Home | Community | Message Board


Mushrooms.com
Please support our sponsors.

Community >> The Pub

Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Jump to first unread post. Pages: 1
InvisibleSilversoul
Rhizome
Male User Gallery

Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
Social conservatism and stupidity
    #4548911 - 08/17/05 11:06 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

You know, I really try to keep an open mind and understand the merit in others' viewpoints, but I've become more and more convinced that social conservatism is rooted in the most primitive parts of the brain. I'm using the word "social" here to differentiate from fiscal conservatives, who are often quite bright(and rich). It seems like social conservatism is based largely on an irrational fear of "the other," whether that "other" is gays, immigrants, minorities, drug users, or simply people who think differently than they do. This suspicion of diversity leads them to be more accepting of intrusions of freedom(such as the Patriot Act) as long as the target is someone different than them. Of course, I've met some idiotic liberals too(mostly falling under the "conspiracy theorist" category), but from what I've observed, stupidity seems to be more prevalent on the right.


--------------------


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineGratefulDead
Tripper

Registered: 08/14/05
Posts: 15
Loc: Kamloops, British Columbi...
Last seen: 11 years, 6 months
Re: Social conservatism and stupidity [Re: Silversoul]
    #4549323 - 08/18/05 12:25 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Woah man that's really deep. I had to read that like 4 times to let it all sink in. As for what you said i agree with you. Some people just wont listen to other people's thoughts and opinions no matter what facts or points are brought up. Thanks for your insight.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineFL_accciD
Jack's Paranoia
Male

Registered: 11/04/04
Posts: 1,665
Loc: midwest
Last seen: 8 years, 10 months
Re: Social conservatism and stupidity [Re: GratefulDead]
    #4549336 - 08/18/05 12:27 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

ignorance truly is bliss in their case...they fear and or resent these outsiders because they have been raised to...


--------------------
- - - T H E E N D - - -



Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineRedstorm
Prince of Bugs
Male

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 44,174
Last seen: 9 months, 1 day
Re: Social conservatism and stupidity [Re: Silversoul]
    #4549370 - 08/18/05 12:33 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

The problem with social conservatism is that it is often rooted in amoral standard. Since morality is always subjective, this type of belief is seen as backwards. Plus, times change, and conservatives want to hold society back when it is ready to move forward.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleRandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Re: Social conservatism and stupidity [Re: Silversoul]
    #4549442 - 08/18/05 12:46 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Paradigm said:
You know, I really try to keep an open mind and understand the merit in others' viewpoints, but I've become more and more convinced that social conservatism is rooted in the most primitive parts of the brain. I'm using the word "social" here to differentiate from fiscal conservatives, who are often quite bright(and rich). It seems like social conservatism is based largely on an irrational fear of "the other," whether that "other" is gays, immigrants, minorities, drug users, or simply people who think differently than they do. This suspicion of diversity leads them to be more accepting of intrusions of freedom(such as the Patriot Act) as long as the target is someone different than them. Of course, I've met some idiotic liberals too(mostly falling under the "conspiracy theorist" category), but from what I've observed, stupidity seems to be more prevalent on the right.




Why is this in the Pub? Why not put it into the Politics forum?

I've seen a lot of stupidity in my day and I have seen it on both the Left and the Right. The stupid Righties are very afraid of diversity and questioning their belief systems. The stupid Lefties seem obsessed with rebellion for rebellion's sake. Both sides want to force their will upon the general populace.

We agree and disagree on some things that I want to point out:

I think that we should not completely ignore our primitive impulses. They are a big part of what makes us human. Fear of outsiders, tribalism, violence, and habits have actually served certain members of our species well at times. In my opinion we must recognize our useful primitive instincts, but we must be prepared to function in the modern civilized world.

I think that I am above categorization on the ideological spectrum. I try to be free of religious, social, or philosophical biases and I attempt to use my own brain. However, I find myself agreeing with the basics of the Right more than I agree with the basics of the Left (but not always), BUT (and that is a big but) I value the natural dissent and progressiveness that the Left proposes as long as it is informed, rational, and intelligent.

