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Re: I'm glad reagan dead [Re: moonrockmushy]
    #17285694 -

Why can't everyone be taxed with a fixed percentage? Would you consider this "fair"?

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Re: I'm glad reagan dead [Re: the spiral]
    #17285732 -

the spiral said:
Ron Jr. wrote a book ("My Father at 100", I think?)that  detailed his suspicions that his father was suffering from Alzheimer's while still in office.  He was forgetting the names of staffers he had known for over a decade and other things like that. 

A number of other people from that administration have also come forward with stories that they claim only began to make sense once they found out, after he left office, that he had Alzheimer's disease.

I don't hate the man, though I don't particularly like him either; if you read much about the Cold War beyond the soundbites and the "Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" video clips, it's a FAR more troubling picture than most people realize. 

Plus he raised taxes multiple (7?) times, and exploded our military budget, and had this strange obsession with Panama ...

anyway...

Read this book if you want to learn about the "evolution" of the US military in the last half-century


i read killing hope, by william blum years ago when it came out. i think it's the best complete primary source for researching cold war activities. he was not a good man, but he may have been in a less greedy world. i believe he was a hollywood narc too, busting other actors for smoking reefer.

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Re: I'm glad reagan dead [Re: SoreSpore]
    #17285762 -

SoreSpore said:
Why can't everyone be taxed with a fixed percentage? Would you consider this "fair"?


I would be in favor of a flat tax.


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Re: I'm glad reagan dead [Re: Gilgamesh18]
    #17285793 -

As long as EVERY worker has paid a net tax at the end of the year.

A system like we have now where an entire class of moochers exist, is not the way.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: I'm glad reagan dead [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #17285808 -

luvdemshrooms said:
As long as EVERY worker has paid a net tax at the end of the year.

A system like we have now where an entire class of moochers exist, is not the way.


Yea I think that would be fine at least everyone pays in to the system.


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Re: I'm glad reagan dead [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #17285819 -

luvdemshrooms said:
I'm not looking for a scapegoat.

Is veiled insults and pokes the best you can do?


I know I can't change your mind.  I'm more interested in influencing the yoof who read these boards.  Yes that is the best I can do.

Sure that could work sorespore, but all citizens can and should have food, education, health care, and housing.  Some things need to change from the ground up, and government protections should be aimed at individuals not corporations.  People should be held accountable for what they do, and sending production overseas to take advantage of exploitative labor is in conflict with what I think America now stands for.  That should be taken care of and that will totally change the way people do business.

Less ipods?  Probably.  Maybe people will have to use the same ipod three or four years in a row :shocked: Wouldn't that suck?

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Re: I'm glad reagan dead [Re: moonrockmushy]
    #17286219 -

moonrockmushy said:
Shifting more burden onto the middle class.

Why should richer people, who have been allowed to prosper largely because of government and societal protections, not have to give back more?


"Allowed to prosper"?  Why how benevolent of the losers who sat around and shat out babies ad infinitum and smoked crack and skipped school and work to have so graciously allowed the few with brains and talent and common sense to succeed.  Why, they couldn't have done it without them.

Do you know who paid for the government that "allowed" the rich to get rich?  The rich.  The government doesn't pay for anything.  It just forces an ever shrinking proportion of the population to pay for everything.  The bums don't pay for anything.  They are tax consumers.  There are fewer and fewer tax payers.  The ugly fact is that very very few people have the talent, brains and work ethic to get rich and that they do it in spite of a plethora of government obstacles.  Half of the population is below average in intelligence.  The same is true of ambition.


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Re: I'm glad reagan dead [Re: moonrockmushy]
    #17286224 -

I am loving this discussin.  I can't believe there are at least two fellow fiscal conservatives on this board and who- equipped with factual arguments -have held their own against the proponents of the perpetual welfare state.  Luvdemshrooms... Gilgamesh... I just loved reading your clear and lucid arguments.  K++


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There is no truer calling for mankind than that of true conservatism.

