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 AnxietyDrive Aspiring Psychologist    Registered: 01/03/09 Posts: 472 Last seen: 11 years, 7 months |
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What's the best way to confront people: be straightforward and forthcoming, or walk on eggshells and tiptoe around their emotions?
Most people argue that there is a time and place for both. I agree, but the time for walking on eggshells happens less often than being straightforward. Most of the time, we don't approach unstable people. We approach people who we perceive as unstable, in that they're in a bad mood or they're being irrational. Seldom do we have to confront a paranoid schizophrenic. Seldom do we run the risk of being stabbed or shot or less severe: being punched. I've been in a lot of different situations with people suffering from different problems. My old habit was to treat the person as if everything is going to be alright and that they're not doing anything wrong. I learned that using this tactic causes nothing but harm...harm to the person I'm comforting, harm to myself for being less than truthful, and harm to family nearest the situation. Tiptoeing around a person can be seen as sidestepping the truth because it lacks honesty and sincerity. Nothing comes about by gently telling a person how their behaving (skipping over the truth), unless that person is an invertebrate cry-fest on feet. This logic goes with all people suffering from all kinds of illnesses, because personal responsibility and conduct isn't lessened or removed because someone has a diagnosis. They're not all of the sudden immune to criticism, especially when they're properly medicated or they can go days or weeks at a time without showing any symptoms of their illness. However, there are a handful of diseases that cannot be controlled or helped at all, which are located in the brain and have damaged the brain. In cases with these illnesses (like advanced Alzheimer's, certain types of schizophrenia, or dementia from general paresis or advanced syphilis), if the person has no control over their behavior, they should be institutionalized and properly treated according to their illness, until modern medicine discovers a cure or a miracle occurs. Being soft on people may instigate change but only very slowly. Being hard on people will likely cause people to change faster, but at the expense of intense hatred in the moment. Some people say that telling people what they want to hear helps situations. My experience has been this: every time I've told people what they want to hear it has made me an accomplice to their delusions. It has made me a specialized liar and a person who condones destructive and paltry behavior. And I'm not one sided on this stance. If someone sees that my behavior is destructive or wrong please let me know, but please let me know with candor and frankness. Fortunately, most people have not had a problem telling me how it is; they have not had to play mind games or tiptoe around me, because I don't expect them to. I'm not a fluffy bunny pity-party waiting to be coddled. I'm a human being that can take criticism although sometimes it's true that it takes time to marinate in order for me to understand it. I don't expect people to treat me like I belong in an institution because I can't function well enough to hear the truth. People do a great disservice to one another by not being honest and direct. By walking on eggshells we paralyze and deceive one another, and we make a mockery out of ourselves. In this regard, for the sake of respect, especially for friends and family, honesty and a forthcoming attitude prevail. Dishonesty by walking on eggshells allows for further destruction, like knowing someone has chlamydia but failing to treat it. We may not all deserve respect but we deserve truth if we ever hope to earn the respect of others. -------------------- No trees were harmed in the writing of this signature; however, millions of electrons were mildly inconvenienced. Edited by AnxietyDrive (08/11/10 09:34 PM)
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 Poid Shroomery's #1 Spellir    Registered: 02/04/08 Posts: 40,372 Loc: SF Bay Area 
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In what way do you harm them? Yeah, but a lot of the times the truth can be uncomfortable. And what's wrong with that? Would you prefer being that way, or would you prefer to always be 100% honest about everything? Truth isn't always good, though; people usually prefer not to speak about their core psychological/emotional issues because it makes them uncomfortable, I don't see anything wrong with "lying" about how you truly feel when you see someone who is amid an emotional/psychological crisis. --------------------   
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AnxietyDrive Aspiring Psychologist Registered: 01/03/09 Posts: 472 Last seen: 11 years, 7 months |
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Do you really need to ask? They're aloud to continue their destructive behavior while you encourage it by either lying to them or worse, engaging in said behavior with them.
So you would condone lying? Nice philosophy. I hope it doesn't color the rest of your thinking. 
What's right and good about it?
As honest as possible, lying least as possible.
