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Shop: Myyco.com Golden Teacher Liquid Culture For Sale   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: Julian Assange, rape, sexual molestation and illegal use of force. Go figure [Re: Nexius]
    #13514353 -

Shooting the messenger. That's what people on the right side of history always courageously do.

In other news, 92% of Afghans aren't aware of the 9/11 attacks and don't know why we are bombing and occupying their country.

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Re: Julian Assange, rape, sexual molestation and illegal use of force. Go figure [Re: Seuss]
    #13514397 -

Seuss said:
> Could you explain more specifically why you say he's barely rational?

There are several online chat logs with him posted on the net.  They are easy to find with google.  I have to agree with Zappa... if the chat logs are accurate, then he is losing it.  I'm not an expert, but to me it sounds like he has delusions of grandeur coupled with an unhealthy dose of paranoia.



The logs I read in a wired article, per your suggestion, don't seem to suggest he's losing it, to me.

Seems he demands a particular level or respect from folks and is trying to pass off the criminal matters as political persecution.  Doesn't seem anywhere need someone loosing touch with reality.

I don't know how wikileaks is structured or the relations of the folks inolved, so hard for me to know if he's being an asshole or not, but I'd certainly agree he seemed silly in those log portions I've seen.

As for the mental health things, how is any of this pathological?  It doesn't seem unwarranted to feel oppressed and plotted against in his situation- he is.  That he thinks or claims the criminal matters may be motivated by political desires doesn't seem that baseless, regardles of whether its a reasonable belief.

Further, the delusions of grandeur don't seem delusionary to me.  He is mentioned and discussed widely.  He may be an arrogant ass, but for it to be a delusional belief it must be based unrealistic belief of no reasonable basis, which in this case doesn't seem to be the case.

Quote:
> Anyways, he's alleged the talked-of 'exodus' of wikileaks volunteers is a farce constructed our of sour grapes by one ex-volunteer who actually did quit.

Again, if the chat logs with him are accurate, this is obviously not the case.


hmm, are we talking about the same chat then?

what i read was him bitching at a guy who thought he was being stupid and accusing him of leaking information to the media.  The guy claims various people agree he's handling the matter badly, but doesn't make factual allegations other than others would agree he should not be the public face of wikileaks especially while the criminal matters are an issue.

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Re: Julian Assange, rape, sexual molestation and illegal use of force. Go figure [Re: johnm214]
    #13514970 -

Julian Assange didn't leak the info (an insider did) and he doesn't even run the site. His "international man of mystery" routine is pure vanity.

Sad how such a huge story can devolve into a kabuki show about whether some guy who doesn't even matter is or is not a perv/nutcase.


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BEST TEAM IN THE UNIVERSE

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Re: Julian Assange, rape, sexual molestation and illegal use of force. Go figure [Re: jimbotron]
    #13519851 -

I wouldn't worry about it, it is entirely plausible that he did do it and it is entirely plausible that is it a plot originated by the collusion of some government organizations. Before the leak of the war docs an official memo leaked from within the US government somewhere (I can't recall) had claimed that they should look toward using some of their allies to discredit Assange and his organization.

IMO wikileaks won't have to worry unless he gives away secrets in exchange for a plea, he is not much more than a media face of the organization. Frankly he's probibly gotten all the PR boost the organization can use from a media face and they should consider not using one for a while after.

Also, though the US MSM may make it sound like they did not give the US any ability to interject in some of the leaked information that may be of a secure nature. They did, there was warning through a third party, a US MSM organization before even the first leak. Wikileaks had given warning before the other papers were leaked and all the pentagon or whoever needed to do is contact them and say we want this information redacted. They didn't even try once. For this reason I doubt this information is pertinent to US security as many officials seem to try to make it sound.


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"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

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Re: Julian Assange, rape, sexual molestation and illegal use of force. Go figure [Re: ScavengerType]
    #13519912 -

ScavengerType said:
I wouldn't worry about it, it is entirely plausible that he did do it and it is entirely plausible that is it a plot originated by the collusion of some government organizations.


The decision to seek extradition and pursue the matter, bring charges where otherwise they might not have been: sure, I could see that.  The formulation of the matter itself:  I see no reason to suspect this is a reasonable thing to speculate of.


Quote:
Before the leak of the war docs an official memo leaked from within the US government somewhere (I can't recall) had claimed that they should look toward using some of their allies to discredit Assange and his organization.


