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carbonhoots
old hand
Registered: 09/11/01
Posts: 1,351
Loc: BC Canada
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Re: Thousands Raped in Congo. [Re: Prosgeopax]
#3884305 - 03/07/05 08:00 PM (19 years, 26 days ago) |
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Quote:
I can understand how freedom from oppression would benefit these people but can you explain how democracy would help them? What if the people doing the oppressing are in the majority?
Maybe the USA should dispatch a polling firm before invasion?
Are you suggesting that the majority of the Congo might support gang raping three year olds to the point of death and homo-sexually raping boys?
Surely your not.
-------------------- -I'd rather have a frontal lobotomy than a bottle in front of me CANADIAN CENTER FOR POLICY ALTERNATIVES
Edited by carbonhoots (03/07/05 08:02 PM)
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Psychoactive1984
PositiveCynicist
Registered: 02/06/05
Posts: 3,546
Loc: California, Monterey Coun...
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Re: Thousands Raped in Congo. [Re: carbonhoots]
#3884372 - 03/07/05 08:12 PM (19 years, 26 days ago) |
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lonestar2004 said: THOUSANDS RAPED IN CONGO!
but we are talking about....
USA fault
USA raping the middle east
Democracy Sucks
Bush Lies
Oil
Jesus
Well... do you propose that they solve their dilemma themselves? Or should we talk of the powers that be (primarily the UN due to it being established to help the countries of the world) that can stop and choose not to due to no direct benefit? Also, in consideration of our troops going to other foreign countries and comitting crimes equally as heinous, aren't we partially to blame by setting the example so to speak? (Chimp-Heirarchy so to speak: the one at the top of the pecking order is revered for their actions, and what they do is copied, and they set the example so to speak [apply that notion of a heirarchy on a small scale to an international one, and you'll get what I'm saying])
Polling firm Nah, the issue shouldn't be decided on whether if war is in good taste or not... because IMO war is never in good taste, it's only a mechanism to be used as a last resort... And should be used to the extent that it isn't causing more harm then good, whereas a poll would more often the not have most be passive, instead of fighting for what is right.
-------------------- "Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi "We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin "Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers." -It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall. -Substance over Style. -Common sense is uncommon.
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lonestar2004
Live to party,work to affordit.
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blaming the U.S. and Bush is wrong. for many, many, many, many, years (? not sure how many) we have spent Billions of dollars on Africa.
how about some fresh ideas?
-------------------- America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure" We have "reckless fiscal policies" America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better Barack Obama
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Prosgeopax
Jaded, yethopeful?
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Re: Thousands Raped in Congo. [Re: carbonhoots]
#3884476 - 03/07/05 08:37 PM (19 years, 26 days ago) |
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carbonhoots said: 1) The USA, through it's President, constantly espouses it's intentions to spread democracy in the world as a means of spreading freedom and justice. Regardless of it's direct benefit to the USA.
So, why isn't Canada stepping up to the plate? Why isn't France? News flash: the U.S. government's first duty is to it's citizens.
Quote:
2) The president and the USA in general claim to be Christian. Jesus commands that we give without expecting repayment.
The government gives NOTHING without first taking from others. This is not what Jesus was talking about. Did Jesus command his followers to break the eighth commandment in order to give to others? I don't think so.
Quote:
If the USA's actions were consistent with it's words, it would intervene to stop the madness of 10,000 rapes.
If US POLITICIANS' actions were consistent with their words... more than the Congo would be different.
-------------------- Money doesn't grow on trees, but deficits do grow under Bushes. You can accept, reject, or examine and test any new idea that comes to you. The wise man chooses the third way. - Tom Willhite Disclaimer: I reserve the right to change my opinions should I become aware of additional facts, the falsification of information or different perspectives. Articles written by others which I post may not necessarily reflect my opinions in part or in whole, my opinions may be in direct opposition, the topic may be one on which I have yet to formulate an opinion or have doubts about, an article may be posted solely with the intent to stimulate discussion or contemplation.
Edited by Prosgeopax (03/07/05 08:53 PM)
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Psychoactive1984
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Re: Thousands Raped in Congo. [Re: lonestar2004]
#3884491 - 03/07/05 08:42 PM (19 years, 26 days ago) |
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lonestar2004 said: blaming the U.S. and Bush is wrong. for many, many, many, many, years (? not sure how many) we have spent Billions of dollars on Africa.
how about some fresh ideas?
