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Offlinesomebodyelse
In_Is_Out

Registered: 06/12/03
Posts: 296
Last seen: 13 years, 4 months
gun-nuts & tree-huggers: what can we agree on?
    #1664630 - 06/26/03 03:43 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

This board regularly devolves into slanted ideological debate, with each side at least at times guilty of using manipulative untrue rhetoric. So how about a thread to stem the flow:

What can we agree on?

What are the fundamental issues we care about, left and right? What do they have in common? What are the underlying threads that unite us? Where do the differences in perspective come from?



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Anonymous

Re: gun-nuts & tree-huggers: what can we agree on? [Re: somebodyelse]
    #1664640 - 06/26/03 03:48 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

i'm a gun nut and a tree hugger.

i think we all agree that laws against victimless crimes are wrong. other than that, not much.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 33,751
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: gun-nuts & tree-huggers: what can we agree on? [Re: somebodyelse]
    #1664641 - 06/26/03 03:48 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

What can we agree on?



Breathing is important.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: gun-nuts & tree-huggers: what can we agree on? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1664654 - 06/26/03 03:52 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Breathing is important.




Trees supply Oxygen and Guns help defend yourself from those that would take the right of breathing away from you.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: gun-nuts & tree-huggers: what can we agree on? [Re: somebodyelse]
    #1664661 - 06/26/03 03:54 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

with each side at least at times guilty of using manipulative untrue rhetoric.




like what?

if we had a few examples we could discuss them.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Offlinesomebodyelse
In_Is_Out

Registered: 06/12/03
Posts: 296
Last seen: 13 years, 4 months
Re: gun-nuts & tree-huggers: what can we agree on? [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1664682 - 06/26/03 04:04 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

OK, anybody disagree with the following (in and of themselves, i.e. without associations)?

* We do not wish to pay higher taxes
* We do not enjoy restrictions on our liberty
* We do not enjoy being at war if it can be avoided
* We believe that many of our politicians lie to us


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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
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Registered: 02/09/01
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Re: gun-nuts & tree-huggers: what can we agree on? [Re: somebodyelse]
    #1664689 - 06/26/03 04:07 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

I can agree with all of them.

I think the differences that will be found will be the route to take in order to achieve the same thing.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Anonymous

Re: gun-nuts & tree-huggers: what can we agree on? [Re: somebodyelse]
    #1664708 - 06/26/03 04:17 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

* We do not wish to pay higher taxes

we don't all feel this way. some here would like to see more social welfare programs. if they do indeed wish to not have higher taxes, they must be conveniently forgetting that such programs come at a cost of tax dollars.

* We do not enjoy restrictions on our liberty

if our liberals support this, they must be again choosing to ignore a basic premise: having your money forcefully taken from you is a restriction of liberty.

* We do not enjoy being at war if it can be avoided

i think we all agree on this one. the "if it can be avoided" part is where the debate lies.

* We believe that many of our politicians lie to us

come on, that one's easy.


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Offlinesomebodyelse
In_Is_Out

Registered: 06/12/03
Posts: 296
Last seen: 13 years, 4 months
Re: gun-nuts & tree-huggers: what can we agree on? [Re: ]
    #1664767 - 06/26/03 04:39 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

I'm talking about these statements in and of themselves. No deconstruction. (We *know*, to use your example, that there is a disagreement on welfare; so let's leave that out of this particular thread...)

Can you think of more agreed upon like these (above)? I'll post more tomorrow.


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Anonymous

Re: gun-nuts & tree-huggers: what can we agree on? [Re: somebodyelse]
    #1664793 - 06/26/03 04:46 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

i was just pointing out that two of those aren't necessarily correct.

i could say, "we all want to conserve fossil fuels and fresh water, and have cleaner air".. and we'd all say we agree, but some of us also drive gas guzzlers, take 20 minute showers, and crank the AC down to 68 when it's 90 degrees out...

what we say we stand for and what we actually stand for are two different things.


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Offlineshakta
Infidel
Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2,633
Last seen: 12 years, 6 months
Re: gun-nuts & tree-huggers: what can we agree on? [Re: ]
    #1665538 - 06/26/03 09:37 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Ok how about...

Child molestors are bad.
Weed should be legal (should be an easy one on this site :smile:)
Saddam was a bad guy.


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Offlineatomikfunksoldier
T'was born oftrue in the yearof the cock!