Yeah, I believe the proposed plan was to leak fictitious documents that would discredit the organization.  Not a bad plan at all.

Quote:
he is not much more than a media face of the organization.


Source?  I've seen nothing suggesting this is so besides conclusory allegations from wikileaks-affiliated parties.


Quote:
Also, though the US MSM may make it sound like they did not give the US any ability to interject in some of the leaked information that may be of a secure nature. They did


I haven't heard this alleged. The relevant parties seem to admit having foreknowledge and even having particular documents ahead of the general release.

,
Quote:
there was warning through a third party, a US MSM organization before even the first leak. Wikileaks had given warning before the other papers were leaked and all the pentagon or whoever needed to do is contact them and say we want this information redacted.


My understanding is that while the papers did get the information ahead of time, they charecterize the exchange as not at all for the purpose of allowing redaction, and one has specifically chriticsized that suggestion as a distortion.

Frankly, the matter is too muddled in even the best light to presume this was done responsibly, in my eyes.  I think wikileaks should have made a publicly-known disclosure to the pentagon prior to the general release, and invited suggested redactions with reasoning, and provided a workable timeframe on the order of weeks for the redactions to be submitted, followed by a proposed final release and another invitation for the allies to indicate particularly sensitive information not in the public interest to disclose.

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Re: Julian Assange, rape, sexual molestation and illegal use of force. Go figure [Re: johnm214]
    #13520626 -

The use of leaking incorrect information was just an example. The objective was to discredit the organization or specifically as mentioned by name Julian Assange. The document mentioned using outside contacts to achieve these goals. These could be a multitude of sources, spies or contacts of the US or of a co-operative foreign partner or even friendly private sector organizations. Don't be so skeptical, it is not like intelligence agencies have never put an enemy up on trumped up charges to silence them before.

I should not have said he was not much more than a media face. In reality I meant that his primary current role in the organization has been PR management and that he can be replaced. In reality since he is co-founder he is probibly one of the main administrative persons in the organization and the impact of (the implications of) his imprisonment as well as his absence could probibly be noticeable.

As you said the government had foreknowledge, and the subsequent leaks gave them more than enough time to act. The claim by wikileaks was that they had their US media contact (whatever agency they pre-released to) contact the US government for them to ask if they wanted any portions redacted. I'm pressed for time so I can't find you the source for this (but it was from a democracy now interview of JA). Later that particular media organization denied this, for whatever reason and joined in with the US MSM/government's condemnation of wikileaks.

Frankly though, the pentagon and other agencies within the US government had an obligation and opportunity to redact information before it was released but didn't even try. Wikileaks made it clear that they were not interested in redacting info that made coalition forces look bad but would only redact information that put lives in jeopardy.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

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Re: Julian Assange, rape, sexual molestation and illegal use of force. Go figure [Re: ScavengerType]
    #13520704 -

> Frankly though, the pentagon and other agencies within the US government had an obligation

Hardly.  When somebody steals something, the victim of the theft does not have any obligation what-so-ever towards the thief.  Had the US Government reviewed the information and redacted bits of it, then the US Government would be giving tacit approval of the posted documents.  You are almost justifying extortion, with people's lives rather than money, being the item of value.  There is only one person (or group) that had an obligation to redact information before it was posted, and that is the person (or group) that stole the information and published it.  Any blood is squarely on their hands.


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Just another spore in the wind.

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Re: Julian Assange, rape, sexual molestation and illegal use of force. Go figure [Re: Seuss]
    #13521122 -

LOL

Everything has to have 'sources' because you guys crack me up.


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Light travels faster than sound, which is why some people appear bright, until you hear them speak

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Re: Julian Assange, rape, sexual molestation and illegal use of force. Go figure [Re: Seuss]
    #13521140 -

If this was a fucking 7-11 maybe I'd agree with you, but it's not, it's an intelligence organization and if it can prevent loss of life and doesn't it is responsible... period. People need to have bigger expectations of intelligence/government officials than they do of 7-11 managers.

It's possibly a non-issue anyway since most of the information is so out of date as to be relatively useless for intelligence purposes of Afgan or Iraq resistance groups.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

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Re: Julian Assange, rape, sexual molestation and illegal use of force. Go figure [Re: ScavengerType]
    #13521218 -

> People need to have bigger expectations of intelligence/government officials than they do of 7-11 managers.