I'm not suggesting it's just the US's problem or Bush is at Fault entirely... but really, just goes to show you how faithful he is to his word in regards to his principles... or the lack thereof, and we as US citizens are to the beliefs that still supposedly exist regarding liberties, and the spreading of them are.
hrrrmmm Fresh Ideas, Dunno about those , have a few older ones: 1) Give the UN power to directly override wars that can be avoided and are perpetuatued on falsehoods. 2) Instead of tossing "billions of dollars on Africa"... how about we actually put the money to use... throwing money at an issue seems the easiest way to solve things. TBH, I don't think it really solves much. 3) How about we give African countries "Democracy" without sticking our nose into it? 4) How about instead of wasting money on that which can't be stopped we relax our stance on drugs for a bit... and um, put all that extra capital to work in a way that is beneficial. Put that capital into something that can be readily prevented... as the drug war, and the effects of it, don't seem to be going away (unless we want to play with statistics). (Very general, nothing new, nothing fresh, just a few old ones that won't ever be implemented due to selfish motivations)
Quote:
Prosgeopax said: If US POLITICIANS' actions were consistent with their words... more than the Congo would be different.
-------------------- "Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi "We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin "Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers." -It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall. -Substance over Style. -Common sense is uncommon.
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Prosgeopax
Jaded, yethopeful?
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Re: Thousands Raped in Congo. [Re: carbonhoots]
#3884556 - 03/07/05 08:50 PM (19 years, 26 days ago) |
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carbonhoots said: Maybe the USA should dispatch a polling firm before invasion?
Maybe you should answer the question. Can you explain how democracy would help them?
Quote:
Are you suggesting that the majority of the Congo might support gang raping three year olds to the point of death and homo-sexually raping boys?
Here is the question again... What if the people doing the oppressing are in the majority? Do you realize that history is full of examples of majorities suppressing and wiping out minorities (using various barbaric methods)? Have you ever heard the terms 'genocide' or 'ethnic cleansing' or 'religious persecution' or 'terrorizing the enemy'? Can you explain how democracy would stop such things if the persecuted are in the minority and there is great animosity between the groups involved?
-------------------- Money doesn't grow on trees, but deficits do grow under Bushes. You can accept, reject, or examine and test any new idea that comes to you. The wise man chooses the third way. - Tom Willhite Disclaimer: I reserve the right to change my opinions should I become aware of additional facts, the falsification of information or different perspectives. Articles written by others which I post may not necessarily reflect my opinions in part or in whole, my opinions may be in direct opposition, the topic may be one on which I have yet to formulate an opinion or have doubts about, an article may be posted solely with the intent to stimulate discussion or contemplation.
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Psychoactive1984
PositiveCynicist
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Re: Thousands Raped in Congo. [Re: Prosgeopax]
#3884600 - 03/07/05 08:58 PM (19 years, 26 days ago) |
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Prosgeopax said: Here is the question again... What if the people doing the oppressing are in the majority? Do you realize that history is full of examples of majorities suppressing and wiping out minorities (using various barbaric methods)? Have you ever heard the terms 'genocide' or 'ethnic cleansing' or 'religious persecution' or 'terrorizing the enemy'? Can you explain how democracy would stop such things if the persecuted are in the minority and there is great animosity between the groups involved?
Clock Work Orange em'.
-------------------- "Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi "We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin "Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers." -It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall. -Substance over Style. -Common sense is uncommon.
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Prosgeopax
Jaded, yethopeful?
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We should try that with the Neo-Jacobians (aka:neo-cons).
-------------------- Money doesn't grow on trees, but deficits do grow under Bushes. You can accept, reject, or examine and test any new idea that comes to you. The wise man chooses the third way. - Tom Willhite Disclaimer: I reserve the right to change my opinions should I become aware of additional facts, the falsification of information or different perspectives. Articles written by others which I post may not necessarily reflect my opinions in part or in whole, my opinions may be in direct opposition, the topic may be one on which I have yet to formulate an opinion or have doubts about, an article may be posted solely with the intent to stimulate discussion or contemplation.
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Psychoactive1984
PositiveCynicist
Registered: 02/06/05
Posts: 3,546
Loc: California, Monterey Coun...
