense of empathy.

Imagine yourself being in this kid's position, ACTUALLY in his mind not with your own morality. He's so disconnected from reality and being raped in prison isn't going to fix that or make reparations for anything that he has done. I think a better option would be intensive therapy (nothing more expensive than keeping him in prison ideally) so that he DOES feel some remorse for what he has done and so that the parents of the victims can get some closure.

We need to be preemptive as a society on this sort of thing. After the fact punishment doesn't do anything to prevent it from happening again unfortunately.

---

JoieDeVivre said:

Yes, humans can commit terrible atrocities. It makes them no less human, it means they're warped probably because they haven't been as lucky as you and I in our life experiences and genetic predispositions.

---

qman said:

"if he had gotten help for his issues..none of these kids would be dead." 

You don't know that, some people are beyond help.

---

You don't know that. There's no real basis for saying that. I'm willing to bet that if this kid was raised decently and actually taken to get his obvious control and anger issues resolved years ago he wouldn't feel like his only choice was to kill his classmates and then be smug about it. With the level of sociopathy he appears to exhibit, I feel like he'd probably have been recognized as a threat pretty early by any mental health professional. It's generally accepted that both nature and nurture play a role in someone's development and so if he was naturally psychotic, a really great upbringing could help to lessen that or at least find a decent outlet for it.

Quote:

"We need to be preemptive as a society on this sort of thing"

Sometimes things are not preventable, decent people commit nasty crimes without warning.

---

qman said:

JoieDeVivre said:

Yes, humans can commit terrible atrocities. It makes them no less human, it means they're warped probably because they haven't been as lucky as you and I in our life experiences and genetic predispositions.

---

Were the Germans who put Jews into gas chambers warped, or have bad genetic predispositions?  Some would say they were quite rational, and genetically normal.

---

JoieDeVivre said:

I'm not saying physically it's the same but the intention is the same, the malice and hatred is the same, the desire for more violence is there.

---

JoieDeVivre said:

qman said:

"if he had gotten help for his issues..none of these kids would be dead." 

You don't know that, some people are beyond help.

---

You don't know that. There's no real basis for saying that. I'm willing to bet that if this kid was raised decently and actually taken to get his obvious control and anger issues resolved years ago he wouldn't feel like his only choice was to kill his classmates and then be smug about it. With the level of sociopathy he appears to exhibit, I feel like he'd probably have been recognized as a threat pretty early by any mental health professional. It's generally accepted that both nature and nurture play a role in someone's development and so if he was naturally psychotic, a really great upbringing could help to lessen that or at least find a decent outlet for it.

Quote:

"We need to be preemptive as a society on this sort of thing"

Sometimes things are not preventable, decent people commit nasty crimes without warning.

---

Decent people never commit crimes without reason. There's always something that causes it be it a psychotic break, hallucinations, illusions of being "stuck" or having no other choice, stress, underlying mental illness, etc.

qman said:

JoieDeVivre said:

Yes, humans can commit terrible atrocities. It makes them no less human, it means they're warped probably because they haven't been as lucky as you and I in our life experiences and genetic predispositions.

---

Were the Germans who put Jews into gas chambers warped, or have bad genetic predispositions?  Some would say they were quite rational, and genetically normal.

---

It wasn't anything about their genetics. In some cases I'm sure some Germans were actually enjoying what they were doing and invested in it but more likely it's a case like we see in the Milligram experiment where otherwise rational people are persuaded into doing horrible things to other people just because an authority figure said it was okay.

---

I think that getting enjoyment out of the idea of some kid being raped, even if he's done horrendous things, is disgusting and I don't think it's any different than what the killer was thinking. You think they're just similar, and I think they're pretty much the same. The difference here is in the action, not the intention.

Wishing violence on someone for committing violence is a perpetuating cycle.

What I really meant to emphasize by saying that was to show the perpetuating cycle. We see violence, we respond violently which inspires others to do the same and it's a vicious cycle. We don't learn from it, we just harbor malice and we become cynical. That's probably what this kid was doing, he perceived the world around him as being violent towards him and he pushed back. (Obviously his perception of the world was warped and his response was completely illogical.)

qman said:

So in many cases, normal rational "decent" people do commit horrible crimes, and "actually enjoying what they were doing", this seems to differ from your original thesis that a person must be "warped" to commit horrible crimes.

