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 DieCommie
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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 Re: Pretty much how I think if anyone is even morbidly curious  [Re: xFrockx]
#14821775 - 07/25/11 11:18 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
xFrockx said:
Would one have been relevant without the other?
Absolutely.
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 xFrockx
 
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,458
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Re: Pretty much how I think if anyone is even morbidly curious [Re: 4896744]
#14821780 - 07/25/11 11:21 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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"At first it was just an interest most likely. "
The fact remains that without the interest his abilities as a businessman would have had no direction.
"He always had the option of making his company a non-profit. He never did."
Imagine if there were a non-profit software company that made products, imagine how unsuccessful they would be and how inferior their product would be compared to the for-profit competition. Wait a second, do you use Firefox?
"The only way to even hope of having all businesses become non-profits is by having the government force them which would be disastrous imo. "
I would agree that is disasterous and I don't think all companies would become non-profit, but I think the non-profit model can compete with and beat a for-profit model, especially in sectors like groceries, insurance, telecommunications, prisons, and others.
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xFrockx
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Posts: 10,458
Loc: Northeast
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Re: Pretty much how I think if anyone is even morbidly curious [Re: DieCommie]
#14821789 - 07/25/11 11:23 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Can you explain how he could have made Microsoft with just one or the other?
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DieCommie
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: Pretty much how I think if anyone is even morbidly curious [Re: xFrockx]
#14821797 - 07/25/11 11:25 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
xFrockx said:
Can you explain how he could have made Microsoft with just one or the other?
I never made that claim. You ask the most irrelevant, sidetracking questions...
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xFrockx
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,458
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 14 hours, 44 minutes
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Re: Pretty much how I think if anyone is even morbidly curious [Re: DieCommie]
#14821835 - 07/25/11 11:34 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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And are you sidetracking? What point are your questions? IThink is at least challenging the fact that it would run, you seem to just want to argue that they get paid the same, which is factually false. Are you changing your argument now to that human nature prevents it from happening? Do you use Firefox?
Did you look at that CEO pay study yet?
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DieCommie
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: Pretty much how I think if anyone is even morbidly curious [Re: xFrockx]
#14821846 - 07/25/11 11:38 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Did you look at that CEO pay study yet?
Yes. It supports my claim that CEOs of non-profits do make huge salaries, and it is in contradiction to your claim that the highest pay non-profit CEO makes less than a million.
Quote:
Do you use Firefox?
No, I use chrome. Its a superior product. Some times (many times I believe) having a profit drive more than makes up for the capital lost to profits.
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xFrockx
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,458
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 14 hours, 44 minutes
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Re: Pretty much how I think if anyone is even morbidly curious [Re: DieCommie]
#14821879 - 07/25/11 11:49 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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"Yes. It supports my claim that CEOs of non-profits do make huge salaries, and it is in contradiction to your claim that the highest pay non-profit CEO makes less than a million."
Well I do agree that some of them were huge. The average's were not terrible, though. What do you think is reasonable? That's the only qualification the IRS makes, that the compensation be "reasonable." Horrible language on their part, IMO.
"No, I use chrome. Its a superior product."
They are comparable, IMO. I see no force to the opinion that non-profits can't do the same thing as for-profits.
"Some times (many times I believe) having a profit drive more than makes up for the capital lost to profits."
It doesn't take profits to make people driven, but I do agree that profit is a way to motivate people. Motivation can come from other things though. However, for most people employed with a non-profit that would compete with for-profits, their pay would be the same if not better. That is one aspect that I have considered, making the "average" jobs paid much higher than the for-profits can by paying the executives much less. That way, the majority of people working with the company would highly value their job and the organization, if it is indeed true that profit is a motivator.
Can you please tell me what your disagreement with me is and what your premises are for having it?
Edited by xFrockx (07/25/11 11:57 AM)
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Pretty much how I think if anyone is even morbidly curious [Re: xFrockx]
#14821929 - 07/25/11 12:00 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
xFrockx said:
"Yes and I've stated it over and over. Do I have to give up on you too?"
