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Re: I'm glad reagan dead [Re: zappaisgod]
    #17286794 -

""1.  Do you know who paid for the government?""

Yes.  The blood, sweat, and tears of human beings working together.

""2.  Should people just be allowed to sit on their big fat asses to receive food, health care, education and housing?""

No, people should be able to motivate eachother, and take care of eachother.  Most people want to work and they should be encouraged to do so.  The priority of our government shouldn't be ensuring the survival of corporations, it shouldn't be expanding empires, it should be helping people who need help.  If we spent the resources on caring for and educating our populace rather than ensuring certain people have access to cheap oil to sell things would be very different.

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Re: I'm glad reagan dead [Re: the spiral]
    #17286830 -

the spiral said:
zappaisgod said:
Not a fucking prayer.  I know both of those guys.  The Goldman guy put in way more hours and works with way more pressure and they are all, every fucking one of them, brilliant.  The Felafel guy?  Not so much.  Almost anybody could do his job.  Not even I think I could do the G-S guy's job and I am 100% certain the felafel guy couldn't.  Or you.


No, my job is far more demanding and requires far more hours than the stereotypical Goldman Sachs guy we're talking about.  While he's making trades at his desk I'm removing septic bowel from children's abdomens; it may not be as glamorous and I'm not in a corner office in a high-rise but I find my work tremendously rewarding.


I'm happy for you but you know nothing at all about what G-S guys do.  Nothing.
Quote:
What I am most curious about is the one question you didn't answer (though I edited, so you may have missed it) regarding whether you think you'd be at the same station in life if you'd been born next to a guinea-worm infested lake in south sudan? 


Of course not?  How is that applicable to any American?  Answer, it isn't. 
Quote:
I spent two years working with Medicins sans Frontiers (doctors without borders) in Africa, and I went to bed every night (covered in DEET and constantly checking my mosquito net for holes) CERTAIN and THANKFUL for how lucky I am to have been born to family in the US that could afford to send me to school so that I could do the things I do.  I've seen too many kids die from diseases that don't exist or have been eradicated in the states, and there's no doubt in my mind whatsoever that if I had been born in the Congo or in Sudan, if I was even alive, I would not be a doctor today.  If I was lucky I'd be the Falafal guy.


No shit.  Say, how do you feel about the millions and millions of Africans Rachel Carson killed?
Quote:


Slowly twisting guinea worms out of childrens' legs, having to ration your malaria medication among the kids because you don't have enough, it really gives you some perspective. 

You should try it some time.


You are a wonderful humanitarian.  Do you know who provided you with the wherewithall to do that?  People like me who made this country so rich that we can afford to export guys like you.  Thank me.


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Re: I'm glad reagan dead [Re: the spiral]
    #17286833 -

the spiral said:
zappa - when was the last time you gave enough of a fuck to find out how much college costs right now?  Saying that people who don't go to college because they can't afford tens of thousands of dollars per year in tuition are somehow lesser than those whose parents can afford that is not just classist, it's sickening.

Only willful blindness to the plight of people who aren't born with major opportunities can allow you to maintain a social philosophy that is as Randian as yours. 

Are the Romney/Ryan team burning the rest of Sheldon Adelson's cash by hacking shroomery accounts to post these sorts of arguments?  America is NOT a meritocracy anymore, and it actually never was.  Some people are born with advantages, some are born without, and scientific and stastitical analysis has shown over and over that these advantages are passed down through families and have absolutely nothing to do with any measure of intelligence or "ambition".

I'd bet a lot of money that if we did a study, we'd find that the average guy who sells falafals on a street corner in NYC spends more hours and effort working than the guys on the 30th floor at Goldman Sachs (who buy the schwarma and falafals), despite making 1/30th the income.  The banker gets to go home early and snort coke off a hooker's ass, while the street vendor is busy busting his OWN ass to make enough money to scrape  by - and if he's lucky, send his kid to college on an enormously generous football scholarship.  In that case, he'd be the LUCKY one. 

This is so twisted.  I guess I expected a more nuanced and enlightened worldview from people who visit a site like this, but hell, it's the internet, and entitled assholes will be entitled assholes. 

If you were born in the Congo with no access to clean running water, do you honestly think you'd be sitting at a computer typing on a mushroom website today?  I'm truly curious?!?




Very few people can do the Goldman Sachs guys job. Technical analysis of the market is no joke if it was as easy as selling falafals on the corner everyone would be doing it. Wages reflect the complexity of the work being done. If you penalize the people who pay the most in taxes give the most to charity and overall contribute the most financially to society you will soon have an inferior and failing society.