Don't blame the government, blame the fucktard that is publishing the data without taking the time to redact information that could cost lives.  It is the thief that is publishing the data that is responsible.  As I said before, your position is basically extortion... "clean up the data that I stole before I publish it, or if people die it will be your fault, not mine."


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Just another spore in the wind.

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Re: Julian Assange, rape, sexual molestation and illegal use of force. Go figure [Re: ScavengerType]
    #13521338 -

Seuss said:
> People need to have bigger expectations of intelligence/government officials than they do of 7-11 managers.

Don't blame the government, blame the fucktard that is publishing the data without taking the time to redact information that could cost lives.  It is the thief that is publishing the data that is responsible.  As I said before, your position is basically extortion... "clean up the data that I stole before I publish it, or if people die it will be your fault, not mine."


Regardless of how stupidly the matter was handled or what kind of bullshit he's trying to claim, he certainly doesn't seem a theif in any way.  He just got some info and published it- totally legal, at least in the US. (barring the issue of inducement)


ScavengerType said:
As you said the government had foreknowledge, and the subsequent leaks gave them more than enough time to act.


I didn't say they knew everything that was going to be disclosed, which is the relevant information that is needed to make redactions.

Additionally, I think its clear the government didn't know what was going to be disclosed, even if we assume they'd beleive wikileaks, which obviously they wouldn't and shouldn't.

Quote:
The claim by wikileaks was that they had their US media contact (whatever agency they pre-released to) contact the US government for them to ask if they wanted any portions redacted. I'm pressed for time so I can't find you the source for this (but it was from a democracy now interview of JA). Later that particular media organization denied this, for whatever reason and joined in with the US MSM/government's condemnation of wikileaks.


Yeah, and this was a conclusory claim which would be easily established true and yet has not been.  The responsible thing to do would have been to contact the allies directly and demand suggested redactions following a particular protocol.  Given that there's no evidence the media contact agreed to be their agent, even if we should believe the post-hoc statements by Assange now that he's come under fire for his conduct, there still isn't any reason to believe the chance was given to the govenrment or that such was attempted in a reasonable matter.


ScavengerType said:
If this was a fucking 7-11 maybe I'd agree with you, but it's not, it's an intelligence organization and if it can prevent loss of life and doesn't it is responsible... period. People need to have bigger expectations of intelligence/government officials than they do of 7-11 managers.

It's possibly a non-issue anyway since most of the information is so out of date as to be relatively useless for intelligence purposes of Afgan or Iraq resistance groups.



How is an intelligence agency or anyone responsible for the acts of a third party even presuming they had the ability to prevent such?  Even granting, arguendo, this situation it does not follow.

What does the out-of-dateness of the data have to do with whether the risk is mooted?  What info do you have that it is out of date and what does this mean?

The example that seems most concerning to me and that's been mentioned in the media is the mentioning of those who cooperate with the coalition and the government.  Not that I'd trust the government to not fuck me over anyways, but for those Afghans who didn't know the US's trackrecord on honoring confidentiality agreements and taking reasonable steps to protect sources, the disclosure could certainly be harmful regardless of when it occurs- so long as an insurgency and vindictive religious nutters still roam around.

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Re: Julian Assange, rape, sexual molestation and illegal use of force. Go figure [Re: johnm214]
    #13522572 -

> he certainly doesn't seem a theif in any way.

What do you call somebody that knowingly accepts stolen goods for profit?  I call them a thief.


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Just another spore in the wind.

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Re: Julian Assange, rape, sexual molestation and illegal use of force. Go figure [Re: Seuss]
    #13522826 -

And what profit are you talking about here? What little knowledge I have about wikileaks is that they are not making any profit from the things they "stole"? And that stolen things were given to them by former military personnel, which were not part of wikileaks in the first place. I mean, its not the golden bricks we are talking about here. That info is about ppl that died, as their death was kept secret. If anything, this could be an example of the things we do not want to see in the future. And if reviling of these documents should cost any more lives, which I doubt, except these guys which sacrificed them self to make this info available, who is to blame? The so called thief, which reveal secrets, or the guys which created these 'secrets' in the first place.


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Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music. - Nietzsche

I've never faked a sarcasm in my life. True story.

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Re: Julian Assange, rape, sexual molestation and illegal use of force. Go figure [Re: ivander]
    #13522858 -

> What little knowledge I have about wikileaks is that they are not making any profit from the things

Yes they are.  They sell early access to the data to MSM.

