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 infidelGOD
illusion
Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
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 Re: Lets's talk guns. (small arms)  [Re: ]
#2149136 - 12/01/03 10:50 AM (20 years, 10 months ago) |
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oh i know. just making a point about caliber vs. muzzle velocity, where a lot of misconceptions occur. just thought monoamine might like to know.
I wasn't confusing the two and I shouldn't have even brought up the M4, because even a regular .22 can be pretty damn powerful.
Edited by infidelGOD (12/01/03 10:58 AM)
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 enimatpyrt
addict
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Re: Lets's talk guns. (small arms) [Re: infidelGOD]
#2150644 - 12/01/03 08:45 PM (20 years, 10 months ago) |
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For defense, a common method of measurement is the "Stopping power" as calcuated by a qualitative anaylses of bullet penetration on ballistics gel, a gel simulated to have the same consistency and reaction to a bullet as soft tissue. What do you want to use your gun for? Massad Ayoob is the Israeli I mentioned earlier, enjoy his books. USArmy Maj John Plaster is the author of numerous books on distance rifle shooting in combat and training settings.
BTW, To make this fit the "Activism" part of the discussion, Join the NRA! 
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The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one.
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monoamine
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Re: Lets's talk guns. (small arms) [Re: Phred]
#2150667 - 12/01/03 08:51 PM (20 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Nice try, monoamine, but this is in no way shape or form a question having to do with politics, activism, or law.
No, seriously. I've seen a lot of news stories having to do with the technical aspects of firearms,for example there is a lot of talk of phasing out the M-16A2 and replacing it with smaller rifle because it was designed to shoot long distances in open fields and the combat in Iraq is taking place over short distances. There are reports of it taking five shots to take down insurrgents and troops are getting killed because if you take one shot from an AK-47 (a more powerful rifle with more stopping power),you're basically fucked. The larger calliber round will go right through Kevlar at shorter distances.
I want to better understand the technical aspects so I can better understand things like this.
The only alternative is OTD. I'm not holding my breath to get any answers from there.
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People think that if you just say the word "hallucinations" it explains everything you want it to explain and eventually whatever it is you can't explain will just go away.It's just a word,it doesn't explain anything...
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Anonymous
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Re: Lets's talk guns. (small arms) [Re: monoamine]
#2150678 - 12/01/03 08:55 PM (20 years, 10 months ago) |
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you can find info about the AK-47 with google. there are sites dedicated entirely to that rifle.
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monoamine
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Re: Lets's talk guns. (small arms) [Re: ]
#2150704 - 12/01/03 09:10 PM (20 years, 10 months ago) |
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OK,if Mark wants to put this to rest,at least help me with these basic questions.
I'll list what I think I know,and you can correct me if you want.
calliber-basically the size of the bullet,when in metric it's listed as a whole number followed by mm,when in standard it's measured by a decimal followed by calliber. (9 mm and .45 calliber)
muzzle velocity-speed of the bullet when leaving the rifle. The "power" of the bullet is measured by the calliber and the muzzle velocity. (i.e. larger calliber plus higher muzzle velocity= more power)
recoil-the "kick" of the gun.More recoil= less accuracy because harder to aim
larger barrel= greater accuracy over long distances (i.e. at 300 meters an assault rifle will probably be more accurate than a SMG)
What is the diference between a clip and a magazine? How does the military give guns the M designation and how does it work?
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People think that if you just say the word "hallucinations" it explains everything you want it to explain and eventually whatever it is you can't explain will just go away.It's just a word,it doesn't explain anything...
Douglas Adams
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Anonymous
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Re: Lets's talk guns. (small arms) [Re: monoamine]
#2150737 - 12/01/03 09:30 PM (20 years, 10 months ago) |
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calliber-basically the size of the bullet,when in metric it's listed as a whole number followed by mm,when in standard it's measured by a decimal followed by calliber. (9 mm and .45 calliber)
caliber refers to the approximate width of the bullet. information about the actual chambering... the shape and size of the entire round, is included in the full designation. ex. a .38 special and a .38 magnum fire a bullet of the same caliber, but the ammunition is different. the same is true of the 7.62mm NATO round vs. the 7.62 soviet round.... there are many, many different rifle shells with a .30 cal bullet.
muzzle velocity-speed of the bullet when leaving the rifle. The "power" of the bullet is measured by the calliber and the muzzle velocity. (i.e. larger calliber plus higher muzzle velocity= more power)
muzzle velocity is the speed of the bullet as it leaves the barrell. it's not the only indicator of power though. the mass of the bullet is important as well.
recoil-the "kick" of the gun.More recoil= less accuracy because harder to aim
yes... but recoil alone doesn't reduce accuracy. it can make it harder to shoot rapidly with accuracy though... i know what ya mean though.
larger barrel= greater accuracy over long distances
yep.