I think that a responsible nationalism, an ability for self-defense, stability, a respect for individualism, and a respect for tradition are all valuable things which tie together and strengthen a society. These things could all be considered "Right-ish". I do have great disdain for racial, nationalist, or religious zealots on the Right though.

I welcome the Left's questioning and sane viewpoints. Great things have arisen because of the progressives (women's suffrage, an end to slavery in America, etc...), but I despise the stupid and extremist Leftists with a passion. These people are tumors upon society. They have a rigid viewpoint of the world, they are often pretentious, and they seem to crave destruction of everything that society has built.

Currently, I am more mad at the Rightists in this country than the Leftists though. I think that the Righties in power in America are causing more damage than the American Left is currently causing. But, I tend to dislike both "wings".


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleSilversoul
Rhizome
Male User Gallery

Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
Re: Social conservatism and stupidity [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #4549533 - 08/18/05 01:07 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

RandalFlagg said:
Why is this in the Pub? Why not put it into the Politics forum?



I considered it, but I didn't feel like I should put a thread there that's basically calling a certain group of people stupid. I felt like it wouldn't really contribute much to discourse over there.

Quote:

I've seen a lot of stupidity in my day and I have seen it on both the Left and the Right. The stupid Righties are very afraid of diversity and questioning their belief systems. The stupid Lefties seem obsessed with rebellion for rebellion's sake. Both sides want to force their will upon the general populace.



I know what you mean by rebellion for rebellion's sake, but I see relatively little of that compared to the close-mindedness of social conservatives.

Quote:

I think that we should not completely ignore our primitive impulses. They are a big part of what makes us human. Fear of outsiders, tribalism, violence, and habits have actually served certain members of our species well at times. In my opinion we must recognize our useful primitive instincts, but we must be prepared to function in the modern civilized world.



I think tribalism served us well when we lived in tribes, but now we live in civilization, and it's time to put such primitive ideas behind us. I can't see how it does us any good in modern society.

Quote:

I think that I am above categorization on the ideological spectrum. I try to be free of religious, social, or philosophical biases and I attempt to use my own brain. However, I find myself agreeing with the basics of the Right more than I agree with the basics of the Left (but not always), BUT (and that is a big but) I value the natural dissent and progressiveness that the Left proposes as long as it is informed, rational, and intelligent.



As you well know, I am not entirely hostile to conservatism in general, and in fact am quite conservative on certain issues. What I'm mainly discussing here is the "family values" crowd that seems to count intolerance and ignorance as part of those values.

Quote:

I think that a responsible nationalism, an ability for self-defense, stability, a respect for individualism, and a respect for tradition are all valuable things which tie together and strengthen a society. These things could all be considered "Right-ish". I do have great disdain for racial, nationalist, or religious zealots on the Right though.



I'm not quite sure what you mean by "responsible nationalism," but I do agree that self-defense, stability, and individualism are good things. As far as tradition goes, I think it's silly to revere tradition for its own sake. Traditions should be analyzed for their usefulness and purpose, and either kept or dicarded accordingly.

Quote:

I welcome the Left's questioning and sane viewpoints. Great things have arisen because of the progressives (women's suffrage, an end to slavery in America, etc...), but I despise the stupid and extremist Leftists with a passion. These people are tumors upon society. They have a rigid viewpoint of the world, they are often pretentious, and they seem to crave destruction of everything that society has built.



I have met a few such leftists at my college, but fortunately they're largely irrelevant in politics, unlike social conservatives.

Quote:

Currently, I am more mad at the Rightists in this country than the Leftists though. I think that the Righties in power in America are causing more damage than the American Left is currently causing. But, I tend to dislike both "wings".