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Re: Thousands Raped in Congo. [Re: Prosgeopax]
#3884616 - 03/07/05 09:01 PM (19 years, 26 days ago) |
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-------------------- "Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi "We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin "Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers." -It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall. -Substance over Style. -Common sense is uncommon.
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kosmic_charlie
Truckin' in style
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News like this makes me sick. Rape is the worst crime anyone could commit.
-------------------- Goin' where the water tastes like wine.
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DieCommie
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: Thousands Raped in Congo. [Re: Prosgeopax]
#3884706 - 03/07/05 09:14 PM (19 years, 26 days ago) |
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Quote:
Prosgeopax said: Can you explain how democracy would stop such things if the persecuted are in the minority and there is great animosity between the groups involved?
This is why constitutional republic owns true democracy
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Psychoactive1984
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Re: Thousands Raped in Congo. [Re: DieCommie]
#3885096 - 03/07/05 10:17 PM (19 years, 26 days ago) |
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DieCommie said:
Quote:
Prosgeopax said: Can you explain how democracy would stop such things if the persecuted are in the minority and there is great animosity between the groups involved?
This is why constitutional republic owns true democracy
True Deomcracy is utter chaos. Beyond that, as long as certain rules are adhered, ain't a damn thing wrong with a constitutional Republic.
-------------------- "Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi "We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin "Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers." -It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall. -Substance over Style. -Common sense is uncommon.
Edited by Psychoactive1984 (03/07/05 11:06 PM)
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RandalFlagg
Stranger
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Re: Thousands Raped in Congo. [Re: carbonhoots]
#3885103 - 03/07/05 10:19 PM (19 years, 26 days ago) |
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1) The USA, through it's President, constantly espouses it's intentions to spread democracy in the world as a means of spreading freedom and justice. Regardless of it's direct benefit to the USA.
Governments all over the world espouse all kinds of shit. When it comes down to it, 99.9% of the time governments do what is in their best interest....not what is in the best interest of "democracy". The U.S. federal government gives money to blatant dictatorships(Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Kuwait, etc...). Politicians can't admit the obvious though.
If I was President, you would a see a level of honesty unparalleled in politics. I would flat out admit the reason that we have given money and weapons to the Saudi royal family. I would say, "We want stability on top of all of that oil so that it continues to be pumped and brought to market. That is why we give the Saudi Royal family money." Man...if I was in charge, things would be a lot different. I just wouldn't give a fuck about what other people thought.
2) The president and the USA in general claim to be Christian. Jesus commands that we give without expecting repayment.
The President is a politician before a Christian.
If the USA's actions were consistent with it's words, it would intervene to stop the madness of 10,000 rapes.
Why isn't Canada or Europe doing anything? Because this whole situation is a mess. Why the hell would a country risk troops and money to intervene in something that is a terrible mess and that has no benefit?
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Psychoactive1984
PositiveCynicist
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Re: Thousands Raped in Congo. [Re: RandalFlagg]
#3885116 - 03/07/05 10:24 PM (19 years, 26 days ago) |
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RandalFlagg said:
If the USA's actions were consistent with it's words, it would intervene to stop the madness of 10,000 rapes.
Why isn't Canada or Europe doing anything? Because this whole situation is a mess. Why the hell would a country risk troops and money to intervene in something that is a terrible mess and that has no benefit?
Beyond the whole USA vs. the world deal. The issue at heart isn't one of which country should indeed be offering any form of help. But the reason why they don't help... If everything was run and determined by money... the world sure would be a shitty place to live in.
Wait. It is
It needs to be thought of not what direct benefit we gain, or in terms of financial considerations. But what can we offer to another country? Would you want a similar country, or for that matter a power that has the ability to directly influence your surroundings to allow you to wallow in suffering regardless of their ability to offer aid? This is the corenerstone of logic that leaves the world in such a "fucked" disposition.
-------------------- "Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi "We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin "Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers." -It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall. -Substance over Style. -Common sense is uncommon.
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RandalFlagg
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1) Give the UN power to directly override wars that can be avoided and are perpetuatued on falsehoods.
World government doesn't and will never work.
The UN is a toothless, worthless, corrupt, and feckless organization. Look at how countries defy everything from resolutions to international "UN" law to UN guidelines. The UN is a joke. Most countries don't pay attention to it if they can get away with something.
2) Instead of tossing "billions of dollars on Africa"... how about we actually put the money to use...