It's good to be as truthful as possible, on principle. If you don't have principles, it may be okay for you to lie, but not me. As I said, generally people are just being irrational. They're not suffering from a severe neurological condition that has made them helpless. It's time for people to start pulling themselves up by their bootstraps. Indeed, a few theoretical orientations in psychology actual emphasize this sort of active-directive approach. Perhaps it will help kill ridiculous liberal ideas like being politically correct and all this other hogwash. You know? -------------------- No trees were harmed in the writing of this signature; however, millions of electrons were mildly inconvenienced.
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Poid Shroomery's #1 Spellir Registered: 02/04/08 Posts: 40,372 Loc: SF Bay Area
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Nobody is in any position to "allow" anybody to do anything; if they are harming themselves with negative thoughts, how does this mean that you're harming them? I think it completely depends on the situation. Why do you think that truth = happiness?  Even if this means that most people would consider your blunt honesty as offensive and hostile? I think lying is OK sometimes, it sure has saved me from trouble many times in my life. I would say that having a human brain is a severe neurological condition.  Why do you care, how does all this affect you? Most people would not be willing to do this, I would think. I agree that political correctness is bullshit, but I don't think that everybody has to be 100% with each other in order for it to go away. --------------------
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AnxietyDrive Aspiring Psychologist Registered: 01/03/09 Posts: 472 Last seen: 11 years, 7 months |
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By not articulating how you really feel, i.e. the truth, then you're essentially allowing them to continue on without so much as an inkling of dissent. Let me use an analogy to make this clear. Imagine a methhead who doesn't work and is a layabout and is constantly strung out on the pipe. This meth-head has a lot of friends. The friends are upset with his behavior. He sits around smoking his pipe, hurting their feelings with his behavior, and he is not doing anything decent or productive. His friends are pissed because he's decided that the meth is more important than his relationship; but the friends while talking shit behind his back only cater to his demands and addiction to his face. They actually buy him dope smoking paraphernalia, listen to everything he says, because if they don't they think he'll hate them or maybe try to assault them, although he's not a violent person. So instead of being straight forward with him they step on eggshells (lie), and some of them join him, directly condoning his behavior. He ends up ruining his life (which frankly is his own choice), because the friends were too afraid of hurting his feelings or causing strain on their relationship. The friends' apathy allowed the meth-head to destroy his life, while at the same time destroying theirs and anyone close to him. Be frank. Be straightforward. Don't pussyfoot around situations. Make issues known.
You either condone lying or you don't. You're principled or you're not.
No. I don't think being an accomplice to someone delusions does anything helpful to the situation, nor does it help your own situation. I'm not certain how you reconcile this yourself.
How liberal are you? Since when have you cared about offending people. This kind of contradicts your statement below, agreeing with me about political correctness being foolish. If people can't handle the truth...it is time to grow a spine.
On principle I'm stuck with being as honest as possible, because without honesty we constantly weave webs of deceit. I understand that lies do occur on accident, especially white lies, but we must keep this as minimal as possible.
I would say that this is a pointless red herring. You know what I meant.
I'm a psychologist in training, this will affect me a lot.
Ummm...a lot of psychologists do this. Both Gestalt therapy and REBT emphasize active-directive and sometimes confrontational therapeutic approaches. -------------------- No trees were harmed in the writing of this signature; however, millions of electrons were mildly inconvenienced.
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Icelander The Minstrel in the Gallery  Registered: 03/15/05 Posts: 95,368 Loc: underbelly |
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Be frank. Be straightforward. Don't pussyfoot around situations. Make issues known.
Oh I do, I do. That's what makes me so popular around here.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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amuzakat Growing mutant shrooms  Registered: 04/01/09 Posts: 519 Loc: Europe |
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People and situations are often a bit more complex and ask for a bit more than such a simple either/or choice. You often aren't aware of "The Truth" about the people etc, it's often a moving target depending not just on people's pasts but where they are heading or should be heading, etc. But given the premises that we know the truth about person X, and telling the truth will be helpful (which I also agree it usually will), then I agree completely. 
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AnxietyDrive Aspiring Psychologist Registered: 01/03/09 Posts: 472 Last seen: 11 years, 7 months |
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That must be why I like you. -------------------- No trees were harmed in the writing of this signature; however, millions of electrons were mildly inconvenienced.