Yes, I definitely have my beef with both sides. I actually tend to dislike European leftists more so than American ones, as they tend to be as rigid and close-minded in their thinking as American conservatives are. Since Europe itself is more left-wing, it's almost as if European left-wingers are the conservatives of their societies.


--------------------


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineFL_accciD
Jack's Paranoia
Male

Registered: 11/04/04
Posts: 1,665
Loc: midwest
Last seen: 8 years, 10 months
Re: Social conservatism and stupidity [Re: Silversoul]
    #4549546 - 08/18/05 01:13 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

at this point i think the difference between the right and the left can be boiled down to a few issues...and that is the problem...pro life right wing, pro choice left wing, gun control, and well at this point the war...i realize this is over generalizing, but not really that much anymore. drop these issues and party lines blur significantly


--------------------
- - - T H E E N D - - -



Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleRavus
Not an EggshellWalker
 User Gallery

Registered: 07/18/03
Posts: 7,991
Loc: Cave of the Patriarchs
Re: Social conservatism and stupidity [Re: Redstorm]
    #4549552 - 08/18/05 01:16 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Plus, times change, and conservatives want to hold society back when it is ready to move forward.




That's a good way of putting it.


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleRandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Re: Social conservatism and stupidity [Re: Silversoul]
    #4549603 - 08/18/05 01:29 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Paradigm said:
I know what you mean by rebellion for rebellion's sake, but I see relatively little of that compared to the close-mindedness of social conservatives.





Well, it is hard to quantify how much influence the stupid conservatives have and how much the stupid liberals have. The liberals seem to control a lot of the media and educational institutions, but the conservatives dominate in other areas. I see ample amounts of bullshit from both sides in my daily life though.

Quote:

Paradigm said:
I think tribalism served us well when we lived in tribes, but now we live in civilization, and it's time to put such primitive ideas behind us. I can't see how it does us any good in modern society.





I have a fondness for Man's more virile and visceral characteristics. They may not always serve a useful purpose in modern society, but sometimes they do. I also view them as an indelible part of us that should not be ignored or completely steamrolled by modern social concerns.


Quote:

Paradigm said:
As you well know, I am not entirely hostile to conservatism in general, and in fact am quite conservative on certain issues. What I'm mainly discussing here is the "family values" crowd that seems to count intolerance and ignorance as part of those values.





Yeah, the Righties (and the Lefties) in the "culture war" get tiresome. I wish both sides would shut up.


Quote:

Paradigm said:
I'm not quite sure what you mean by "responsible nationalism,"





Responsible nationalism is a general feeling of comradeship and concern toward your fellow citizens. I think that this concern for your countrymen should superscede concern for other peoples and cultures. But, excessive nationalism can lead to imperialism, wars, and xenophobia...which are all bad.


Quote:

Paradigm said:
As far as tradition goes, I think it's silly to revere tradition for its own sake. Traditions should be analyzed for their usefulness and purpose, and either kept or dicarded accordingly.





I agree. But, I still value the idea of traditional things as being the glue which holds a culture together. This can be very healthy for a society.



Quote:

Randalflagg said:
but I despise the stupid and extremist Leftists with a passion.





Quote:

Paradigm said:
I have met a few such leftists at my college, but fortunately they're largely irrelevant in politics, unlike social conservatives.





Extreme Leftists have made some unsightly political marks upon our country (affirmative action, income redistribution, etc...). But, I will agree with you when you say that social conservatives seem to "hold the reigns" more than liberals in America.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleRandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Re: Social conservatism and stupidity [Re: FL_accciD]
    #4549626 - 08/18/05 01:33 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

FL_accciD said:
at this point i think the difference between the right and the left can be boiled down to a few issues...and that is the problem...pro life right wing, pro choice left wing, gun control, and well at this point the war...

drop these issues and party lines blur significantly




No, they don't. The basic ideological views of the Right and Left are often exactly opposite on most issues. It goes a lot deeper than abortion and gun control. In my opinion, there are underlying philosophical attitudes in both "wings" which transcend these modern-day issues.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineFL_accciD
Jack's Paranoia
Male