---

JoieDeVivre said:

I think that getting enjoyment out of the idea of some kid being raped, even if he's done horrendous things, is disgusting and I don't think it's any different than what the killer was thinking. You think they're just similar, and I think they're pretty much the same. The difference here is in the action, not the intention.

Wishing violence on someone for committing violence is a perpetuating cycle.

What I really meant to emphasize by saying that was to show the perpetuating cycle. We see violence, we respond violently which inspires others to do the same and it's a vicious cycle. We don't learn from it, we just harbor malice and we become cynical. That's probably what this kid was doing, he perceived the world around him as being violent towards him and he pushed back. (Obviously his perception of the world was warped and his response was completely illogical.)

qman said:

So in many cases, normal rational "decent" people do commit horrible crimes, and "actually enjoying what they were doing", this seems to differ from your original thesis that a person must be "warped" to commit horrible crimes.

---

By warped I meant that the mindset is warped and illogical, or not based in rational reality, not necessarily a genetic predisposition. Which is what happened in Germany too. It's not like the majority of people following Hitler came up with wanting to commit crimes on their own, they were influenced rather easily because Hitler was a great manipulator and Germany was destitute. Their minds were easily warped to do his bidding, which can happen to any normal decent and rational person.

I think it's clear that the kid's mindset was warped, definitely due in part to his environment. It's hard to say if he had any genetic predisposition but considering his complete disconnect from reality and lack of empathy I'd say it's probably a factor.

---

JoieDeVivre said:

I think that getting enjoyment out of the idea of some kid being raped, even if he's done horrendous things, is disgusting and I don't think it's any different than what the killer was thinking.

---

Quote:

Reactions of friends

A friend of T.J. Lane described him as "a very normal, just teenage boy", she told CNN that she was in "complete shock" from the incident. She went on to say that Lane often had a sad look in his eyes, but came across as completely normal. Another friend said that Lane was regularly teased at school, which resulted in the teenager "put[ting] a wall around himself" and refusing to divulge personal information. A third student told reporters that Lane had come from "a really broken-down home", and was a quiet person who could be nice to others if he felt comfortable with them.

Students at the Lake Academy denied that he had been bullied. They described him as friendly and nice, but not very talkative. The Academy students were also concerned about the depiction of them in the press as "at risk." The school's Director of Special Education said that the students prefer to be referred to as "kids who need a different setting to succeed."

Suspect's violent past

On February 29, 2013, Tim Grendell, the juvenile court judge presiding over Lane's case, allowed the release of the suspect's juvenile records to the press. According to his records, T.J. Lane was arrested twice in December 2009. The first time, Lane restrained his uncle, while his cousin hit him. The other case involved Lane hitting another boy in the face. To the second charge, Lane pled to a count of disorderly conduct.

Although family court records concerning T.J. Lane had not been released, as of March 12, 2013, the press did expose criminal records of Lane's father, Thomas M. Lane, Jr. The records showed that in 2002 the elder Lane was incarcerated for one year for attempted murder. In an ordeal lasting nine hours, he physically and verbally assaulted a woman while three children were present. In addition, "he has arrests on a wide range of offenses including drug abuse and possession, violation of probation, public intoxication and disorderly conduct."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chardon_High_School_shooting#Reactions_of_friends

---

Quote:

...Like many of the students there, home life for T.J. was far from peaceful with his father, Thomas Lane Jr., boasting a history of domestic violence against women, according to court records. He had been arrested numerous times for incidents that showed increasing levels of ferocity, and may well have been abusive against his son as well.

On numerous occasions Lane was warned by law enforcement to stay away from T.J. and his mother Sarah A. Nolan, reported the Cleveland Plain Dealer and between 1995 and 1997 both parents charged the other with domestic violence against each other.

They subsequently split up after which Thomas Lane went on to be charged with assaulting a police officer, and then served prison time for attempting to suffocate his next wife after he held her head under running water, then bashed it into the wall so hard that it left a dent.

Estranged from his father and his half-twin sisters, T.J. lived with his grandparents and remained close to his aunts, who sat by his side in court on Tuesday for the juvenile detention hearing.