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Re: I'm glad reagan dead [Re: moonrockmushy]
    #17286296 -

moonrockmushy said:
luvdemshrooms said:
I'm not looking for a scapegoat.

Is veiled insults and pokes the best you can do?


I know I can't change your mind.  I'm more interested in influencing the yoof who read these boards.  Yes that is the best I can do.

Sure that could work sorespore, but all citizens can and should have food, education, health care, and housing.  Some things need to change from the ground up, and government protections should be aimed at individuals not corporations.  People should be held accountable for what they do, and sending production overseas to take advantage of exploitative labor is in conflict with what I think America now stands for.  That should be taken care of and that will totally change the way people do business.


And should not all citizens be required to perform useful work to receive those benefits or should they just be allowed to sit on their great giant asses and do nothing but breed and get high?
Quote:
Less ipods?  Probably.  Maybe people will have to use the same ipod three or four years in a row :shocked: Wouldn't that suck?


It is none of your or my business how many iPods anybody chooses to buy with the money they earn.


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Re: I'm glad reagan dead [Re: zappaisgod]
    #17286311 -

zappaisgod said:
moonrockmushy said:
Shifting more burden onto the middle class.

Why should richer people, who have been allowed to prosper largely because of government and societal protections, not have to give back more?


"Allowed to prosper"?  Why how benevolent of the losers who sat around and shat out babies ad infinitum and smoked crack and skipped school and work to have so graciously allowed the few with brains and talent and common sense to succeed.  Why, they couldn't have done it without them.

Do you know who paid for the government that "allowed" the rich to get rich?  The rich.  The government doesn't pay for anything.  It just forces an ever shrinking proportion of the population to pay for everything.  The bums don't pay for anything.  They are tax consumers.  There are fewer and fewer tax payers.  The ugly fact is that very very few people have the talent, brains and work ethic to get rich and that they do it in spite of a plethora of government obstacles.  Half of the population is below average in intelligence.  The same is true of ambition.


Working men and women built this country.  Your realize how very similar to Hitler you sound right now?  Not even poking fun.

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Re: I'm glad reagan dead [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #17286318 -

luvdemshrooms said:
As long as EVERY worker has paid a net tax at the end of the year.

A system like we have now where an entire class of moochers exist, is not the way.


"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the majority discovers it can vote itself largess out of the public treasury. After that, the majority always votes for the candidate promising the most benefits with the result the democracy collapses because of the loose fiscal policy ensuing, always to be followed by a dictatorship, then a monarchy."


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Re: I'm glad reagan dead [Re: moonrockmushy]
    #17286355 -

moonrockmushy said:
zappaisgod said:
moonrockmushy said:
Shifting more burden onto the middle class.

Why should richer people, who have been allowed to prosper largely because of government and societal protections, not have to give back more?


"Allowed to prosper"?  Why how benevolent of the losers who sat around and shat out babies ad infinitum and smoked crack and skipped school and work to have so graciously allowed the few with brains and talent and common sense to succeed.  Why, they couldn't have done it without them.

Do you know who paid for the government that "allowed" the rich to get rich?  The rich.  The government doesn't pay for anything.  It just forces an ever shrinking proportion of the population to pay for everything.  The bums don't pay for anything.  They are tax consumers.  There are fewer and fewer tax payers.  The ugly fact is that very very few people have the talent, brains and work ethic to get rich and that they do it in spite of a plethora of government obstacles.  Half of the population is below average in intelligence.  The same is true of ambition.


Working men and women built this country.  Your realize how very similar to Hitler you sound right now?  Not even poking fun.


I am the working man.  There are very few of us left.  I don't see people who want to work, I see people who want to get paid.  Everything about unionism is about getting more for less.  I reject that.  I contributed more to get more.  My brains, talent and work ethic have made me successful.  You have not answered my questions.  I will repeat them.