Registered: 11/04/04
Posts: 1,665
Loc: midwest
Last seen: 8 years, 10 months
Re: Social conservatism and stupidity [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #4549654 - 08/18/05 01:41 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

their philisophical attitudes? i beleive this in some cases but not many...paul wellstone for example, but i dont have a lot of faith that democrats and republicans have deeper philosophies than to grab power and hold on to it...the republican party is just a little more...to put is bluntly, ballsy


--------------------
- - - T H E E N D - - -



Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleKingOftheThing
the cool fool
 User Gallery

Registered: 11/17/02
Posts: 27,389
Loc: USA
Re: Social conservatism and stupidity [Re: Silversoul]
    #4549867 - 08/18/05 02:39 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

yeah they're really awful


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleSilversoul
Rhizome
Male User Gallery

Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
Re: Social conservatism and stupidity [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #4550737 - 08/18/05 09:38 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Extreme Leftists have made some unsightly political marks upon our country (affirmative action, income redistribution, etc...).



I see these things as misplaced idealism. Social conservatism has more to do with barbarism than with idealism.


--------------------


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineBanJankri
FreefallerUpwards

Registered: 07/27/04
Posts: 1,392
Last seen: 9 years, 1 month
Re: Social conservatism and stupidity [Re: Silversoul]
    #4550829 - 08/18/05 10:30 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

I think much of the political chaos going on right now in the world is caused mainly by of the attitudes and actions of neo conservatives in the U.S. including a lot of the people who surround Bush.


--------------------
Just let everything flow, just flow right to the center of everything. You gotta turn off your mind and relax, and then just float downstream...


Edited by BanJankri (08/18/05 10:30 AM)


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisiblemantis
Male User Gallery

Registered: 01/26/03
Posts: 5,235
Loc: Bunker Alpha, GMC Flag
Re: Social conservatism and stupidity [Re: Silversoul]
    #4550986 - 08/18/05 11:38 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

I actually agree with Paradigm about something. :grin:

My liberal bias is showing :shrug:


--------------------


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleRandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Re: Social conservatism and stupidity [Re: Silversoul]
    #4551062 - 08/18/05 12:04 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Randalflagg said:
Extreme Leftists have made some unsightly political marks upon our country (affirmative action, income redistribution, etc...).




Quote:

Paradigm said:
I see these things as misplaced idealism. Social conservatism has more to do with barbarism than with idealism.




Not necessarily. Mainstream social conservatism seems to have an underlying current of desire for tradition and stability. I don't view these things as being barbaric. However, let me add that an ample amount of conservatives do exhibit tendencies which I don't agree with (close-mindedness, excessive tribalism, etc..).

And when it comes to the realm of politics, I view barbarism and idealism in the same light. They are both mindsets held by people who want to shape the world (often by force) to be a certain way. And, they often overlap (as in Soviet Russia for example).


Edited by RandalFlagg (08/18/05 12:08 PM)


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleKingOftheThing
the cool fool
 User Gallery

Registered: 11/17/02
Posts: 27,389
Loc: USA
Re: Social conservatism and stupidity [Re: BanJankri]
    #4551603 - 08/18/05 02:46 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

conservatives are causing all the problems in this world. we have american conservatives taking away rights, sending us into dumb wars. you have islamic conservatives suicide bombing, spewing jihad rhetoric. then you have zionist jew conservatives who are antagonizing the muslims.

sure you have communist N korea causing trouble , some people think communism is the left...but its not, at least socially


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineSerioOria
?!one#!>?

Registered: 07/23/05
Posts: 566
Loc: upstate, SC
Last seen: 11 years, 8 months
Re: Social conservatism and stupidity [Re: Silversoul]
    #4551652 - 08/18/05 03:01 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

i'd like to point out that too far to either side is bad

left=idotic crybabies/communists
right=moronic rednecks/fascists

its best if one just sits in the middle and keeps an open mind

libertenarian=logical, middle party


--------------------
Live every day like it is your first
or
Live every day like it is your last
My ArT!!