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Re: I'm glad reagan dead [Re: zappaisgod] * 1
    #17286854 -

zappaisgod said:
  People like me who made this country so rich that we can afford to export guys like you.  Thank me.


Actually the funding came from the French government, with some billionaire philanthropist money thrown in (though not very much - certainly not enough).  None of it came from you.  I agreed to work and use my training in exchange only for (shitty) housing and (shitty) food. 

I give credit where it is due, but you deserve no credit in this situation sir.

Edited by the spiral (11/26/12 09:54 PM)

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Re: I'm glad reagan dead [Re: the spiral]
    #17286877 -

This reminds me:

If you can afford it, please donate to Doctors Without Borders.  I feel tremendously honored to have been part of an organization where I spent every day literally saving and improving lives.  The funding is sorely needed, and it's hard to imagine how far you can stretch a dollar in sub-saharan Africa until you've actually tried it.  Every buck goes a really long way.

/soapbox

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Re: I'm glad reagan dead [Re: Gilgamesh18]
    #17286886 -

Gilgamesh18 said:
Very few people can do the Goldman Sachs guys job. Technical analysis of the market is no joke if it was as easy as selling falafals on the corner everyone would be doing it. Wages reflect the complexity of the work being done. If you penalize the people who pay the most in taxes give the most to charity and overall contribute the most financially to society you will soon have an inferior and failing society.


It is not a penalization.  It is a sign that they are living beyond their means.


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Re: I'm glad reagan dead [Re: moonrockmushy]
    #17286892 -

moonrockmushy said:
""1.  Do you know who paid for the government?""

Yes.  The blood, sweat, and tears of human beings working together.


That doesn't answer the question of who, does it?  There are hundreds of millions of human beings who did nothing at all.  Who paid for it?  Imma guess a Venn diagram of that will not include you in the circle of payers.  I'm ging to tell you who paid for.  The biggest taxpayers.  Half the country's tax filers pay no federal income.  They contributed nothing to the government construction projects.  Nothing.  The next quartile paid fuck all as well.  It is the top 25% who are paying for just about everything.
Quote:
""2.  Should people just be allowed to sit on their big fat asses to receive food, health care, education and housing?""

No, people should be able to motivate eachother, and take care of eachother.  Most people want to work and they should be encouraged to do so.  The priority of our government shouldn't be ensuring the survival of corporations, it shouldn't be expanding empires, it should be helping people who need help.  If we spent the resources on caring for and educating our populace rather than ensuring certain people have access to cheap oil to sell things would be very different.


That was a yes or no question, pal.

How do you intend to force people to motivate each other?  Do you live on a unicorn farm?  I have an idea about how to motivate people to take care of each other.  No benefits without work.  That'll go a long way to achieving unicorn happiness.

Corporations are owned by people and are a valuable way to encourage risk.  The same risk that enables you to post stupid shit on the internet.  If you don't like corporations do without their products.  Hypocrite. 

If someone needs help fine, help him.  But demand they work for it.  And if they need help because they refuse to work then they get nothing.  Not one thing.


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Re: I'm glad reagan dead [Re: moonrockmushy] * 1
    #17286900 -

moonrockmushy said:
Fiscal conservatism
Gilgamesh18 said:
Social conservatism is a terrible thing fiscal conservatism is were its at . Along with liberal social values :bigyesnod:


And what is fiscal conservatism?  Less taxes on the rich and less regulation.

Yeah, that is exactly what we need.  It will trickle down, right?


no, that's political conservatism.



fiscal conservatism is spending less.  taxing less.  period.t

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Re: I'm glad reagan dead [Re: the spiral]
    #17286909 -

the spiral said:
zappaisgod said:
  People like me who made this country so rich that we can afford to export guys like you.  Thank me.


Actually the funding came from the French government, with some billionaire philanthropist money thrown in (though not very much - certainly not enough).  None of it came from you.  I agreed to work and use my training in exchange only for (shitty) housing and (shitty) food. 

I give credit where it is due, but you deserve no credit in this situation sir.


Really?  People like me didn't pay for all of the government you took advantage of to grow to the point that you could be able to take advantage of some French funding?  How inane.


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Re: I'm glad reagan dead [Re: Gilgamesh18]
    #17286913 -

Gilgamesh18 said:
Very few people can do the Goldman Sachs guys job. Technical analysis of the market is no joke if it was as easy as selling falafals on the corner everyone would be doing it. Wages reflect the complexity of the work being done. If you penalize the people who pay the most in taxes give the most to charity and overall contribute the most financially to society you will soon have an inferior and failing society.