Because people are greedy? That's just an assumption. Is there any physical or legal reason? Honestly, if you you want to be the old man convincing the young one that the world sucks, I'm not willing to participate in that conversation to convince you that it doesn't. The world is what it is, and if you're bitter about it, go pound some sand.
"I could also say I think that Burning Man is "proof" of how people could live differently but that would be a mistake. "
If Burning Man is anything like their regional events it is not representative of any society that would function for any extended period of time. It's a party, that's about it. Why is talking about non-profits replacing for profits conjuring up images of a Burning-man like world? Its not even that much of a change. It's not drastic, it doesn't require any more energy (in fact, it requires less because it does not want as much)
It's an assumption that people are greedy? You mean to say I can't produce any evidence for that?  And I'm not bitter about any part of what the world is now. I got over that self indulgent bs. I just acknowledge the evidence that is in the world on a daily basis and past human history and this includes myself and all my friends and acquaintances. If I say the world sucks that has nothing to do with not accepting the world as it presents itself. That's just a personal preference that includes all of nature and the way it operates too.
I used BM as possible evidence that humans are not by nature greedy.  It's an incorporated city in Nevada and has the third highest population in the state with a fire dept and police force along with basic services and the cost of entry could be seen as paying taxes.
--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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DieCommie
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: Pretty much how I think if anyone is even morbidly curious [Re: xFrockx]
#14821939 - 07/25/11 12:02 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Can you please tell me what your disagreement with me is and what your premises are for having it?
Well, my foremost disagreement is with your usage of CEO and profits interchangeably. They are not the same, its confusing to discuss because you keep using them as though they are the same. Like this,
"That is one aspect that I have considered, making the "average" jobs paid much higher than the for-profits can, but pay the executives much less."
The pay rates are not the profits. Profits are what is left over after the workers (including the CEO) get paid. Both for profits and nonprofits have the freedom to choose to pay all of their employees what they want. The owner chooses the pay, not the CEO. The CEO gets paid by the owner, and every dollar that the CEO gets is a dollar less of profit.
Fundamentally I disagree with your stance because I think that profit motivator more than makes up for the loss in capitol do to payout to the shareholders. Its not a premise that I have to support it, is evidence. Evidence like knowing that profit margins are often very low. Wal-Mart's profit margin is just a couple of percent. Removing that profit would do little for the bottom line, but it would do a lot for the expectations of the CEO and other workers. Other evidence directly, like going to the Post Office vs UPS. The only reason I would choose USPS over UPS is because the have a legal monopoly on first class mail.
I like profit. Its good for everybody.
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xFrockx
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,458
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 14 hours, 44 minutes
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Re: Pretty much how I think if anyone is even morbidly curious [Re: Icelander]
#14821949 - 07/25/11 12:04 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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You can produce evidence to say people are anything. From greedy, to liars, to honest, to kind, to anything. People are paradoxical things, according to Becker anyway.
"It's an incorporated city in Nevada and has the third highest population in the state with a fire dept and police force along with basic services and the cost of entry could be seen as paying taxes."
Ok, it's a really really big party.
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4896744
Small Town Girl
Registered: 03/06/10
Posts: 5,128
Loc: United States
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Re: Pretty much how I think if anyone is even morbidly curious [Re: DieCommie]
#14821952 - 07/25/11 12:05 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
I would agree that is disasterous and I don't think all companies would become non-profit, but I think the non-profit model can compete with and beat a for-profit model, especially in sectors like groceries, insurance, telecommunications, prisons, and others.
I don't necessarily disagree that a few non-profits could possibly be successful in some of the sectors you mentioned. You had said you were a non-profit capitalist earlier, so I assumed you were advocating this system for the whole of the economy.
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Live your Life! 
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Pretty much how I think if anyone is even morbidly curious [Re: xFrockx]
#14821968 - 07/25/11 12:09 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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You can produce evidence to say people are anything. From greedy, to liars, to honest, to kind, to anything. People are paradoxical things. Read your Becker dammit.