1.  Do you know who paid for the government?

2.  Should people just be allowed to sit on their big fat asses to receive food, health care, education and housing?


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Re: I'm glad reagan dead [Re: zappaisgod]
    #17286399 -

And you think that the people have changed so much since the 50s or whenever conservatives fantasize about.  The fact is that FDR created real protections for organized labor, and when people were given a chance to organize they did great things together.  There were still rich and poor, but we started to close the gap.

Then comes this free trade (legal exploitation of foreign nationals), attacks on organized labor from government shills and their organized crime associates.  We are no longer the beacon on the hill, now we are the wild west and it is every man for himself or some shit like that.

Blaming the poor and uneducated is pathetic.  Your definition of success and the things you are proud of are pathetic.  You should be ashamed of yourself.

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Re: I'm glad reagan dead [Re: moonrockmushy]
    #17286504 -

moonrockmushy said:
And you think that the people have changed so much since the 50s or whenever conservatives fantasize about.  The fact is that FDR created real protections for organized labor, and when people were given a chance to organize they did great things together.  There were still rich and poor, but we started to close the gap.


I'm 55 years old, I'm not fantasizing about anything regarding the fifties.  I have owned a small construction company for decades.  Out of dozens and dozens of employees over the years not one was anywhere near my skill level and only one was remotely interested in doing anything other than working for the weekend.  He has his own company now which he built with the training I provided.  I'm proud of him.  There are almost no native English speaking construction company owners younger than my generation.  I started my own company almost 30 years ago.  There were lots of companies owned by guys around 30 years old then.  Now?  Only foreign born.

Do you know why unions have been dying since the sixties?  Because they became too powerful and killed the hosts.  See Hostess for a wonderfully recent example.
Quote:


Then comes this free trade (legal exploitation of foreign nationals), attacks on organized labor from government shills and their organized crime associates.  We are no longer the beacon on the hill, now we are the wild west and it is every man for himself or some shit like that.


We have an ever increasing provision of benefits for bums and you think that is the wild west?
Quote:
Blaming the poor and uneducated is pathetic.  Your definition of success and the things you are proud of are pathetic.  You should be ashamed of yourself.


Everybody in this country is entitled to a free education up through the 12th grade.  Often beyond.  It is up to the individual to take advantage.  Further, the quality of education they have received since I got out has deteriorated to an alarming degree due to unions and general liberal nonsense.  Most of the people who are poor are poor because of choices they made.  They get high all the time, have babies they can't take care of, don't show up for work when they get a job, and are generally stupid.  Even mediocrities with a work ethic can do well.  Not get rich but support themselves if they try.  The chronically poor are mostly not trying.


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Re: I'm glad reagan dead [Re: zappaisgod] * 2
    #17286558 -

zappa - when was the last time you gave enough of a fuck to find out how much college costs right now?  Saying that people who don't go to college because they can't afford tens of thousands of dollars per year in tuition are somehow lesser than those whose parents can afford that is not just classist, it's sickening.

Only willful blindness to the plight of people who aren't born with major opportunities can allow you to maintain a social philosophy that is as Randian as yours. 

Are the Romney/Ryan team burning the rest of Sheldon Adelson's cash by hacking shroomery accounts to post these sorts of arguments?  America is NOT a meritocracy anymore, and it actually never was.  Some people are born with advantages, some are born without, and scientific and stastitical analysis has shown over and over that these advantages are passed down through families and have absolutely nothing to do with any measure of intelligence or "ambition".

I'd bet a lot of money that if we did a study, we'd find that the average guy who sells falafals on a street corner in NYC spends more hours and effort working than the guys on the 30th floor at Goldman Sachs (who buy the schwarma and falafals), despite making 1/30th the income.  The banker gets to go home early and snort coke off a hooker's ass, while the street vendor is busy busting his OWN ass to make enough money to scrape  by - and if he's lucky, send his kid to college on an enormously generous football scholarship.  In that case, he'd be the LUCKY one. 

This is so twisted.  I guess I expected a more nuanced and enlightened worldview from people who visit a site like this, but hell, it's the internet, and entitled assholes will be entitled assholes. 