I agree with you, in part.  Enron, Lehman Brothers, all the credit default swap nonsense and the subprime mortgage scams - all those things take a particular type of person to think up.  That kind of person lacks the integrity of the guy from whom I buy falafal.

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Re: I'm glad reagan dead [Re: moonrockmushy]
    #17286926 -

moonrockmushy said:
Gilgamesh18 said:
Very few people can do the Goldman Sachs guys job. Technical analysis of the market is no joke if it was as easy as selling falafals on the corner everyone would be doing it. Wages reflect the complexity of the work being done. If you penalize the people who pay the most in taxes give the most to charity and overall contribute the most financially to society you will soon have an inferior and failing society.


It is not a penalization.  It is a sign that they are living beyond their means.




How are they living beyond their means when they seem to have quite enough means? 

By the way you might note that according to that graph everybody's means have gone up.  Nothing I got came at your expense.  Meanwhile, the tax burden has shrunk to a smaller and smaller proportion of the population.  In 1980 I was in the lower quartile and I still paid federal income tax.  Now?  They pay nothing.  Bums


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Re: I'm glad reagan dead [Re: moonrockmushy]
    #17286928 -

moonrockmushy said:
Gilgamesh18 said:
Very few people can do the Goldman Sachs guys job. Technical analysis of the market is no joke if it was as easy as selling falafals on the corner everyone would be doing it. Wages reflect the complexity of the work being done. If you penalize the people who pay the most in taxes give the most to charity and overall contribute the most financially to society you will soon have an inferior and failing society.


It is not a penalization.  It is a sign that they are living beyond their means.




The economy is not a zero sum game with one guy winning and the rest being screwed over. It is based upon mutually beneficial agreements being formed with the idea to make money and increase prosperity. Notice how even those at the lowest rung of the income bracket still saw gains. That is not insignificant many nations that have chained there free markets experience crushing amounts of poverty with no wage increases at all! The rich disproportionaly start and create new businesses and industries that employ a untold number of people. As for the rich living beyond there means if they are foolish enough to let greed consume them I have no sympathy for them. Having said that mainstreet america has plenty of blame on there shoulders believing that real estate prices would continue to rise forever is the height of stupidity.


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Re: I'm glad reagan dead [Re: zappaisgod]
    #17286943 -

Quote:
How do you intend to force people to motivate each other?  Do you live on a unicorn farm?  I have an idea about how to motivate people to take care of each other.  No benefits without work.


Yes.  I am all for it.  Give me work for benefits, but I'm not joining that fucking army, and I am a human being not a machine.

I don't care who paid for what.  As far as I'm concerned the world was already bought and paid for by assholes long ago, but here I am born into it.

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Re: I'm glad reagan dead [Re: the spiral]
    #17286949 -

the spiral said:
Gilgamesh18 said:
Very few people can do the Goldman Sachs guys job. Technical analysis of the market is no joke if it was as easy as selling falafals on the corner everyone would be doing it. Wages reflect the complexity of the work being done. If you penalize the people who pay the most in taxes give the most to charity and overall contribute the most financially to society you will soon have an inferior and failing society.


I agree with you, in part.  Enron, Lehman Brothers, all the credit default swap nonsense and the subprime mortgage scams - all those things take a particular type of person to think up.  That kind of person lacks the integrity of the guy from whom I buy falafal.


See there is this thing called ethics and if you have a healthy economy it will ethically make sense to not scam and defraud people. Ethically running a business is far more profitable in the long term than being a scam operation. You think BP made money on their major oil spill, BP lost nearly 50% of its value. Enron is no longer around so it would seem that the most successful companies are ones that actually have ethics!


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Re: I'm glad reagan dead [Re: zappaisgod] * 4
    #17287003 -

zappaisgod said:
the spiral said:
zappaisgod said:
  People like me who made this country so rich that we can afford to export guys like you.  Thank me.


Actually the funding came from the French government, with some billionaire philanthropist money thrown in (though not very much - certainly not enough).  None of it came from you.  I agreed to work and use my training in exchange only for (shitty) housing and (shitty) food. 

I give credit where it is due, but you deserve no credit in this situation sir.


Really?  People like me didn't pay for all of the government you took advantage of to grow to the point that you could be able to take advantage of some French funding?  How inane.


I am one of the very few , very lucky people who attended private school all the way through.  Though I'm flattered at your attempts to take credit for the work that I've done, the credit goes to my family - I'm one of a lucky few, and I'm quite aware of that fact.

