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OfflinePed
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New Gun Law Gives Floridians License to Kill at their Discretion
    #5007061 - 12/02/05 03:05 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

BBC News

A law letting people in Florida kill in self-defence on the street without first trying to flee an attacker has been passed by Florida politicians.

Florida law already allows people to shoot a potential attacker in their home, place of work or car.

But until now, courts insisted that anyone confronted in a public place should first try to run away.

Critics of the law say it will bring a Wild West attitude to Florida - magnet to hundreds of thousands of tourists.

One critic said all the measure would do is sell more guns and turn the state into a modern version of the OK Corral.

The bill has been heavily backed by the National Rifle Association, the lobbying group which defends the rights of Americans to carry guns.

Dennis Baxley, the Republican sponsor of the Stand Your Ground bill said it was about meeting force with force.

"If I'm attacked, I should not have to retreat," he said.

The bill has already passed the Florida Senate and is expected to be signed into law by Governor Jeb Bush, the president's brother.

Opponents said the move gave gun owners a license to kill.

"For a House that talks about the culture of life it's ironic that we would be devaluing life in this bill," said Democratic state Rep Dan Gelber of Miami Beach.

"That's exactly what we're doing."

Opponents of gun control have celebrated recent victories: Congress let the ban on assault weapons expire last autumn, and since 2003, five states have approved laws allowing people to carry concealed weapons.

Thirty-five states now require the authorities to issue permits for concealed handguns to most applicants as long as they do not have criminal records, and two, Alaska and Vermont, allow concealed weapons without a permit.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4415135.stm


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Invisiblelooner2
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Re: New Gun Law Gives Floridians License to Kill at their Discretion [Re: Ped]
    #5007089 - 12/02/05 03:12 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

The new gun law does not give floridians a license to kill at their discretion. It gives them the right to defend themself if their life is in danger. Change the title of your post.

But on to the topic:

This makes perfect sense. If someone is attacked, the attacker effectively relinquishes all right to existence. The defender has a choice to make, either run or fight for defense. How can we force individuals to have a pre-planned reaction to a threat to their life? Absurd. Sometimes fleeing will be the best choice, and sometimes fighting would be the best choice. Leave that up to the individual that is attacked.


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OfflineBhairabas
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Re: New Gun Law Gives Floridians License to Kill at their Discretion [Re: looner2]
    #5007133 - 12/02/05 03:24 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Sounds good to me.. Maybe they'll kill eachother off.. Yee haw I got a gun!!!

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Invisiblelooner2
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Re: New Gun Law Gives Floridians License to Kill at their Discretion [Re: Bhairabas]
    #5007142 - 12/02/05 03:26 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Spoken like a true canadian.


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Invisiblebadchad
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Re: New Gun Law Gives Floridians License to Kill at their Discretion [Re: looner2]
    #5007145 - 12/02/05 03:26 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

EDIT: I've seen the bill worded this way: http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=05/04/06/1421202

Now the problem is defining what constitutes "feeling threatened". A young muslim male looks at me funny. I blow him away. I claim "I feel threatened".

I think it opens a pandora's box of subjectivity.


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...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436

Edited by badchad (12/02/05 03:29 PM)

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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: New Gun Law Gives Floridians License to Kill at their Discretion [Re: Ped]
    #5007211 - 12/02/05 03:45 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

This is a good law.

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OfflineTwirling
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Re: New Gun Law Gives Floridians License to Kill at their Discretion [Re: Ped]
    #5007411 - 12/02/05 04:29 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Ped said:
But until now, courts insisted that anyone confronted in a public place should first try to run away.

Critics of the law say it will bring a Wild West attitude to Florida - magnet to hundreds of thousands of tourists.




I can only imagine someone who is under attack, with a gun in hand, thinking to themselves "Hmmm, well the honerable thing to do is run, but since the courts allow me to kill this person now, I think I will." I'm not too sure it's going to change how people defend themselves.

The main issue would be whether this allows too much of a loophole for premeditated murder. But I'm guessing that since the law already allows for self-defense with a gun, this just bypasses the need to attempt to "run away" first (which is kind of a joke really).