If you were born in the Congo with no access to clean running water, do you honestly think you'd be sitting at a computer typing on a mushroom website today?  I'm truly curious?!?


Edited by the spiral (11/26/12 09:03 PM)

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Re: I'm glad reagan dead [Re: zappaisgod]
    #17286581 -

What are we supposed to work harder to do?  I think the mutual consensus it that if you see your mission in life is to stockpile wealth in order to have power over others, you deserve to be taxed more.

I agree the public education system and unions are fucked.  They have been sabotaged by opportunists who see these things as a business, not a public service.  The complacency is a real problem, and much of this stems from capitalism and technology changing our world so fast that the greater population cannot respond.  It calls for stong leaders, but unfortunately anyone resembling a stong leader is shot down, literally or otherwise.

Edited by moonrockmushy (11/26/12 08:53 PM)

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Re: I'm glad reagan dead [Re: the spiral]
    #17286700 -

the spiral said:
zappa - when was the last time you gave enough of a fuck to find out how much college costs right now?  Saying that people who don't go to college because they can't afford tens of thousands of dollars per year in tuition are somehow lesser than those whose parents can afford that is not just classist, it's sickening.


I know exactly how much they cost.  SUNY Stony Brook.  Tuition plus fees, $7,560 for a year.  SUNY Stony Brook.  No scholarship or grants or means tested aid.  That's what it costs.  That's where my daughter went.  Top notch school.  It also didn't cost me anything at all, not even for room and board.  She got a 100% free merit ride.  Do you see that sucky word there?  Merit.  She was eligible for zero means tested aid.  Of course if you insisit on attending Oberlin to study gender grievances that will cost you much more.  Pardon me if I don't feel like I should pay for that for you.
Quote:
Only willful blindness to the plight of people who aren't born with major opportunities can allow you to maintain a social philosophy that is as Randian as yours.
 

Are the Romney/Ryan team burning the rest of Sheldon Adelson's cash by hacking shroomery accounts to post these sorts of arguments?  America is NOT a meritocracy anymore, and it actually never was.  Some people are born with advantages, some are born without, and scientific and stastitical analysis has shown over and over that these advantages are passed down through families and have absolutely nothing to do with any measure of intelligence or "ambition" that has been developed up to this moment.


ORLY?  You don't think science has shown that intelligence is largely genetically based?  Or that some families teach their children a work ethic while other families teach their children that life is fixed against them and they can only whine and lose?  In the end, it is all about what you can produce.  I did not come from wealth and I was not blessed with contacts of any kind that helped me.  None.  Get over it.  If you deserve it you can succeed.  If you don't even try you won't.  Coward?  Lots of people are.  Everybody in civil service collecting a safe government check opted out of the lottery.  They made choices.  Most people make safe choices.  They will never ever be more than they signed up for.  Choices, you make them.
In response to your idiotic comment about Sheldon Adelson I suggest you check my registration date and see any of the posts I have made from the beginning.  Who pays for you?  William Ayers?
Quote:
 

I'd bet a lot of money that if we did a study, we'd find that the average guy who sells falafals on a street corner in NYC spends more hours and effort working than the guys on the 30th floor at Goldman Sachs (who buy the schwarma and falafals), despite making 1/30th the income.




Not a fucking prayer.  I know both of those guys.  The Goldman guy put in way more hours and works with way more pressure and they are all, every fucking one of them, brilliant.  The Felafel guy?  Not so much.  Almost anybody could do his job.  Not even I think I could do the G-S guy's job and I am 100% certain the felafel guy couldn't.  Or you.


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Re: I'm glad reagan dead [Re: moonrockmushy]
    #17286741 -

moonrockmushy said:
What are we supposed to work harder to do? 


1.  Work harder than what?  You still haven't answered my question about whether you think anybody should do any work at all to receive their benefits.
2.  Why work harder (or just better)?  To have a more comfortable life?  To buy better drugs and fancier whores?  To leave your progeny with a secure future?  Lots of reasons that are all personal.  Now I'll be a damn sight surprised if you'll find too many people who will say they want to work harder to support more and more parasitic couch potatoes who do nothing.
Quote:
I think the mutual consensus it that if you see your mission in life is to stockpile wealth in order to have power over others, you deserve to be taxed more.