Africa is a mess. It has always been a mess. It probably always will be a mess. There is no point or benefit in getting involved in that shithole.
3) How about we give African countries "Democracy" without sticking our nose into it?
Democracy arises because an educated, informed, and progressive population strives for it and wants it. Africa doesn't have these prerequisites.
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RandalFlagg
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Beyond the whole USA vs. the world deal. The issue at heart isn't one of which country should indeed be offering any form of help. But the reason why they don't help...
Why wouldn't anybody help? Because there is no incentive. Taking care of a mess like this would mean having your own troops die, spending a lot of money, and being mired in a tribal war. Who wants to get involved in a mess like that if there is no benefit?
It needs to be thought of not what direct benefit we gain, or in terms of financial considerations. But what can we offer to another country?
The U.S. is broke. We are deeply in debt. We are not going to try to save the world. We can't afford it.
Would you want a similar country, or for that matter a power that has the ability to directly influence your surroundings to allow you to wallow in suffering regardless of their ability to offer aid?
It isn't our business. The Middle East is our business.
I should also mention that the U.S. government and the U.S. citizenry give massive amounts of humanitarian and charity aid to the rest of the world.
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Psychoactive1984
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Re: Thousands Raped in Congo. [Re: RandalFlagg]
#3885167 - 03/07/05 10:40 PM (19 years, 26 days ago) |
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I hear you, and more then agree with you on 1 and 3.
1) World government doesn't work due to the fact that countries are less then willing to give up some of their power for the benefit of others. It won't work as long as we all continue to talk about how it doesn't work, and further don't attempt to implement it to any degree. For now, It's a colleciton of figurehead/ambassadors, shooting the shit, talking about issues, and wallowing around with their thumbs up their asses, rather then collectively working together and pooling resources. 2) Africa is a mess because of this mentality. Call a small little child born in a ghetto helpless, and affirm that every day, and what hope do you think they will have of growing up to be better then their inherent surroundings? (Essentially, you're suggesting that Africa as a whole is that little kid in the Ghetto )
3) Help them with the necessary prerequesites.
Dunno, dwelling on an issue and why it can't be done ultimately doesn't solve shit; It is better to think in terms of solutions rather then obstacles.
Edit: (addressing the post after)
Well, damn. Further concerning not helping people to any degree, what of social security? Sure their are a lot of those that are parasitical in nature (in regards to abusing the system), but that isn't the point. The government aids the people to the extent possible irregardless of the direct financial considerations to the degree it is able to. Sure, social security is screwed up, and will continue to be for some time, but that isn't the reason why we are in debt. The reason for our debt is based on our lavicious (sp?) spending, and our disproportional funding of war instead of social programs (which society could benefit more from).
The US shouldn't be the sole factor, nor should the salvation of the world lie on its shoulders. Why other countries, including those that need and require outside help, need to establish a UN with the balls (so to speak) to take care of this shit. Dunno, as for now, I've more inclination to think that the local PTA is a better source of governance (at least they act and attempt to rectify situations to the best of their ability).
America's business is the Middle East: Just my point. Our "business" is the middle east. As long as we establish our motivations for offering aid in these terms, shit is going to remain the same. Case in point: our business, shouldn't be in business, a Government is good ot the degree that its infrastructure serves the purpose that it was designed for; A government is designed for people, to help people have a meaningful coexistances, not to profit.
As far as charity goes... You have bums in your areas? Do you see how they squander what is called "charity" on substances which don't help their problem? Same deal with charities. Money is only valuable to the extent that it is applied to help a situation, not to the extent it is given.
-------------------- "Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi "We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin "Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers." -It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall. -Substance over Style. -Common sense is uncommon.
Edited by Psychoactive1984 (03/07/05 11:07 PM)
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RandalFlagg
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1) World government doesn't work due to the fact that countries are less then willing to give up some of their power for the benefit of others. It won't work as long as we all continue to talk about how it doesn't work
Human beings are too different, fickle, selfish, hostile, and greedy to implement a worldwide group of governmental standards.
2) Africa is a mess because of this mentality.
Africa is a mess because the people who rule the countries in Africa are corrupt and inept. Throw in a bunch of tribes with classic enmities towards each other and you have a bad situation. Africa is a mess because of the people in Africa....not because of anybody else.