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OfflinePhred
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Re: New Gun Law Gives Floridians License to Kill at their Discretion [Re: Redstorm]
    #5007503 - 12/02/05 04:47 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

It is indeed a good law. A very good law.

Here's a link to the full text of the bill. Please note its provisions are nowhere even close to the hysterical gibberish spouted by those opposed to it.

But hey, what with needing a whole 30 seconds or so to locate the full text on the internet, it's not surprising few make the effort. Too much time out of one's life, I suppose.


http://www.flsenate.gov/cgi-bin/view_pag.../billtext/html/




Phred


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OfflineTwirling
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Re: New Gun Law Gives Floridians License to Kill at their Discretion [Re: Phred]
    #5007529 - 12/02/05 04:54 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Just curious, does anyone know if there is a reason why this law was created? By which I mean, is there some legal case(s) where this has come into play?

The idea that the law would turn Florida into the modern version of the "OK Corral" seems pretty silly.

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Offlinewilshire
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Re: New Gun Law Gives Floridians License to Kill at their Discretion [Re: Ped]
    #5007594 - 12/02/05 05:19 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

"However, a the person is justified in the use of deadly force and does not have a duty to retreat only if:
(a) He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony; or.
(b) Under those circumstances permitted pursuant to s. 776.013

...

776.013. Home protection; use of deadly force; presumption of fear of death or great bodily harm

(1) A person is presumed to have held a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another when using defensive force that is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm to another if:
(a) The person against whom the defensive force was used was in the process of unlawfully and forcefully entering, or had unlawfully and forcibly entered, a dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle, or if that person had removed or was attempting to remove another against that person's will from the dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle; and
(b) The person who uses defensive force knew or had reason to believe that an unlawful and forcible entry or unlawful and forcible act was occurring or had occurred."

that's quoted from the new law. the emphasis is mine. again... it's entirely reasonable. florida's laws don't let you shoot someone because you're having an argument or you feel uncomfortable. a person must "reasonably" believe that such force is "necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony". killing someone over a traffic dispute was and still is a serious crime. this law was created to make clear to the courts that citizens had no duty to retreat before using defensive force when it's called for.

peter hamm, communications director for the brady campaign has said, "It's a particular risk faced by travellers coming to Florida for a vacation because they have no idea it's going to be the law of the land. If they get into a road rage argument, the other person may feel he has the right to use deadly force."

of course they may. and they may shoot you. and they will be prosecuted for it, because it has been and still is against the law to kill someone over such an argument. this law doesn't change any of that.

i'm still a young guy, and my politics tend to be changing all the time, but one thing that's always amazed me, no matter how i've felt about everything else, is how STUPID the anti-gun nuts can be.


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OfflinePed
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Re: New Gun Law Gives Floridians License to Kill at their Discretion [Re: Twirling]
    #5007604 - 12/02/05 05:24 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

>> The new gun law does not give floridians a license to kill at their discretion. It gives them the right to defend themself if their life is in danger. Change the title of your post.

The sheer profundity of your audicity is shocking. I titled my post based on my own impression of the article, as is my right being the author of this thread; you formed your own opinion from your impression of the article, stated it as though true as the day itself, and then commanded me to make adjustments to my thread so that it better reflects your views. Personally, I'm quite thankful your influence extends in to an online discussion forum and not in to making or passing laws.

In a given situation of this kind, there are typically two parties involved. One is the attacker, the other is the attacked. Once one of them is dead, who is to decide who was the attacker and who was the attacked? Will it be their income which decides their credibility? Their social status? Their race?

Ideally, this new gun law gives Floridians the right to use lethal force to defend themselves from a lethal threat. In reality, however, the new law gives Floridians a license to kill at their discretion so long as it's under the pretense that it was in their own defense from an attacker.


>> If someone is attacked, the attacker effectively relinquishes all right to existence.

There are many problems with this idea. That someone should be impelled to take an aggressive action, this immediately overrules their very right to life? Why? Who decides what an aggressive action is? Who decides which aggressive actions justify the immediate extermination of the individual? Should such decisions be made in the heat of the moment?

