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Offlineenimatpyrt
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Re: Lets's talk guns. (small arms) [Re: Azmodeus]
    #2155959 - 12/03/03 06:14 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Of all the nations on earth, I'd say that merica certaintly isn't one that is "overcrowded". At least not a total population / number of sq miles. We just crowd ourselves for some reason.


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The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one.


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Anonymous

Re: Lets's talk guns. (small arms) [Re: Azmodeus]
    #2155968 - 12/03/03 06:15 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

More likely apparently. Look whats happeneing to america..everyone has a gun, but the ppl fucking you over have blinded you with lies and propoganda...the guns only make you 'feel' free.

everyone does not have a gun. few people do.

guns cannot protect people from being stupid. they cannot protect people from believing lies and propaganda if they are disposed to doing so. they can only protect people from force.

i do not feel "free" just because i can own a gun, but i'd feel alot less free if i was told i couldn't own a gun.


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Offlineenimatpyrt
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Re: Lets's talk guns. (small arms) [Re: Azmodeus]
    #2155988 - 12/03/03 06:23 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Azmodeus said:
That is a really good point actually...thinking about it more i see that most of the violence in america probably has nothing to do with the guns themselves, and more to do with locking up people for smoking natural plants, the increased addictive crap supplementing said natural plants, dead end soul destroying jobs that dull life, and the meaninglessness of the consumeristic shallowness that makes up the purchases we strive to one day afford.

Theres too many of us in too small a space.

They did an experiment with lab rats living in close quarters for generations. At first it was fine, then some started diying earlier, being unaturaly aggresive, birth defects and all kinds of shit....






In lieu of this, do you now retract your "more guns = mroe violence" statement?


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The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one.


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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: Lets's talk guns. (small arms) [Re: ]
    #2156016 - 12/03/03 06:35 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

mushmaster said:
Guns are made to shoot things period.

correct. you're earlier statement, that "more guns = more violence period", was not correct.




yeah i see that...


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"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: Lets's talk guns. (small arms) [Re: enimatpyrt]
    #2156020 - 12/03/03 06:36 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

enimatpyrt said:
In lieu of this, do you now retract your "more guns = mroe violence" statement? 




yeah yeah... :rolleyes: :grin:


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"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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Offlineenimatpyrt
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Re: Lets's talk guns. (small arms) [Re: Azmodeus]
    #2156024 - 12/03/03 06:37 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

excellent :-)

One subject, one liberal, at a time. i'll be the next bush! Note to self: No pretzels.


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The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one.


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Anonymous

Re: Lets's talk guns. (small arms) [Re: Azmodeus]
    #2156055 - 12/03/03 06:48 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

But mainly what i disaprove of is the gun hype mentality, of 'needing' a gun to be safe and free.

as long as you never have a need to defend yourself, you don't. should that need ever manifest itself, then you very well may. if you wish to defend yourself from force, you must employ force. such is the nature of force. things have always been this way, and they always will be.

My concern is with joe shamoe coming home to his wife in bed with his friend, grabbing the gun, an loosing control.

a stereotypical scenario that is actually extremely rare.

Or someone gets addicted to crack...can't afford it, but can go rob someone.

again... quite rare... crackheads generally don't use guns. guns are expensive.

Or being arrested for smoking pot, getting out, and not giving a fuck about society....those kinda things would occur more often if everyone had a gun i believe.

considering that most violent crimes are commited by people who already have a record of violent crime, and that even most of these are not carried out with the help of a gun, it doesn't make much sense to me that banning gun possession for law-abiding citizens should be an effective way of reducing crime.

keeping guns out of the hands of known violent criminals who would commit crimes with them, not preventing them from being kept by peaceful citizens who would defend themselves with them, is what is called for here.

Interesting...so murdering a man in your house that may or may not be there to harm you is not violent?! What did you do to warrent someone breaking into your home with intent to kill you?,,,cus its not my idea of killing time..

if someone breaks into your home, you are not required to endanger yourself for their sake and politely inquire as to what you owe the pleasure of their company.

personally though, i wouldn't shoot a burglar unless i absolutely had to. it'd be a bitch to get out of the carpet.