What is the diference between a clip and a magazine?
a clip is a metal strip that rounds are attached to and is slid into a gun.
a magazine is a box with a spring in it which can be removed from the gun. you've probably seen these in movies or something.
SKS clips
an AK-47 magazine.
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monoamine
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Re: Lets's talk guns. (small arms) [Re: ]
#2150777 - 12/01/03 09:49 PM (20 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
caliber refers to the approximate width of the bullet. information about the actual chambering... the shape and size of the entire round, is included in the full designation.
So when the give the measurement like 7.62*(insert number here),the first number refers to the width and the second number refers to what? The length?
Quote:
muzzle velocity is the speed of the bullet as it leaves the barrell. it's not the only indicator of power though. the mass of the bullet is important as well.
That's what I meant. So basically using simple laws of physics,a heavier round fired faster has more "power" than a ligher round fired slower?
And muzzle velocity is just the speed of the round when it leaves the barrel,right? But it doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the "power" because the bullet can slow down. (i.e. an M-16 is more poweful than an M4,even though they have similar muzzle velocities because the M-16 has a longer barrel and the bullet maintains it's speed better.)
Quote:
larger barrel= greater accuracy over long distances
yep.
That's why the Draginov sniper rifle is like six feet long?
Quote:
a clip is a metal strip that rounds are attached to and is slid into a gun.
a magazine is a box with a spring in it which can be removed from the gun. you've probably seen these in movies or something.
So a Garrand used a clip,while an M-16 uses a magazine?
You know anything about the military firearm "M" designations? Is there a system to it,or is just kind of arbitrary?
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People think that if you just say the word "hallucinations" it explains everything you want it to explain and eventually whatever it is you can't explain will just go away.It's just a word,it doesn't explain anything...
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d33p
Welcome to Violence
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Re: Lets's talk guns. (small arms) [Re: ]
#2150797 - 12/01/03 09:58 PM (20 years, 10 months ago) |
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Not specifically adressed to mush but anyway.
How the hell did that guy kill a deer with a .22, deers are pretty shakey and are hard to get very close to. Unless you shot a pregrant doe and the dead fetus popped out i think you achived a feat. They make some BB guns with more stopping power than a .22
About the ak and m16-a2. They do make a smaller variants of all the american rifles. How small would they be speaking? I consider the m16-a2 to be medium sized and lightwieght. About it taking 5 shots to take a target down. If you get shot with the m6-a2 or the ak-47 the imediate effect it causes would similar. And special rounds are produced to go through body armor regaurdless. Soldiers should wear their critical plate anyway.
And about the clip magazine thing. Both are interchanged. I would call a clip something more like what is used in the garand. The picture of the sks rounds is really just a speed loader as that strip of bullets is pushed down through the reciever into the magazine.
The sks is a nice gun too, i find it overheats to fast as i found i had to replace my standard plastic based foregrip for a wood one after 30 minutes of fireing. Maybe when i go out and buy a digital camera for my birthday in a couple weeks ill show you some good weapons.
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I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.
bang bang
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Anonymous
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Re: Lets's talk guns. (small arms) [Re: monoamine]
#2150806 - 12/01/03 10:00 PM (20 years, 10 months ago) |
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So when the give the measurement like 7.62*(insert number here),the first number refers to the width and the second number refers to what? The length?
7.62 mm is the metric version. the bullet is 7.62 mm across.
So basically using simple laws of physics,a heavier round fired faster has more "power" than a ligher round fired slower?
yes.
i.e. an M-16 is more poweful than an M4,even though they have similar muzzle velocities because the M-16 has a longer barrel and the bullet maintains it's speed better.)
i believe that the bullet leaving the muzzle of an M-16 is moving faster than one leaving the barrel of an M-4. a longer barrel means that the bullet spends more time under the influence of the expanding gasses behind it... there is more time for it to absorb energy and pick up speed.
That's why the Draginov sniper rifle is like six feet long?
that's why most every sniper rifle is fairly long.
So a Garrand used a clip,while an M-16 uses a magazine?
yep.
You know anything about the military firearm "M" designations? Is there a system to it,or is just kind of arbitrary?
i'm not sure how they do it. it seems pretty arbitrary to me.