Edited by SerioOria (08/18/05 03:02 PM)


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineProsgeopax
Jaded, yethopeful?

Registered: 01/28/05
Posts: 1,258
Loc: Appearing at a mall near ...
Last seen: 11 years, 5 months
Re: Social conservatism and stupidity [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #4551903 - 08/18/05 04:23 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

RandalFlagg said:
Responsible nationalism is a general feeling of comradeship and concern toward your fellow citizens. I think that this concern for your countrymen should superscede concern for other peoples and cultures. But, excessive nationalism can lead to imperialism, wars, and xenophobia...which are all bad.



In my mind what you are talking about is closer to patriotism vs. nationalism. At least that's how I would differentiate between what you term nationalism and excessive nationalism. Patriotism also includes a fondness for the traditions of one's homeland and one's people, and the land that you call home.


--------------------
Money doesn't grow on trees, but deficits do grow under Bushes.

You can accept, reject, or examine and test any new idea that comes to you. The wise man chooses the third way.
- Tom Willhite

Disclaimer: I reserve the right to change my opinions should I become aware of additional facts, the falsification of information or different perspectives. Articles written by others which I post may not necessarily reflect my opinions in part or in whole, my opinions may be in direct opposition, the topic may be one on which I have yet to formulate an opinion or have doubts about, an article may be posted solely with the intent to stimulate discussion or contemplation.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisiblevampirism
Stranger
Male User Gallery

Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 8,120
Re: Social conservatism and stupidity [Re: Silversoul]
    #4551961 - 08/18/05 04:33 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

i kind of liked your initial post, but then your next post didn't sit well with me.

i'll leave it at one point:

Quote:


As far as tradition goes, I think it's silly to revere tradition for its own sake. Traditions should be analyzed for their usefulness and purpose, and either kept or dicarded accordingly.





Silly?
Tell me, who is the head master who analyzes usefulness and purpose in tradition, then discards traditions at will? When tradition turns out to be stupid from a people's perspective, it is not practiced anymore, period. Up until the point that they perceive it as stupid, they see a purpose/usefulness to it.

Aside from which, do you have a concrete argument against tradition for tradition's sake? Tradition isn't some far away dogmatic monster lurking in the closet, and I think you'd be surprised that all surviving tradition serves purpose; even when it is not the most efficient under a strict capitalistic perspective.

I've just noticed that when people call something silly, they have no actual argument and are perpetuating a cycle of negative discourse ( i've been guilty of this in the past :< ). If no support exists for an argument, don't mention it. That's belief.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Jump to top. Pages: 1

Community >> The Pub

Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Mad, bad, sick or stupid? enotake2 399 2 12/05/03 10:25 PM
by Snape
* Piercings and Tattoos Seem so Stupid to Me
( 1 2 3 all )
TheFakeSunRa 3,790 55 03/20/08 02:31 PM
by niteowl
* stupid american custom KingOftheThing 818 18 01/15/06 03:18 PM
by Boom
* Are Americans stupid?
( 1 2 3 all )
abramelin 4,033 53 03/11/07 11:29 AM
by Prisoner#1
* Socialism, the Epic Failure
( 1 2 3 4 all )
DragonChaser 2,928 62 04/05/09 03:14 AM
by flexintexan
* Social Awkwardness
( 1 2 all )
skatealex2 2,104 25 01/06/09 10:30 PM
by deranger
* DEBATE Fish or Chicken? What animal is stupider? kidaihuan 1,663 6 11/22/07 12:57 AM
by Xeluc

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Entire Staff
1,288 topic views. 15 members, 123 guests and 61 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Toggle Favorite | Print Topic | Stats ]
Search this thread:
High Mountain Compost
Please support our sponsors.

Copyright 1997-2017 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.045 seconds spending 0.006 seconds on 18 queries.