I have no desire to have power over others.  That is the realm of politicians.  I personally don't give two shits what you do as long as it does cost me anything.  Your drug use is a victimless crime until the government victimizes me by making me pay for either prison or rehab.  Then it is no longer victimless.
Quote:
I agree the public education system and unions are fucked.  They have been sabotaged by opportunists who see these things as a business, not a public service.  The complacency is a real problem, and much of this stems from capitalism and technology changing our world so fast that the greater population cannot respond.  It calls for stong leaders, but unfortunately anyone resembling a stong leader is shot down, literally or otherwise.


The education unions have had extremely strong leaders.  They do not give a shit about the consumer.

You still haven't answered my questions.


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Re: I'm glad reagan dead [Re: zappaisgod]
    #17286787 -

"The people need to stand up and govern themselves"

Absolutely correct. Let's start by having Nanny decide what substances we put in our bodies, whether or not we can put salt on our food, protect us from sugary drinks, make sure our food is organic, ensure that trans-fats are not on the menu--I don't know what I would do if it weren't for big Nanny sticking her nose up my asshole telling me what is good for me....:smirk:


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:smug: [/url][/url] 
:smirk: IF THE NEIGHBORS COMPLAIN BECAUSE THE MUSIC'S TOO LOUD, TURN IT UP SO YOU CAN'T HEAR THEM BITCH    :smirk:

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Re: I'm glad reagan dead [Re: zappaisgod]
    #17286795 -

zappaisgod said:
Not a fucking prayer.  I know both of those guys.  The Goldman guy put in way more hours and works with way more pressure and they are all, every fucking one of them, brilliant.  The Felafel guy?  Not so much.  Almost anybody could do his job.  Not even I think I could do the G-S guy's job and I am 100% certain the felafel guy couldn't.  Or you.


No, my job is far more demanding and requires far more hours than the stereotypical Goldman Sachs guy we're talking about.  While he's making trades at his desk I'm removing septic bowel from children's abdomens; it may not be as glamorous and I'm not in a corner office in a high-rise but I find my work tremendously rewarding.

What I am most curious about is the one question you didn't answer (though I edited, so you may have missed it) regarding whether you think you'd be at the same station in life if you'd been born next to a guinea-worm infested lake in south sudan?  I spent two years working with Medicins sans Frontiers (doctors without borders) in Africa, and I went to bed every night (covered in DEET and constantly checking my mosquito net for holes) CERTAIN and THANKFUL for how lucky I am to have been born to family in the US that could afford to send me to school so that I could do the things I do.  I've seen too many kids die from diseases that don't exist or have been eradicated in the states, and there's no doubt in my mind whatsoever that if I had been born in the Congo or in Sudan, if I was even alive, I would not be a doctor today.  If I was lucky I'd be the Falafal guy. 

Slowly twisting guinea worms out of childrens' legs, having to ration your malaria medication among the kids because you don't have enough, it really gives you some perspective. 

You should try it some time.

Edit: I don't know what a joke about Shelly Adelson burning millions of dollars (and stimulating the economy - yay!) has to do with registration dates on the Shroomery, but it appears I've been around quite a while longer than you - not that it's relevant, but you brought it up.  I don't know who this Ayers guy you're referencing is?  I have this odd memory of a clip when Glenn Beck was yelling about a guy with a similar sounding name; you'd be surprised the crazy multicultural multilingual radio you get (especially at night) in certain parts of the world.  Heh, maybe they programmed me in my sleep since I'd always fall asleep listening to the AM radio (helped to keep predators away.) 


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"A celibate clergy is an especially good idea, because it tends to suppress any hereditary propensity toward fanaticism." - Carl Sagan

Edited by the spiral (11/26/12 09:49 PM)

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