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monoamine
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Re: Lets's talk guns. (small arms) [Re: d33p]
#2150812 - 12/01/03 10:01 PM (20 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
They make some BB guns with more stopping power than a .22
I have an old Russian air rifle that's about as powerful as my friend's .22. It will go right through my fence.
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People think that if you just say the word "hallucinations" it explains everything you want it to explain and eventually whatever it is you can't explain will just go away.It's just a word,it doesn't explain anything...
Douglas Adams
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Anonymous
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Re: Lets's talk guns. (small arms) [Re: monoamine]
#2150908 - 12/01/03 10:30 PM (20 years, 10 months ago) |
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if you are looking to buy a combat rifle, an SKS isn't a bad choice. you can get one for less than $300, the ammo is cheap, and it can be configured to accept a 30 rd. magazine and even fire full-auto with basic tools (but check with the laws first... if you're into that sort of thing). haha... they sell a book called "Full Auto Conversion of the SKS Rifle" at walmart.
http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.gsp?product_id=1484723&cat=21563&type=3&dept=3920&path=0%3A3920%3A18833%3A21563
"Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the American people's liberty teeth and keystone under independence. From the hour the Pilgrims landed, to the present day, events, occurrences and tendencies prove that to ensure peace, security and happiness, the rifle and pistol are equally indispensable. The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good." - George Washington
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
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Re: Lets's talk guns. (small arms) [Re: monoamine]
#2150917 - 12/01/03 10:32 PM (20 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
monoamine said:
calliber-basically the size of the bullet,when in metric it's listed as a whole number followed by mm,when in standard it's measured by a decimal followed by calliber. (9 mm and .45 calliber)
It can be more complicated. For example a .223 is sometimes refered to as a 5.56mm.
A .38 special and a .357 magnum are the same caliber but have different amounts of powder packed in. Generally speaking you can shoot a .38 special in a gun designed for a .357 magnum but not the other way around.
A 30-06 was created in 1906.
There are so many different calibers that have unusual designations.
The 9mm kurz is also called a .380 auto.
As for clip vs. magazine mushmaster has it correct. Only those who don't know better or are careless interchange the two words.
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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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d33p
Welcome to Violence
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Re: Lets's talk guns. (small arms) [Re: ]
#2150940 - 12/01/03 10:36 PM (20 years, 10 months ago) |
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The CETME G3 .308 Rifle is also a nice rifle. Many cost very little around $300 but the bullets may run you more money. The kick on it is worth it though.
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I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.
bang bang
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Anonymous
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Re: Lets's talk guns. (small arms) [Re: d33p]
#2150949 - 12/01/03 10:38 PM (20 years, 10 months ago) |
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i'm thinking about buying an SKS, converting it to full-auto and 30-round magazines, and burying it somewhere safe with a few hundred rounds of ammo. hopefully i'll never have to dig it up.
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zeronio
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Registered: 10/16/01
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Re: Lets's talk guns. (small arms) [Re: ]
#2151159 - 12/02/03 06:33 AM (20 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
hopefully i'll never have to dig it up.
But you'll have it by hand when north koreans invade. 
I can understand that someone wants a gun for sport or hunting, but it's not normal that people in a modern and democratic society need weapons because they're in fear for their life. I would expect that people in Afghanistan feel that way, not in the richest country of the world.
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Anonymous
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Re: Lets's talk guns. (small arms) [Re: zeronio]
#2151162 - 12/02/03 06:42 AM (20 years, 10 months ago) |
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scoff if you will but i think history will indicate that my concern is not unfounded.
at a cost of less than $400, why the hell not...
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zeronio
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Re: Lets's talk guns. (small arms) [Re: ]
#2151174 - 12/02/03 07:11 AM (20 years, 10 months ago) |
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There is an interesting case in recent history. In Bosnia there was a certain point when the fear and mass hysteria was high enough that people dug out the guns from their backyards and started killing their neighbours.
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Anonymous
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Re: Lets's talk guns. (small arms) [Re: zeronio]
#2151178 - 12/02/03 07:12 AM (20 years, 10 months ago) |
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sounds like a good reason to own a gun.
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zeronio
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Re: Lets's talk guns. (small arms) [Re: ]
#2151179 - 12/02/03 07:13 AM (20 years, 10 months ago) |
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Sounds like a good idea to leave such a country before something like that happens.
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Anonymous
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Re: Lets's talk guns. (small arms) [Re: zeronio]
#2151186 - 12/02/03 07:22 AM (20 years, 10 months ago) |
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you can pack it up and become a refugee, i'll dig up my gun.
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