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Icelander The Minstrel in the Gallery Registered: 03/15/05 Posts: 95,368 Loc: underbelly |
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Let's keep that in mind for future posts.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Poid Shroomery's #1 Spellir Registered: 02/04/08 Posts: 40,372 Loc: SF Bay Area
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When it comes to something like this, I would probably be honest and straight-up, especially if i cared for the person. Usually, though, when I'm around people, I just wanna have fun, and not think about any severe problems I or the person I'm with may have; I do most of my problem solving in solitude. But that's not always fun...  Such black & white thinking is so first grade.  What if one's delusions offer a more comfortable existence than awareness of the truth? Fantasy always has the potential to be better than reality... You're kind of contradicting yourself here, you want people to feel good, while at the same time you don't give a fuck if people become hurt and offended; it's almost like you're saying you only care about people who are capable of being content with the truth, and couldn't give less of a rat's ass about people who can't handle it. I'm talking about intentional lies, such as "No, officer, I am not high, and am not in possession of weed.", "No, mom, I'm not high, and am not in possession of weed.", and "No, teacher, I am not high and am not in possession of weed.". I know, I was just joking around a bit.  Well, try not to let it negatively affect you. No, I mean most people wouldn't be willing to go to therapy, the prospect of it is quite intimidating, or otherwise uncomfortable for some. --------------------
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AnxietyDrive Aspiring Psychologist Registered: 01/03/09 Posts: 472 Last seen: 11 years, 7 months |
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So your idea of fun is lying and playing with people? lol
It's the destruction of black and white thinking that has allowed many of the liberal, bullshit policies to take effect. We've already sunken into enough relativity to destroy our precious Constitution.
So you'd rather live in a fantasy just because it's "comfortable"? I ask that, but it appears that a lot of Americans would rather live in ignorance. I suppose it is bliss, right? Ucky.
Not really. The point is that people shouldn't be butt hurt in the first place. Various social conventions have things set up in such a way that the most trivial action causes others to be offended. No one has the right to be offended anyway. And this moves a bit away from my original topic, which deals with personal conduct in regards to mental illness.
These are bad examples because if you lie or tell the truth you're fucked anyway. These people don't care what your motive was, or if you were lying or truthful. Indeed, you shouldn't have to lie about this stuff period. Stick to principle.
I suppose I got a bit TOO serious.
It will affect me in the sense that I will be dealing with it...
As a generality, you're right. Psychotherapy is highly underused. -------------------- No trees were harmed in the writing of this signature; however, millions of electrons were mildly inconvenienced.
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Poid Shroomery's #1 Spellir Registered: 02/04/08 Posts: 40,372 Loc: SF Bay Area
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More like being playful, and not talking about uncomfortable truths in the midst of all the fun.  That's a load of shit, care to back it up? BTW, by 'black & white thinking', I'm basically talking about the type of mentality where an individual believes that things are either this or that way, and precludes any possibility that things may lay somewhere in between. Just clearing that up because I don't think you understood what I meant. The Constitution probably wouldn't even exist in the way it exists today if its drafters were "black & white thinkers". I don't believe there is anything more important to me than comfort; I am driven by an inclination to learn things, and even sometimes delve into the more uncomfortable parts of my psyche in an attempt to "self-heal", but in the end of the day, if I had to choose between the two, I'd choose a comfortable existence over an extremely knowledgeable one. Can you give examples of some of these social conventions? What do you mean that nobody has the "right" to be offended? Then, if anything, I would say those are very good examples because they expose your black & white thinking on this matter for the childish bullshit that it is. How do you know that those people don't care what my motive was, and what does that have to do with anything? I agree that I shouldn't have to lie about weed, but unfortunately, since most people have retarded viewpoints regarding it, I have to keep a low profile in order to be safe. 
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AnxietyDrive Aspiring Psychologist Registered: 01/03/09 Posts: 472 Last seen: 11 years, 7 months |
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Firstly, if I didn't understand what you mean it was due to your clarity not my comprehension. Second, Is there a such thing as an "uncomfortable truth"? Are people that pathetic...so pathetic that in fact you give into this kind of thinking? It's like saying "I don't want to believe I can pull myself up by my own boostraps, because if I do then the mommy or daddy, government, or whoever won't take care of me. I'll have to face truth and not get what I want." No. Absolutely not.