Registered: 04/07/03
Posts: 1,500
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Re: gun-nuts & tree-huggers: what can we agree on? [Re: shakta]
    #1666156 - 06/27/03 02:04 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

i dont agree,

if university was free, I would pay higher taxes, you fascist pigs.

how about these to agree on;
america is evil
fuck america
fuck you


--------------------
enjoy the entertaining indentity i have constructed for you while you can.


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Invisibleangryshroom
Stranger
 User Gallery

Registered: 12/18/01
Posts: 7,262
Re: gun-nuts & tree-huggers: what can we agree on? [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1666380 - 06/27/03 03:26 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

heh.

America isin't bad...I like my country. Its just the fucking president (and his cabinet) that Im afraid of.

"Me, me, me...and fuck you" seems to be a good sloagan for America. Seems like everyone is out there to make money and not really care about anyone (or anything) else.

Im a tree hugger. Literally. I go on hikes and hug trees. Redwoods are my favorite. They are so big and strong. I enjoy climbing them and feeling their beautiful energy and power. Anyone who wants to take my beloved trees away from me can suck a


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Offlinesomebodyelse
In_Is_Out

Registered: 06/12/03
Posts: 296
Last seen: 13 years, 4 months
Re: gun-nuts & tree-huggers: what can we agree on? [Re: ]
    #1666559 - 06/27/03 05:08 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:


could say, "we all want to conserve fossil fuels and fresh water, and have cleaner air".. and we'd all say we agree, but some of us also drive gas guzzlers, take 20 minute showers, and crank the AC down to 68 when it's 90 degrees out...

what we say we stand for and what we actually stand for are two different things.





OK, my point is that really we (at least the rational elements of each wing) have similar goals as to how we'd like to live - as you say it is the method that we disagree on. My idea in this thread (which, oh well, seems to have suunk like a stone) is that bickering about the method is stupid.

Think of it - we elect a "nominally left" party which pushes through a load of vaguely left stuff which is then rolled back at the earliest opportunity by the nazi pigs who are elected when the pendulum swings the other way. Then, the opposite happens. Granted DC stinks to high heaven - but wouldn't a rational approach be to referendum the heck out of the country to find out what people actually *want* - and then build solutions to satisfy the largest number at once?

Again - methods are not important. If the goals can be achieved then aren't the methods relatively irrelevant?

So, fresh gauntlet: describe a list of lifestyle objectives & political goals which are shared by both left and right.


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Offlinezeronio
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Male

Registered: 10/16/01
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Re: gun-nuts & tree-huggers: what can we agree on? [Re: angryshroom]
    #1666582 - 06/27/03 05:27 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

:thumbup:
 


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 33,751
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: gun-nuts & tree-huggers: what can we agree on? [Re: somebodyelse]
    #1666593 - 06/27/03 05:35 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

but wouldn't a rational approach be to referendum the heck out of the country to find out what people actually *want* - and then build solutions to satisfy the largest number at once?



We already know what most of the country wants. It was demonstrated by the last congressional elections when the Republicans picked up seats during an election when they would have traditionally lost them.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Offlineatomikfunksoldier
T'was born oftrue in the yearof the cock!

Registered: 04/07/03
Posts: 1,500
Loc: a human-infested anthill
Last seen: 13 years, 2 months
Re: gun-nuts & tree-huggers: what can we agree on? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1666660 - 06/27/03 06:46 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

fuck the "rest of the country"

brainwashed mind-slaves shouldnt be allowed to vote, unless you are truly conscious that your decisions are not being influenced by an unseen hand, then go back to the acid mines where you belong.

enlightened despotism anyone? american democracy doesnt work, it needs restructuring, for it is corrupt and anti-progressive.


--------------------
enjoy the entertaining indentity i have constructed for you while you can.


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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: gun-nuts & tree-huggers: what can we agree on? [Re: somebodyelse]
    #1666662 - 06/27/03 06:48 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

with each side at least at times guilty of using manipulative untrue rhetoric.




i'm still waiting to see some examples of these manipulative rhetoric that the gun people use. I'm just curious.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Offlinezeronio
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Re: gun-nuts & tree-huggers: what can we agree on? [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1666669 - 06/27/03 06:53 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Here's a good example:
Quote:

Guns help defend yourself from those that would take the right of breathing away from you.




But that's off-topic, since we're trying to find something we agree upon.


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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: gun-nuts & tree-huggers: what can we agree on? [Re: zeronio]
    #1666673 - 06/27/03 06:56 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

gun people believe in the right to self defense. The original premise is wrong. Where is the manipulative rhetoric? That's what i was getting at.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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