That's my point. To think people won't be greedy is illogical. They can also be generous but rarely when they don't feel they have enough and most people, it seems never have enough. This is why most Americans are in debt up to their eyeballs, while I, making a fraction of what they made am sitting pretty and have never had any real debt. I'm just not quite as greedy and have less feeling of entitlement then most.
--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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xFrockx
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,458
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 14 hours, 44 minutes
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Re: Pretty much how I think if anyone is even morbidly curious [Re: DieCommie]
#14822004 - 07/25/11 12:18 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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"The pay rates are not the profits. Profits are what is left over after the workers (including the CEO) get paid. Both for profits and nonprofits have the freedom to choose to pay all of their employees what they want. The owner chooses the pay, not the CEO. The CEO gets paid by the owner, and every dollar that the CEO gets is a dollar less of profit. "
I understand this, and you didn't need to explain it. I was merely talking about both at once because both CEO pay and profits would be lower. The pay of a non-profit is regulated by the IRS and must be "reasonable." (whatever that means). Profit-companies have no such legal boundary.
"Wal-Mart's profit margin is just a couple of percent. Removing that profit would do little for the bottom line"
What would happen to the bottom line if Wal-Mart operated tax-free like a non-profit?
"Other evidence directly, like going to the Post Office vs UPS. The only reason I would choose USPS over UPS is because the have a legal monopoly on first class mail."
A non-profit mailing company could compete with the govt and UPS... I like that idea! No one is doing it yet, but it could work.
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DieCommie
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: Pretty much how I think if anyone is even morbidly curious [Re: xFrockx]
#14822025 - 07/25/11 12:23 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
"Wal-Mart's profit margin is just a couple of percent. Removing that profit would do little for the bottom line"
What would happen to the bottom line if Wal-Mart operated tax-free like a non-profit?
Considering that taxes are only applied to profits, the bottom line would be only a few percent different.
Quote:
A non-profit mailing company could compete with the govt and UPS... I like that idea! No one is doing it yet, but it could work.
Instead of being sarcastic, why not simply clue me in as to why the USPS doesnt fit your idea of a non-profit mailing company. How would a non-profit mailing company operate differently than the USPS? (Presumably, it wouldnt get the same protections on first class mail monopoly the USPS gets, which would make it even harder to compete)
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xFrockx
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,458
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 14 hours, 44 minutes
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Re: Pretty much how I think if anyone is even morbidly curious [Re: DieCommie]
#14822050 - 07/25/11 12:29 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Few percent here, few percent there, it does add up. Add in grants, donations, and other ways non-profits can fund themselves and there's a few more. The numbers do add up. As you probably know, grocery stores operate on pretty thin margins to begin with, and so if another store's prices were lower, even if it was by, say 10%, other stores won't be able to lower their prices to compete. Insurance companies are the same way, since premiums must be partially based on how much the company needs to run. Lower cost = lower possible premiums.
"Instead of being sarcastic, why not simply clue me in as to why the USPS doesnt fit your idea of a non-profit mailing company."
It is subject to sluggish government control rather than a more flexible private ownership.
The first-class mail thing would be a problem that it would have like UPS, but there's a huge market for private shipping. There's UPS, FedEx, DHL, and others I'm sure. A non-profit could run more cheaply for many reasons and offer lower prices.
Edited by xFrockx (07/25/11 12:34 PM)
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DieCommie
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: Pretty much how I think if anyone is even morbidly curious [Re: xFrockx]
#14822073 - 07/25/11 12:35 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
It is subject to sluggish government control rather than a more flexible private ownership. Do you disagree with that
Yes, I think so. What govt. control? Its a fairly autonomous organization with special protections afforded by the govt. And yet, with these protections and its non-profit nature - its still cant balance the books.
Quote:
Few percent here, few percent there, it does add up. Add in grants, donations, and other ways non-profits can find themselves and there's a few more. The numbers do add up.