I agree, but for the recreation and putting food on the table. Those are not that common of reasons...its protection most own a gun for. Protection from people with other guns.

defense is one reason many people own guns, and it's just as good a reason as any other. it's not just for protection against people with guns. it's protection against people with clubs, knives, ropes, superior strength...

... and many people do own guns mainly for hunting and target shooting.

studies have indicated that americans use guns defensively on the order of 2 million times a year.

many of these are reported in local newspapers, and there is an archive of thousands of such stories at this page if you've got any interest in taking a look at them.

gun control tends to be an emotional issue for many, i can admit that there are many on both sides of it, including the side i favor, who get a little carried away and don't think things through entirely or let the truth stand in the way of their convictions. i've found this cite: http://www.guncite.com/ to be impressively objective, thorough, and rational. please have a look.







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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: Lets's talk guns. (small arms) [Re: enimatpyrt]
    #2156081 - 12/03/03 06:59 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

enimatpyrt said:
excellent :-)

One subject, one liberal, at a time. i'll be the next bush! Note to self: No pretzels. 




i wouldn't consider myself liberal.
don't let it go to your head. :wink:


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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Offlineenimatpyrt
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Re: Lets's talk guns. (small arms) [Re: Azmodeus]
    #2156153 - 12/03/03 07:33 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

The best advice I could think of if you happened to shoot a person in your house would be to make SURE that you told the cops that you felt your life was in danger. Shooting someone who is in your house against your will isn't, per se, legal. SHooting someone who YOU BELIEVE is putting your life in imminent danger is, until we get more Clinton types that outlaw it...


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The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one.


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Offlinemonoamine
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Re: Lets's talk guns. (small arms) [Re: ]
    #2157037 - 12/04/03 01:01 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

yes... there is an underground gun market. criminals are able to get guns whether they're illegal or not. this should suggest something about gun control to you if you're a thinking person.




That's always been my biggest beef with gun control. It's pretty much exactly the same as trying to control drugs.

However,the vast,vast majority of firearms start out being legally manufactured (legally purchased too) before they end up on the black market. I think these companies put out way too many firearms. I think they should take some responsibility over the issue.


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People think that if you just say the word "hallucinations" it explains everything you want it to explain and eventually whatever it is you can't explain will just go away.It's just a word,it doesn't explain anything...
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Offlinezeronio
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Re: Lets's talk guns. (small arms) [Re: enimatpyrt]
    #2157352 - 12/04/03 04:07 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Does your car have airbags / seatbelt? Do you "fear for your life" everytime you get in? Of course not, because you know you are protected.




Guns give only a feeling of protection, since it's most likely that you'll be killed with your own gun by someone who is close to you.
(BTW I heard that airbags often kill people instead of saving them.)

High crime rates are not related to gun control. It's possible to have guns in my country too, but the crime rate is much lower then in the USA. I don't know anyone who has been threatened or robbed and I don't know anyone who has a gun for personal protection.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Lets's talk guns. (small arms) [Re: monoamine]
    #2157397 - 12/04/03 05:51 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

I think these companies put out way too many firearms. I think they should take some responsibility over the issue.



The gun companies are highly regulated. They fill a demand or ther wouldn't be so many guns. It's not up to them to limit the amount of product they sell any more than booze, smokes or any other manufacturer.

If a product is legally manufactured, and then legally sold.... there is no reason the company should limit their earning potential just to suit those who wish they would.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: Lets's talk guns. (small arms) [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2158105 - 12/04/03 02:15 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

marketing also plays a factor. If owning a gun is cool, or owning the latest compact models that are semi automatic are made out to be desirable, more will be inclined to own them.

This is marketing strategy, and when your making tools to kill, they shouldn't be passed around like the latest electronic fad.

These paranoid delusions of invaders and assassins, government control, ppl out to kill your family, all seem far fetched and i am not bothered or worried in the least. If theres an intruder in my house, my dogs could probably handle it. The adt stickers on doors and windows do marvels without any need for a gun.

But no one should be able to make the descision of owning a gun but you.


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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Offlineenimatpyrt
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Re: Lets's talk guns. (small arms) [Re: zeronio]
    #2158938 - 12/04/03 07:35 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

zeronio said:
Quote:

Does your car have airbags / seatbelt? Do you "fear for your life" everytime you get in? Of course not, because you know you are protected.




