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Re: I'm glad reagan dead [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #17284088 -

If these rich moguls are so productive and independant why do they need to bother complaining about taxes in the first place?  Why don't they just work harder to better their situation?  That is what I would do :shrug:

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Re: I'm glad reagan dead [Re: Gilgamesh18]
    #17284117 -

Gilgamesh18 said:
Taxes alone won't cut it spending cuts are going to need to happen and alot of americans are slaves to debt becuase they thought they could just buy shit that they didn't fully pay for. So really its there own fault the people who saved there money should not be punished by those who wasted it.


The American people were brainwashed into being overconsumers by the proponents of unrestricted capitalism.

It is the banker's fault for thinking that usury is acceptable.  It isn't and personal property laws don't work without mutual consent.  You can't just say "this is mine" and expect everyone to agree.

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Re: I'm glad reagan dead [Re: moonrockmushy]
    #17284129 -

Good for you. You must be an awesome individual.

Except for your condoning sloth and theft.

But hey... no-ones perfect.

As for the complaining... if people strolled into your life and took the stuff you had worked for, or hacked your savings account and took your money... I suspect you'd be complaining too.

I suspect you'll never have to worry about that though.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: I'm glad reagan dead [Re: moonrockmushy]
    #17284131 -

If you worked for your wealth and used it to buy property or goods it most certainly is your own. And the american people were not "brainwashed" most simply didn't think about the long term consequences of buying ridiculous amounts of goods and not even working for them. I will say again the people who were smart enough to live below there means and save should not be fucked over by the morons who ruined themselves with debt.


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Re: I'm glad reagan dead [Re: Gilgamesh18]
    #17284135 -

Gilgamesh18 said:
I will say again the people who were smart enough to live below there means and save should not be fucked over by the morons who ruined themselves with debt.



--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: I'm glad reagan dead [Re: moonrockmushy] * 1
    #17284158 -

The big discrepancy of incomes and wealth make taxing the untaxed a unrealistic proposal, you can't get blood from a stone. Taxing the lower to middle class will also have a more negative affect on consumption, which has serious implications on a economy mainly driven by consumer spending.

Taxing the rich also is not a realistic proposal, they will just get more into a hoarding mentality and hold back on any investment, resulting in even lower economic activity. I don't think higher tax rates will even produce more tax revenue in this environment, there are no good ways to raise tax revenues, sorry liberals.

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Re: I'm glad reagan dead [Re: qman]
    #17284173 -

qman said:
I don't think higher tax rates will even produce more tax revenue in this environment, there are no good ways to raise tax revenues, sorry liberals.


:happyclaps:


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Re: I'm glad reagan dead [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #17284178 -

Yeah, of course you think that.  You two are self-righteous neo-cons, you did it all on your own and now you are reaping the benefits, which belong to you alone.  Unfortunately for you not everybody views it this way, and unless you're gonna actually become independent and live and work outside the spere of government influence, you're just as fucked as the rest of us.

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Re: I'm glad reagan dead [Re: moonrockmushy]
    #17284221 -

Except I DO pay taxes. Lots of them.

And I'm certainly NOT fucked like the rest of you. I could live the rest of my days never working again. My employees might not be so fortunate.

I closed one shop because of the impending tax/health care hit. The rest are likely to follow.

Maybe the guy next to you in the unemployment line will be one of my ex-employees.

I'll still have mine.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: I'm glad reagan dead [Re: Gilgamesh18]
    #17284816 -

Gilgamesh18 said:
moonrockmushy said:
Fiscal conservatism
Gilgamesh18 said:
Social conservatism is a terrible thing fiscal conservatism is were its at . Along with liberal social values :bigyesnod:


And what is fiscal conservatism?  Less taxes on the rich and less regulation.

yeah, that is exactly what we need.  It will trickle down, right?


Simple fiscal discipline spending less than what is taken in how the money is spent is obviously a point of contention for conservatives and liberals but I think it is imperative for the US to reduce the debt by any means necessary.


That's how I think of fiscal conservatism, spending no more than you take in barring exceptional emergency circumstances, during which you borrow only what can be paid off in a reasonable timeframe when the economy recovers. Most "conservative" politicians don't want that though anyway, because social conservative pet projects tend to be expensive just like the left's pet projects are. Mainstream conservative politicians will never slash spending on things like drug enforcement, prisons and the military because that stuff keeps keep their core happy, but at the same time they want to be able to say they lowered taxes (which of course reduces revenues.) In most cases they don't seriously intend on reducing on spending social programs by too much either in spite of all the bluster to that effect, partly because, contrary to popular belief, a significant proportion of their supporters are in fact poor. Voters typically want low taxes but no reduction of funding to all their pet interests, and generally speaking successful politicians of any political affiliation make that impossible dream happen by borrowing endlessly.

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Re: I'm glad reagan dead [Re: Le_Canard]
    #17285204 -

ToiletDuk said:
I didn't care for the man, but I wouldn't wish Alzheimer's on anyone.



This.

:thumbup:


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------------------------
I am me. We are You.

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Re: I'm glad reagan dead [Re: luvdemshrooms] * 1
    #17285444 -

luvdemshrooms said:
Except I DO pay taxes. Lots of them.