I do think that in most situations things are "this way or that way." Back to the meth-head analogy. In your opinion there would be some middle ground. You would tell me that the guy isn't really fucking his life up, but not doing the BEST he can either? You see the problem with this kind of relativistic drivel, right? The guy is CERTAINLY fucking his life up, and his friends lives. The only thing that would believably lie in between would be your inability to admit the seriousness of the situation, thus exacerbating the problem.
Pretty black and white. Here's an example, the policy of nonintervention is fairly clear in the constitution. You're either abiding by it or you're not. There's no in between. The right to bear arms, you're either aloud to pack heat or you're not. There's no real in between.
So you'd rather be "comfortable" than be more awake or enlightened? Interesting. Again, ignorance is bliss I presume...
A huge social convention in America is the notion that if you barely get in someones way, it is "polite" to say excuse me. This is ridiculous. If you go to places in Europe you realize how overly protective of our space we are in America. Say excuse me in Germany and they look at you funny. Indeed, the whole notion of saying "Excuse me" has implications of someone being hurt or really trespassing upon someone else. Such insanity! No one has the right to get offended indeed. The best example of this regards free speech. When people try to "censor" others because they feel that "they've been attacked" is an attempt to justify someones right to "not be offended."
Better my "childish thinking" than your arbitrary relativity.
It was just an add, nothing real important I suppose. 
Socrates didn't "play it safe" - now he is a martyr for reason. -------------------- No trees were harmed in the writing of this signature; however, millions of electrons were mildly inconvenienced. Edited by AnxietyDrive (08/12/10 04:53 PM)
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Poid Shroomery's #1 Spellir Registered: 02/04/08 Posts: 40,372 Loc: SF Bay Area
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Yes, some people really are that pathetic, haven't you noticed?  I know, I wasn't calling you dumb or nuthin'.  According to Icelander, everybody is always doing the best they can, and I pretty much agree with him.  I was only criticizing your black & white thinking regarding lying in general (that it is always, without exceptions, wrong), not this specific example. At any rate, do you think that it isn't possible for lies to help this guy out of his hellish situation? Of course there is, there's the matter of what could legally be considered an "arm", and the matter of what could legally be considered "bearing" them--practically all of the Bill of Rights contains passages that can be interpreted in several different ways. Haha, this is great. Why would I want to be enlightened in the first place? To feel blissful, right? ...oh, and WTF is "enlightenment"?  If it's so huge, then how come it doesn't apply where I live? Lots of places in Europe are have a high population density, and that might be why people in those places don't do this. How is accepting that there are exceptions to almost everything mean that my thinking is arbitrary and relative? Did reason ever need a martyr? 
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AnxietyDrive Aspiring Psychologist Registered: 01/03/09 Posts: 472 Last seen: 11 years, 7 months |
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Poid, in all honesty I enjoyed debating with you. I'm about to have company and yet more debating, probably, so I have to bounce for awhile. I'll consider your position further.
-------------------- No trees were harmed in the writing of this signature; however, millions of electrons were mildly inconvenienced.
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Poid Shroomery's #1 Spellir Registered: 02/04/08 Posts: 40,372 Loc: SF Bay Area
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Freedom Pigment of your imagination  Registered: 05/26/05 Posts: 6,406 Last seen: 24 days, 9 hours |
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Yeah 8 years ago I had a bunch of conversations where I realized that some people really respect you when you are straightforward and frank when there is disagreement. I thought it was awesome and great and shortly thereafter I met my soon to be wife.
I had one conversation about philosophy with her mother, and in my new found admiration of being straightforward, I didn't walk on those proverbial eggshells. Oh if only I had known about borderline personality disorder. I'm not going to write an essay on the shitstorm that followed, changing several peoples lives forever, but suffice it to say that sometimes people are eggshells, even ones who seem normal at first. When they crack it can be tragic. btw, everyone should look up the symptoms of borderline personality disorder and avoid people who have it like the plague.
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