Guns give only a feeling of protection, since it's most likely that you'll be killed with your own gun by someone who is close to you.
(BTW I heard that airbags often kill people instead of saving them.)




Oh boy, do show me a statistic for that one!


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The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one.


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Offlineenimatpyrt
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Re: Lets's talk guns. (small arms) [Re: Azmodeus]
    #2158954 - 12/04/03 07:42 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Azmodeus said:
marketing also plays a factor.  If owning a gun is cool, or owning the latest compact models that are semi automatic are made out to be desirable, more will be inclined to own them.

This is marketing strategy, and when your making tools to kill, they shouldn't be passed around like the latest electronic fad.




I'll jump at the chance to prove you wrong again :wink:  You find me ads for guns in mainstream advertisement (the "semi automatic compact models" you alluded to), and I'll find you advertisments for alcohol, tobacco and cars that kill people.  Wanna bet a dollar who'll find more?  Also, who cares? Why shouldn't a company be able to advertise their product?

Quote:

These paranoid delusions of invaders and assassins, government control, ppl out to kill your family,  all seem far fetched and i am not bothered or worried in the least.




You don't think that their is a high crime rate in America? you've got to be kidding me...  Most gun owners don't sit inside holding their shotgun waiting with a worried look for someone to break in.  They have a gun that is locked up and they are responsible with it's use. They aren't paranoid in that they constantly belive that someone is out to get them, but they do realize that does happen sometimes.  The cops in this country aren't, for the most part, out STOPPING these incidents, they investigate them and capture (with a horrible sucess rate) the perpetrator, then lock them up.  That might help the next would-be victim, but the first family who had their mother murdered isn't feeling any better.

Quote:

  If theres an intruder in my house, my dogs could probably handle it.  The adt stickers on doors and windows do marvels without any need for a gun.



Great, you have your dogs and an ADT sticker, i'll have my dogs, a security sticker, and a gun. All I ask is the freedom to do what you do, to defend my home to the utmost of my desire to do so.  I'm not saying I want to put claymores all around my house, I want to own a device that has many uses, one of which could possibly be saving my family from a criminal.
Quote:


But no one should be able to make the descision of owning a gun but you. 




Exactly :-)


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Offlinemonoamine
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Re: Lets's talk guns. (small arms) [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2158967 - 12/04/03 07:46 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

If a product is legally manufactured, and then legally sold.... there is no reason the company should limit their earning potential just to suit those who wish they would.





I forgot,common decency and large corporations don't go together.


--------------------
People think that if you just say the word "hallucinations" it explains everything you want it to explain and eventually whatever it is you can't explain will just go away.It's just a word,it doesn't explain anything...
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Offlineenimatpyrt
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Re: Lets's talk guns. (small arms) [Re: monoamine]
    #2158980 - 12/04/03 07:50 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

What is indecent about guns?

I doubt that many crack dealing drug lords sit down with a copy of GnA and look for the best guns...

You need to dictate how selling a product that 99% of the legal buyers use in a legal manner is indecent.


It's only in a liberalized world where "guns are bad and super naughty, lets all go get a gay marriage and take money from those evil rich people" that you can think like that...


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The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Lets's talk guns. (small arms) [Re: monoamine]
    #2159023 - 12/04/03 08:04 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Decency has zip to do with it. Corporations are in business to make money, not to make you happy.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Offlinemonoamine
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Re: Lets's talk guns. (small arms) [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2159081 - 12/04/03 08:29 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

You can still make money without selling your soul. It's not about making me happy, it's common fuckin' decency. Just like you expect to not get defective or unsafe products. I guess the almighty dollar rules all though.

Are you in favor of the FDA,Luv?


--------------------
People think that if you just say the word "hallucinations" it explains everything you want it to explain and eventually whatever it is you can't explain will just go away.It's just a word,it doesn't explain anything...
Douglas Adams


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Lets's talk guns. (small arms) [Re: monoamine]
    #2159131 - 12/04/03 08:47 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Nope. I am in favor of the feds only doing what is specifically spelled out in the constitution.

I am also not in favour of the BATF, IRS, DEA and a whole host of others.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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