A petty theif might steal a man's wristwatch by holding a nail file to his throat, and as the criminal is running away he can be shot in the back without any consequence. In your mind this is how things should be, as the petty thief reliquished his right to existence the moment he decided to steal the man's wristwatch. A world that runs on this kind of thinking is soaked in blood and has no hope for a stable future.


>> The defender has a choice to make, either run or fight for defense. How can we force individuals to have a pre-planned reaction to a threat to their life? Absurd.

We already force individuals to have pre-planned reactions to fires, floods, disasters and other emergencies. Nobody considers these things absurd.


>> Sometimes fleeing will be the best choice, and sometimes fighting would be the best choice. Leave that up to the individual that is attacked.

"Leave that up to the individual"? That sounds like "discretion" to me. The problem with leaving it up to the individual is that it gives the individual discretion over what kind of force to use, be it lethal or otherwise. The attacker may or may not pose a real threat to the individual, but under this new law that consideration is irrelevant. The attacked may kill his attacker at his discretion.

Can a dead "attacker" defend the accusation that he attacked anybody? What about those who are inclined to kill for pleasure? Would not they use any excuse they can to kill a so-called attacker? Can we tie up courts debating the necessity of lethal force in every killing that falls under the juristiction of this new law?

The problems with this law are endless. Enormous debates break out over decriminalizing small amounts of marijuana because some say it "sends the wrong message to our children", but laws which put lethal weapons, as well as the right to use them, in the hands of anyone old enough to drink alcohol, pass virtually unopposed. And that's just madness.


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Offlinewilshire
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Re: New Gun Law Gives Floridians License to Kill at their Discretion [Re: Ped]
    #5007665 - 12/02/05 05:35 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

In reality, however, the new law gives Floridians a license to kill at their discretion so long as it's under the pretense that it was in their own defense from an attacker.

not at all. even if the law specifically stated that you must attempt to run away, anyone intent on murdering someone and attempting to pass it off as self-defense (as someone familiar with self-defense law, i can tell you this is a difficult stunt) could just say "hey, i couldn't run fast enough".


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OfflinePrajna
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Re: New Gun Law Gives Floridians License to Kill at their Discretion [Re: wilshire]
    #5007691 - 12/02/05 05:41 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Where I live in Canada our law reads almost exactly the same way as this new Florida law, the only difference being that very few of us would be "packing" at the time of an assault anyway, so it seldom comes up in the news...

We too have the right to shoot an kill someone if we feel that our life is in danger and it is the ONLY WAY to avoid being killed by them.

But really...what ever happened to just having a good ol' fistfight?...

"Critics of the law say it will bring a Wild West attitude to Florida - magnet to hundreds of thousands of tourists"... :rolleyes:

A little bit of exaggeration, or what?...


They probably passed this law in Florida because most people there can't run away due to them tripping over their own walkers...lol


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Offlinekotik
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Re: New Gun Law Gives Floridians License to Kill at their Discretion [Re: Prajna]
    #5008097 - 12/02/05 07:40 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

i agree with looner. this one and only time so far...

but i mean what is the point in having a gun on you for protection, if you have to turn your back and run away from an attacker before you even get a chance to use it?

Chances are, the attacker will not care whether you are facing them or not.


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Offlinewilshire
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Re: New Gun Law Gives Floridians License to Kill at their Discretion [Re: kotik]
    #5008156 - 12/02/05 08:00 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

if they can run faster than you, you're gonna find out the hard way. it's a shame they even had to make a law about this.


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Invisiblelooner2
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Re: New Gun Law Gives Floridians License to Kill at their Discretion [Re: Ped]
    #5008158 - 12/02/05 08:01 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Ped said:
The sheer profundity of your audicity is shocking.




That sounds pretty stupid. Put down the dictionary, no one is impressed.

Quote:

Ped said:
I titled my post based on my own impression of the article, as is my right being the author of this thread; you formed your own opinion from your impression of the article, stated it as though true as the day itself, and then commanded me to make adjustments to my thread so that it better reflects your views.