And I'm certainly NOT fucked like the rest of you. I could live the rest of my days never working again. My employees might not be so fortunate.

I closed one shop because of the impending tax/health care hit. The rest are likely to follow.

Maybe the guy next to you in the unemployment line will be one of my ex-employees.

I'll still have mine.


Some of us, I like to think most people even, think that government should be more than a protection racket for overachievers to build vast empires.

Maybe you could find a charasmatic leader that would look out for your interests, get him to pin it all on a scapegoat (immigrants or black people seem like a good canidate), then use him to launch a campaign that will eventually make it clear that people like you are in charge and in control.

:hitler:

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Re: I'm glad reagan dead [Re: moonrockmushy]
    #17285455 -

This thread is cool and all but speed it up.


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Re: I'm glad reagan dead [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #17285516 -

luvdemshrooms said:
moonrockmushy said:
Shifting more burden onto the middle class.

Why should richer people, who have been allowed to prosper largely because of government and societal protections, not have to give back more?


No. Shifting the burden to those who currently pay nothing.

And who said anything about the rich not giving back more? They already do. Should not all have to share the burden?

You know (again), those that pay nothing?


Wow!  Mitt Romney is a Shroomery member!  Who would've thought?

Is it irony, that you got 47% of the popular vote, after your 47% comments?

Yeah I'm pretty sure that's irony.


--------------------


"A celibate clergy is an especially good idea, because it tends to suppress any hereditary propensity toward fanaticism." - Carl Sagan

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Re: I'm glad reagan dead [Re: moonrockmushy]
    #17285535 -

moonrockmushy said:
luvdemshrooms said:
Except I DO pay taxes. Lots of them.

And I'm certainly NOT fucked like the rest of you. I could live the rest of my days never working again. My employees might not be so fortunate.

I closed one shop because of the impending tax/health care hit. The rest are likely to follow.

Maybe the guy next to you in the unemployment line will be one of my ex-employees.

I'll still have mine.


Some of us, I like to think most people even, think that government should be more than a protection racket for overachievers to build vast empires.

Maybe you could find a charasmatic leader that would look out for your interests, get him to pin it all on a scapegoat (immigrants or black people seem like a good canidate), then use him to launch a campaign that will eventually make it clear that people like you are in charge and in control.

:hitler:


Total economic equality is pure fantasy and the only way you could even come close to implementing it would be through force. Hierarchies are part of the natural world there is nothing evil about being rich or having money.


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Re: I'm glad reagan dead [Re: Gilgamesh18]
    #17285589 -

I didn't see where he advocated total economic equality, was that in another post? In any case, a pure "free market" is arguably a fantasy as well.

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Re: I'm glad reagan dead [Re: Gilgamesh18]
    #17285595 -

I'm not talking about total economic equality.  I'm talking about everyone having access to food, education, and health care.  I am talking about punishing people who will take production to places with more exploitative labor practices than are allowed in America.  I am talking about more protection for organized labor, and reinforcing civil liberties.

Equality, like wealth, is just a word.  It has alot of denotations and connotations, but I think you know what I'm talking about.

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Re: I'm glad reagan dead [Re: Le_Canard]
    #17285642 -

ToiletDuk said:
I didn't care for the man, but I wouldn't wish Alzheimer's on anyone.


iran/contra! he said he forgot! he didn't have alzheimer's yet. if there's one person who ever deserved alzheimer's, it was reagan. i'd much rather lose my memory and have people take care of me than go through a painful death alone. i'd say he got pretty damn lucky.

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Re: I'm glad reagan dead [Re: passifloracaerulea]
    #17285678 -

Ron Jr. wrote a book ("My Father at 100", I think?)that  detailed his suspicions that his father was suffering from Alzheimer's while still in office.  He was forgetting the names of staffers he had known for over a decade and other things like that. 

A number of other people from that administration have also come forward with stories that they claim only began to make sense once they found out, after he left office, that he had Alzheimer's disease.

I don't hate the man, though I don't particularly like him either; if you read much about the Cold War beyond the soundbites and the "Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" video clips, it's a FAR more troubling picture than most people realize. 

Plus he raised taxes multiple (7?) times, and exploded our military budget, and had this strange obsession with Panama ...

anyway...

Read this book if you want to learn about the "evolution" of the US military in the last half-century

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Re: I'm glad reagan dead [Re: moonrockmushy]
    #17285679 -

moonrockmushy said:
luvdemshrooms said:
Except I DO pay taxes. Lots of them.

And I'm certainly NOT fucked like the rest of you. I could live the rest of my days never working again. My employees might not be so fortunate.

I closed one shop because of the impending tax/health care hit. The rest are likely to follow.

Maybe the guy next to you in the unemployment line will be one of my ex-employees.

I'll still have mine.


Some of us, I like to think most people even, think that government should be more than a protection racket for overachievers to build vast empires.

Maybe you could find a charasmatic leader that would look out for your interests, get him to pin it all on a scapegoat (immigrants or black people seem like a good canidate), then use him to launch a campaign that will eventually make it clear that people like you are in charge and in control.

:hitler:


I'm not looking for a scapegoat.

Is veiled insults and pokes the best you can do?


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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