Two years ago, T.J. landed in custody from his own actions when he appeared at the Geauga County Juvenile court, but because he was only 15 at the time all records relating to his alleged offense are sealed.

http://radaronline.com/exclusives/2012/03/ohio-shooting-tj-lane-who-photos/

---

Quote:

Half-brother of accused Chardon High School gunman dies

By Brandon Blackwell, The Plain Dealer
on November 19, 2012 at 10:20 AM,

CHARDON, Ohio -- The half-brother of accused Chardon High School shooter T.J. Lane died Saturday, according to his family.

Police records show that 19-year-old Adam Nolan, of Chardon, had a history of drug abuse. The Geauga County Coroner's Office would not confirm if Nolan died from a drug overdose.

Nolan was arrested multiple times for disorderly conduct and other crimes connected to his drug abuse, according to records. He also overdosed on drugs several times.

Nolan grew up with Lane under the custody of their grandparents, Jack and Carole Nolan.

They told police they were trying to get Nolan drug abuse treatment. Records show Nolan was once ordered by a court to seek help.

---

. . .

JoieDeVivre said:

withoutawire said:

Quote:

How do you know he was born ill?


Funny how every serial killer you look into has the saem crap in childhood: abandonment, abuse, often sexual abuse (often by their mothers or other women) and then they turn out to be fruitcakes.

I don't think its a coincidence.  As a child you have very little opportunity to escape- its a crime to run away and a crime to disobey.  They're fucked.

---

Okay, maybe he wasn't born ill. Maybe he just became a sick piece of fucked up shit somewhere in his early teens. Just like a sick animal that is violent, you put it down humanely and forget all about it. You don't lock it up and try to teach it to be submissive. You don't teach it into being safe, because at heart there is something wrong with it.

---

We don't put down people just for being sick. It's sort of horrible to say that, IMO. A mental disorder is just like any other disorder of the body. We don't put people down when they're sick, we try to make them better. The brain is incredibly neuroplastic, especially at a young age, and just like the body, severe disorders can be reversed. In this case I don't even know if that's possible but I think it's imperative that we try to learn from the kid's disordered mental state rather than just killing him.

---

UnholyChild666 said:

It seemed he made a refrence with his hand to masurbating

---

JoieDeVivre said:

Pris when did I ever say the kid shouldn't be in prison? I've advocated a life sentence many times and have never once said I think he could be a productive member of society.

---

JoieDeVivre said:

I'm so torn about this. Obviously the kid should be punished but wishing violence on him and getting pleasure out of the idea is doing exactly what he does.

Clearly the kid is very mentally fucked up, if he had gotten help for his issues or had decent parents none of these kids would have been killed. Obviously he doesn't even have a grasp on cause and effect or have any sense of empathy.

Imagine yourself being in this kid's position, ACTUALLY in his mind not with your own morality. He's so disconnected from reality and being raped in prison isn't going to fix that or make reparations for anything that he has done. I think a better option would be intensive therapy (nothing more expensive than keeping him in prison ideally) so that he DOES feel some remorse for what he has done and so that the parents of the victims can get some closure.

We need to be preemptive as a society on this sort of thing. After the fact punishment doesn't do anything to prevent it from happening again unfortunately.

---

Quote:

I'm saying we can learn from this, we never learn from these mass murders we just have a court case and it's done with. We should honestly be having a national discussion about how to prevent this from happening again because, yes, his developmental environment is a large part of what caused his actions. Kids from happy homes who aren't picked on and neglected don't grow up to be mass murderers.

---

Quote:

That is not to say society or anyone who raised him is responsible for his behavior, but rather we are responsible for discouraging this from happening again and the death penalty is NOT the way to do that. People who commit mass murders generally don't give a shit if they live or die, and thus death is not really a punishment. In many cases it's what the criminal would prefer and what they likely would have done on their own if they had a chance.

---

Quote:

Again I'll stress that I'm not saying this kid could ever be a part of normal society, I'm just saying we could definitely learn a lot from studying his past and current physiology and the parents of the victims would probably get more closure if eventually this kid could look them in the eye and say, "I'm a piece of shit and I'm sorry for what happened," rather than flipping them off and relishing in their pain.

---

Quote:

BTW... these sorts of killers do come from happy homes as well, that's why
the nature vs. nurture debate has never been nor ever will be settled

---

Quote:

so you're still blaming society, nothing discourages someone from killing
like being killed, if he's dead then there's no chance that he'd escape, no
chance that a clerical error could set him free, no chance of him killing
an inmate that's only been sentenced to a few years for his drug crimes, a virtual innocent

---