What numbers? You are just pulling them out of your ass. Add them up and show me. What do donations have to do with it? You are claiming that Wal-Mart would do well to seek non-profit status and start asking for donations? Again, its profit margin is only 3%. Non-profit status, if it worked as well as you claim, could only reduce the cost of your purchase by 3%. I dont think it would work as well as you claim. I think that a non-profit walmart would end up costing more. 3% isnt much of a fee for getting all the benefits that a drive for profit gets you.
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xFrockx
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,458
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 14 hours, 44 minutes
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Re: Pretty much how I think if anyone is even morbidly curious [Re: DieCommie]
#14822121 - 07/25/11 12:49 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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"You are just pulling them out of your ass."Add them up and show me."
They don't even exist to be added up. All I can do is estimate, but not from "my ass". How much of a difference is determined by a number of certain factors, such as how much is saved through having lower executive pay, how much is saved from tax-free status, how much is made through grants and donations, and how much is lost or gained through a lack of or increase in motivation. I am not so sure that people would be less motivated for a company dedicated to being a benevolent force in the world to its employees and communities. Would you? And don't say that there is no guarantee it would be benevolent because that is another self-regulating system. The most benevolent non-profits would receive the highest donations and the most grant money. (or at least the ones that appear most benevolent, it isn't that easy to fake it but some non-profits get away with it, scandals regulate that though)
"What do donations have to do with it?"
Non-profits can solicit donations by showing that they are beneficial to people. For-profits don't really ask for donations, do they? This is another difference. I suppose you'll say "But who will donate to a non-profit grocery that offers lower prices, work-for-food, and educational programs to communities in need?"
"You are claiming that Wal-Mart would do well to seek non-profit status and start asking for donations?"
How many people would donate to Wal-Mart seeing the effect that they have on the world? Would you donate to Wal-Mart if the only thing different about it is that it were non-profit? If you shop there, you kind of do. You donate some percentage of your purchase to those who share the profit, at least. According to you, 3%. Might not seem like much to you, but I wouldn't mind paying 3% less every time I went to the store. I might not have as much money as you though.
"I think that a non-profit walmart would end up costing more."
Wal-Mart isn't so cheap because they are innovators, all they do is buy in massive quantities. Their prices are so low because they negotiate with the strongest hand. At first it will be difficult to beat their prices but Aldi does with a smaller supply chain so it isn't impossible.
"3% isnt much of a fee for getting all the benefits that a drive for profit gets you."
How many times in your life have you been happy working at a job solely for the money? I guess it's possible, but job performance is tied to a lot more than pay. I've done research on it, everything from job security to how often people are paid are related to job performance.
Edited by xFrockx (07/25/11 01:56 PM)
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Pretty much how I think if anyone is even morbidly curious [Re: xFrockx]
#14822144 - 07/25/11 12:56 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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and so if another store's prices were lower, even if it was by, say 10%, other stores won't be able to lower their prices to compete.
This isn't true where I live. I worked for almost 20 years in a grocery store and our prices were at least 10% higher in general than our competition. Yet we thrived due to how we marketed ourselves. The rich preferred our nice fancy story to the budget ones. In fact we were and still are the one of the most profitable stores (based on retail sales per sq. ft) in the US.
--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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xFrockx
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,458
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 14 hours, 44 minutes
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Re: Pretty much how I think if anyone is even morbidly curious [Re: Icelander]
#14822237 - 07/25/11 01:15 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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"I worked for almost 20 years in a grocery store and our prices were at least 10% higher in general than our competition. Yet we thrived due to how we marketed ourselves. The rich preferred our nice fancy story to the budget ones. In fact we were and still are the one of the most profitable stores (based on retail sales per sq. ft) in the US."
Market and Marketing. If the store was in an area that couldn't support those prices, then the store would have went out of business. Stores could be tailored for the area they're in. Some could be like yours, even. Others could be like an Aldi, or anything. Most for-profit grocery companies do this already. Different areas get different selection and different marketing based on median income, local culture, etc.
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