3) Help them with the necessary prerequesites.
And what are these prerequisites? Who should have to pay for them? What if all of that money(like most foreign aid) goes down the shitter and is stolen by officials or improperly spent? You can throw money and things at a group of people all day long, but if they can't get their shit together then it is a lost cause.
Dunno, dwelling on an issue and why it can't be done ultimately doesn't solve shit; It is better to think in terms of solutions rather then obstacles.
Attempting to solve all of the problems of the world is fruitless. If those people are going to pull themselves out of barbarity and chaos....they need to do it themselves.
The reason for our debt is based on our lavicious (sp?) spending,
True.
and our disproportional funding of war instead of social programs (which society could benefit more from).
Wrong. The U.S. federal government spends far more on social programs than on the defense and war budget.
A government is designed for people, to help people have a meaningful coexistances, not to profit.
I don't understand what you mean by this statement. The U.S. federal government sure as hell is not profiting right now. It is deeply in debt and continues to borrow more money. The Iraq war is costing the federal government a lot of money. The U.S. is not making any money off of Iraq.
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Psychoactive1984
PositiveCynicist
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Loc: California, Monterey Coun...
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Re: Thousands Raped in Congo. [Re: RandalFlagg]
#3885306 - 03/07/05 11:31 PM (19 years, 26 days ago) |
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1) Then we shouldn't be interfering in another countries political practices at all now should we? Under that logic, let's deband the whole UN, not have commerce to any degree, let's all live like Japan did in a state of Isolation (forget the time period) because humans are what we are... Or is that just because you accept that without attempting to change that notion? We may be animals, that doesn't require us to act like it. (You and I are comming from a very different stance, yet we are openly communicating our views.... how is it that you deem that others are incapable of solving differences through communication?)
2)The same can be suggested of the Middle East but....
3) Direct public accounting of funds. Beyond that, I know of know way to account for prevention of corruption (re: impossible). Same goes with the prison system, lock all those up that can't seem to help themselves, as well as those that have no direction. Sorry RandalFlagg but you sure are living in a different reality then one I'd even attempt to live in. So... what are you getting at, let people pretty much rot, get raped, murdered, robbed, etc... to the degree that they don't defend themselves? Sorry, anarchy is unrealistic in terms of it's consequences.
Dunno, dwelling on an issue and why it can't be done ultimately doesn't solve shit; It is better to think in terms of solutions rather then obstacles.
Attempting to solve all of the problems of the world is fruitless. If those people are going to pull themselves out of barbarity and chaos....they need to do it themselves.
Well, under that same frame of mind why is the business of the middle east our business then? Oh wait, I think we know why
A government is designed for people, to help people have a meaningful coexistances, not to profit.
I don't understand what you mean by this statement. The U.S. federal government sure as hell is not profiting right now. It is deeply in debt and continues to borrow more money. The Iraq war is costing the federal government a lot of money. The U.S. is not making any money off of Iraq.
Governments are great. Seriously, if you look into most of the laws, well written and meaningful. Nothing wrong with that, It's those that are in control of if that are profiting at the expense of you, and I, as well as those that could be benifiting from it. The issue isn't the funding, it's the allocation of the funding, we make enough collectively to support our whole country and several others as long as the funding is delegated properly.. (which, of course is why everything is so fucked).
and our disproportional funding of war instead of social programs (which society could benefit more from).
Wrong. The U.S. federal government spends far more on social programs than on the defense and war budget.
Yeah, not suggesting that is the sole root of it, but it really isn't helping much now is it? I suggested disproportional in terms of it's effect; social programs help, war.... just requires more funding to be allocated for more war. As far as social programs; well, a lot of them provide more of a detriment to society then an aid. E.G. our Prison system, our lack of rehabilitation (throwing and housing everyone in prisons), our stance on fighting not only 1... but now 2 wars that are impossible to win (Drug + Terrosism war). All depends on how you define what is social/war, a lot imo of it is constituted as a defense budget.
-------------------- "Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi "We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin "Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers." -It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall. -Substance over Style. -Common sense is uncommon.
Edited by Psychoactive1984 (03/07/05 11:57 PM)
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RandalFlagg
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Dammit! I just typed a long and good reply to you. Unfortunately, my browser crashed. I'm sorry, but I will not re-type it.
Edited by RandalFlagg (03/08/05 12:06 AM)
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