Nope, the title of your post was a lie. The first clause that must be fulfilled before an individual can take anothers life is if their life is in danger, it is under these circumstances that a decision based on the discretion of the threatened individual can be made. Your post clearly tries to swindle readers into thinking Floridians can haphazardly shoot whomever they wish because they now have discretion. Your post is either a clear attempt at misinforming readers or you can't comprehend your own arguments. It is probably a mixture of both.

Quote:

Ped said:
Personally, I'm quite thankful your influence extends in to an online discussion forum and not in to making or passing laws.




You are so full of hate. I wish peace upon you.

Quote:

Ped said:
In a given situation of this kind, there are typically two parties involved. One is the attacker, the other is the attacked. Once one of them is dead, who is to decide who was the attacker and who was the attacked? Will it be their income which decides their credibility? Their social status? Their race?




A judge. Maybe, maybe, maybe.

Quote:

Ped said:
Ideally, this new gun law gives Floridians the right to use lethal force to defend themselves from a lethal threat. In reality, however, the new law gives Floridians a license to kill at their discretion so long as it's under the pretense that it was in their own defense from an attacker.




There you go... so you do understand!

Quote:

Ped said:
There are many problems with this idea. That someone should be impelled to take an aggressive action, this immediately overrules their very right to life?




Aggressive? A better term would be life threatening. Being attacked typically represents life and death situations.

Quote:

Ped said:Why?




Because it is wrong to threaten, kill, and steal.


Quote:

Ped said:
Who decides which aggressive actions justify the immediate extermination of the individual?




The individual whos life is threatened.

Quote:

Ped said:
Should such decisions be made in the heat of the moment?




Definitely!

Quote:

Ped said:
In your mind this is how things should be, as the petty thief reliquished his right to existence the moment he decided to steal the man's wristwatch.




Ahh, you tried to assume how things are in my mind. You are wrong!

The man did relinquish his right to life the moment he threatened someone with a nail file to an individuals throat because the individual's life was threatened. If the individual believed his best reaction would have been to pull out a gun and shoot the thief, thats fine. If the individual decided that he will have a better chance at survival if he gave him his watch, thats fine. The moment the thief runs away and is no longer a threat, the individual is not at liberty to take someones his life.

Quote:

Ped said:
We already force individuals to have pre-planned reactions to fires, floods, disasters and other emergencies. Nobody considers these things absurd.




Because planned responses to certain situations have a proven protocol that increases the effectiveness of the response. It is not always so in a life and death situation in the back-alley of New York.

A martial artist may have a pre-planned response to use his skills to disarm an attacker.

A world class sprinter may have a pre-planned response to use his running ability to get away from the situation.

A 65 year old man may have a pre-planned response to pull the revolver from his jacket and kill his attacker.

Each response needs to be calculated by an individual. Which is exactly what this law enables.



Quote:

Ped said:
The problem with leaving it up to the individual is that it gives the individual discretion over what kind of force to use, be it lethal or otherwise. The attacker may or may not pose a real threat to the individual, but under this new law that consideration is irrelevant. The attacked may kill his attacker at his discretion.




There is no problem with that whatsoever. Like I said before, lethal or non-lethal reactions to the situation will be determined by the individual. If I was with my family, you better believe I will use my discretion in order to survive a situation so that not only will my life be saved, but the lives of my family.

Quote:

Ped said:
Can a dead "attacker" defend the accusation that he attacked anybody?




No, he's dead.


Quote:

Ped said:
Would not they use any excuse they can to kill a so-called attacker? Can we tie up courts debating the necessity of lethal force in every killing that falls under the juristiction of this new law?




Are you implying that serial killers will just go on a rampage with this new law? Formulating plans and circumstances so that they can murder and then claim it was in self defense? Deep stuff, man.

Quote:

Ped said:
The problems with this law are endless. Enormous debates break out over decriminalizing small amounts of marijuana because some say it "sends the wrong message to our children", but laws which put lethal weapons, as well as the right to use them, in the hands of anyone old enough to drink alcohol, pass virtually unopposed. And that's just madness.




Yeah, its just madness that individuals can defend themselves.

You have been defeated.


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Offlinelwm
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Re: New Gun Law Gives Floridians License to Kill at their Discretion [Re: looner2]
    #5008427 - 12/02/05 09:22 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Next I hear the republicans are gonna push through a law which states you can rape a woman if she wears suggestive clothing or appears to be asking for it. Ahh, the god-like insight of neo-naziism.