I would argue that my tax dollars have probably done more to further your success and your life and your family - though I don't think it's exactly relevant to the conversation.  Considering that I never attended any public schooling, attended a private university, and then graduated from a private medical school, I'm rather certain that I've spent more dollars in taxes on your kids education than you have on mine.  The difference between us appears to be that I'm happy that my money has gone to such a good cause as helping to educate members of your family and assist them in thriving in society.  I deserve no credit for the things that they do with that education, but I'm glad to have helped with it.  Your attempt to deligitimize me, my education, and my work is as transparent as it is shallow. 

I think that this conversation has been exhausted of all possible productivity, so I bid you good night.


--------------------


"A celibate clergy is an especially good idea, because it tends to suppress any hereditary propensity toward fanaticism." - Carl Sagan

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Re: I'm glad reagan dead [Re: Gilgamesh18]
    #17287030 -

"And what is fiscal conservatism?"

Fiscal conservatism is the GREEDY GOVERNMENT learning to SPEND WITHIN THEIR MEANS so they don't have to LOOT PEOPLE WHO MAKE MONEY TO GIVE TO OTHER PEOPLE WHO ARE THEIR BUDDIES or vote for them...


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:smug: [/url][/url] 
:smirk: IF THE NEIGHBORS COMPLAIN BECAUSE THE MUSIC'S TOO LOUD, TURN IT UP SO YOU CAN'T HEAR THEM BITCH    :smirk:

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Re: I'm glad reagan dead [Re: starfire_xes]
    #17287070 -

And who is there to stop greedy corporations from controlling our government?  Just me and my buddies.  So yeah, we're fucked. :sadyes:

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Re: I'm glad reagan dead [Re: the spiral]
    #17290277 -




The difference between us appears to be that I'm happy that my money has gone to such a good cause as helping to educate members of your family and assist them in thriving in society.


Our society is thriving in a very unsustainable and destructive way. Many things must change if we wish to survive. Also the whole system is fucking unjust as shit. A massive amount of people hate their lives directly due to the industrial piece of shit society we live in. :nicesmile:

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Re: I'm glad reagan dead [Re: the spiral]
    #17290500 -

the spiral said:
zappaisgod said:
the spiral said:
zappaisgod said:
  People like me who made this country so rich that we can afford to export guys like you.  Thank me.


Actually the funding came from the French government, with some billionaire philanthropist money thrown in (though not very much - certainly not enough).  None of it came from you.  I agreed to work and use my training in exchange only for (shitty) housing and (shitty) food. 

I give credit where it is due, but you deserve no credit in this situation sir.


Really?  People like me didn't pay for all of the government you took advantage of to grow to the point that you could be able to take advantage of some French funding?  How inane.


I am one of the very few , very lucky people who attended private school all the way through.  Though I'm flattered at your attempts to take credit for the work that I've done, the credit goes to my family - I'm one of a lucky few, and I'm quite aware of that fact.

I would argue that my tax dollars have probably done more to further your success and your life and your family - though I don't think it's exactly relevant to the conversation.  Considering that I never attended any public schooling, attended a private university, and then graduated from a private medical school, I'm rather certain that I've spent more dollars in taxes on your kids education than you have on mine.  The difference between us appears to be that I'm happy that my money has gone to such a good cause as helping to educate members of your family and assist them in thriving in society.  I deserve no credit for the things that they do with that education, but I'm glad to have helped with it.  Your attempt to deligitimize me, my education, and my work is as transparent as it is shallow.


In what way is education the only government benefit you received?  By the way your private educational institutions also received government money and my taxes more than paid for my kids education.

What tax dollars have you paid?  You work for peanuts pulling guinea worms in Africa.  I've already paid millions of dollars in taxes over the years.  If you want to pay more in taxes knock yourself out but I don't have a trust fund.  It's pretty easy to be charitable with other people's money and I wish you would stop trying to take yet more of mine.
Quote:
I think that this conversation has been exhausted of all possible productivity, so I bid you good night.


Good afternoon to you.


--------------------

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Re: I'm glad reagan dead [Re: moonrockmushy]
    #17290520 -

moonrockmushy said:
Quote:
How do you intend to force people to motivate each other?  Do you live on a unicorn farm?  I have an idea about how to motivate people to take care of each other.  No benefits without work.


Yes.  I am all for it.  Give me work for benefits, but I'm not joining that fucking army, and I am a human being not a machine.

I don't care who paid for what.  As far as I'm concerned the world was already bought and paid for by assholes long ago, but here I am born into it.


Of course you don't care who paid for what.  It isn't you.

The only people talking about reinstating the draft are leftists.  Do you know what group is most opposed to making people work for their benefit checks?  Government employee unions.


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