> And that stolen things were given to them by former military personnel, which were not part of wikileaks in the first place.

Exactly, trafficking in stolen goods.  Even if they are not making a profit, they are still knowingly accepting stolen goods.

> who is to blame? The so called thief, which reveal secrets, or the guys which created these 'secrets' in the first place.

The person publishing is the one to blame.  This isn't a difficult concept to grasp.  If I publish a poster offering a million dollars to the first person that kills your mother, who is to blame?  Me for publishing the poster, or your mother for having you as a child?  Had wikileaks been responsible and redacted information that places people in danger, then I wouldn't be upset with them.


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Just another spore in the wind.

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Re: Julian Assange, rape, sexual molestation and illegal use of force. Go figure [Re: Seuss]
    #13522915 -

Yes, easy concept to grasp, but I think you got it the other way around. I dont realize who is in danger, care to explain? I realize that the guys who provided wikileaks with info are in custody now, suffering in whatever way. But it seems to me they did it out of their own free will.
To use your example... mother is already killed, but that is kept secret. And once the secret is revealed, I dont see how would anybody beside the killer be in danger.


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Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music. - Nietzsche

I've never faked a sarcasm in my life. True story.

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Re: Julian Assange, rape, sexual molestation and illegal use of force. Go figure [Re: ivander]
    #13523231 -

> I dont realize who is in danger, care to explain?

The various civilians in Afghanistan and Iraq, mentioned by name and location in the documents, that have worked with the US to help find the Taliban and various insurgent groups members.  All wikileaks had to do is remove their names and their locations from the documents... but no, the fame and glory of making the US look bad was much more important than a few lives.  When wikileaks started, I actually respected what they were doing.  It is unfortunate that they, or more appropriately Assange, turned into a fame slut.


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Just another spore in the wind.

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Re: Julian Assange, rape, sexual molestation and illegal use of force. Go figure [Re: Seuss]
    #13523301 -

So you think Talibans will now get those people for revenge or something? OK, I see where you stand now. You should realize that those same people were aware of risks, and are possibly risking their lives day to day, doing whatever they are doing. If they were so innocent they would not be in a position they are now. Dont get me wrong. I consider human life to be top 1 priority whatever the case. But not everybody agrees with me. US generals certainly not. Those same people who take civilian casualties into consideration as numbers and reasonable percents.
Again I cant see how Assange can be responsible for that people. They either choose, by their past actions, to get on that list, or they were forced to. Either way my opinion is that messenger can not be guilty for message hes carrying. Now if he really did raped these women, that would be hes personal crime, and hes conviction would not undo all work he did. Beside, there is still many many documents, which wikileaks determined not to disclose for security reasons. I can say Im sure they are not doing so cuz they do not expect that it would endanger innocent people.


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Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music. - Nietzsche

I've never faked a sarcasm in my life. True story.

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Re: Julian Assange, rape, sexual molestation and illegal use of force. Go figure [Re: ivander]
    #13523411 -

> Either way my opinion is that messenger can not be guilty for message hes carrying.

So if I hack into a bank and steal your bank account and post it to the Nigerian Brotherhood, it isn't my fault that you get robbed blind... I'm just the messenger?

Better yet, the people that post the 'hit lists' for abortion doctors, including their address, phone number, work schedule, etc... when a nutjob goes and murders the abortion doctor, the person posting the information is an innocent messenger and should not be held accountable for enabling the person that committed the murder?


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Just another spore in the wind.

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Re: Julian Assange, rape, sexual molestation and illegal use of force. Go figure [Re: Seuss]
    #13523682 -

Kind of like the orphan donation scam seuss?


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Light travels faster than sound, which is why some people appear bright, until you hear them speak

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Re: Julian Assange, rape, sexual molestation and illegal use of force. Go figure [Re: Seuss]
    #13523844 -

I dont see how these examples reflect what the wikileaks are doing.
If you hack my acc. Its you fault. The messenger would be the guy how knocks at my door and say 'you are fu/hacked, and persons involved are the hacker, brotherhood and few other(some would suppose) innocent people'.
Nutjob does not need list to do a random murder, that list has its purpose. Hes not messenger either. Certanly he did not wake up that day with thought, I hope that some psycho will read the list i will write today and go kill someone.
If that is the case, we would be able to blame anyone for anything. And I dont see wikileaks to be irresponsible bunch.


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Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music. - Nietzsche

I've never faked a sarcasm in my life. True story.

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