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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: New Gun Law Gives Floridians License to Kill at their Discretion [Re: lwm]
    #5008433 - 12/02/05 09:24 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

lwm said:
Next I hear the republicans are gonna push through a law which states you can rape a woman if she wears suggestive clothing or appears to be asking for it. Ahh, the god-like insight of neo-naziism.




Nope, that's not gonna happen.

If anything, Clinton and Lieberman are gonna take away violent and offensive media from everyone.

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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: New Gun Law Gives Floridians License to Kill at their Discretion [Re: Ped]
    #5009828 - 12/03/05 10:16 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

"If I'm attacked, I should not have to retreat," he said.




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Re: New Gun Law Gives Floridians License to Kill at their Discretion [Re: Redstorm]
    #5049711 - 12/11/05 08:02 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Lieberman ain't gonna do shit because some SOB is gonna put a bullit through his head if he don't get off shilling for mossad.

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OfflineAnisotropic
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Re: New Gun Law Gives Floridians License to Kill at their Discretion [Re: looner2]
    #5049748 - 12/11/05 08:13 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

"This makes perfect sense. If someone is attacked, the attacker effectively relinquishes all right to existence."

Agreed. If someone attacks me, I'm fucking going for the most damage I can inflict in the least amount of time. If that means killing them, it means killing them. If they try to rob or attack me, they should consider death it an occupational hazard.

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OfflineAnisotropic
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Re: New Gun Law Gives Floridians License to Kill at their Discretion [Re: Ped]
    #5049765 - 12/11/05 08:17 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

"In a given situation of this kind, there are typically two parties involved. One is the attacker, the other is the attacked. Once one of them is dead, who is to decide who was the attacker and who was the attacked? Will it be their income which decides their credibility? Their social status? Their race?"

That area of science is called Forensics.

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Offlinenakors_junk_bag
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Re: New Gun Law Gives Floridians License to Kill at their Discretion [Re: lwm]
    #5049818 - 12/11/05 08:27 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

I myself am an avid gun fan. Have several rifles including a armorlite .50 cal sniper rifle with a six hundred power scope, mossberg with 3 and half inch magnum chamber and countless other shotties. I own three handguns my favorite being a .40 cal rueger semi auto. Having said this I think this law is asking for trouble. A lot of people are going to die. Not all of them are going to be good guys either. When I was in knoxville tennessee I was assualted by a member of a notoriously violent gang. You may have heard of them, The Vice Lords, an ally of the also well known bloods. He having felt I ripped him off in a transaction which was I will say was quite lucrative to him, decided to confront me with his little .38 semi auto. His girlfriend was in the hall of the building we were in, had I produced my weapon and proceeded to spray paint the walls with his cerebral matter things would have been beyond control. If that law was in existance in Knoxville he could have very easily have before I could react spray painted the walls with my shit and gotten away with it, especially with the corroboration of his girlfriend. Instead we went outside and handled it like men. I still carry the scars on face that I earned that nite. He does likewise. The point of this narrative is to say that this law will effectively allow any Tom Dick and Harry to merc people as they see fit.

In the past people with a good record could get a concealed weapons permit. Provided they had to use it there would be an investigation, chances are the assailent would probably have some priors and a defense attorney could convey to the jury and judge the danger and legitmacy of leathal force. With this new law the process is going to become quite a bit more open to subjectivity, people are going to die because of this law. racial slayings are going to become more prevalent. Argutments are going to escalate to unreasonable outcomes quicker and well the whole places is going to become a like someone said, a scene from the wild west.

More often than not discretion is the vital ingredient when attacked, chopping someone down is and should be a last resort option after all other avenues have been thoughfully explored and out of necessity discarded. IMO


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Offlineelaspeinreason
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Re: New Gun Law Gives Floridians License to Kill at their Discretion [Re: nakors_junk_bag]
    #5049826 - 12/11/05 08:31 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

they should consider death an occupactional hazard.


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Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one

Diploid said:
What's with proclaiming freedom by abridging freedom? That makes no sense.

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