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Re: The Antidepressant Age [Re: Poid]
    #12749931 -

modern psychotherapy techniques are more effective than older ones

I'm not sure if that's true or not. What do you base this on?


What illusory facade are you speaking of?

Positive illusions. The very same part of the psyche that makes people think they can come out ahead when gambling despite knowledge of the odds being against them. That part that creates an illusion we find comfortable so that we don't see the reality. And the form this aspect of the psyche takes seems to be very related to the culture one is raised in. Some cultures recognize it and warn against its dangers. Others exploit it and use it for the gain of a few while the masses suffer.

No matter what reality doesn't change and the illusion eventually gives way.


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Re: The Antidepressant Age [Re: Poid]
    #12749937 -

Biting my tongue I understand a lot of your ratings, especially DeathCompany's. It's actually ironic because I thought the same thing as I was reading through them.


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By the livin' Gawd that made you,
    You're a better man than I am, Gunga Din

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Re: The Antidepressant Age [Re: Kickle]
    #12749948 -

Is there a line recognized between psychology and pathology?

That is more what I am interested in.

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Re: The Antidepressant Age [Re: daytripper23]
    #12749958 -

I just made an edit on my OP for emphasis on this particular question, so maybe it is more clear what I am asking. Sorry for the jumble.

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Re: The Antidepressant Age [Re: daytripper23]
    #12749973 -

Absolutely. Pathology is only a part of psychology much as logic too is a part. Psychology is the study of the psyche as a whole. Many people specialize and certain specialties receive more media attention than others, but the field of psychology is pretty darn comprehensive IMO.


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Re: The Antidepressant Age [Re: Kickle]
    #12750004 -

Kickle said:
I do so with the goal of escaping the dependence on medicine rather than bolstering a reliance upon it.


Why are u so against using drugs to subdue?

Or rather why is there such a distinct boundary between say
-performing an action to alter your mental state
-and taking a drug to alter your mental state?

Just curious


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dripping with fantasy

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Re: The Antidepressant Age [Re: Kickle]
    #12750030 -

Could you give an example of something psychological that is not pathological?

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Re: The Antidepressant Age [Re: quinn]
    #12750039 -

I think both performing an action and taking a drug to avoid a mental state are a form of avoidance that leads to the perpetuation of the problem. Neither an action taken to avoid a problem, nor the drug taken to avoid the problem, ever actually allow the mental phenomena to be experienced without resistance.

IMO experiencing mental phenomena clearly and without changing it to suit some desire is the most healthy way. It is showing up over and over again in treatments as being superior to all other methods. A different way or relating to the mind. Stop running from it, stop avoiding it, and just let it be. Let it do what it needs to do. You can't stop it, you don't control it, and the more you think you should be able to, the worse the problems get.


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Re: The Antidepressant Age [Re: daytripper23]
    #12750058 -

Sure. The ways that we navigate in our 3-dimensional world is an example. The human psyche has distinct ways of interpreting this data and organizing it into memory that other animals distinctly differ from.

Landmarks
Timing
Celestial cues
etc.


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Re: The Antidepressant Age [Re: Kickle]
    #12750092 -

Thanks. Good answer!


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dripping with fantasy

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Re: The Antidepressant Age [Re: quinn]
    #12750129 -

my pleasure, thanks for asking


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Re: The Antidepressant Age [Re: Kickle]
    #12750216 -

Kickle said:
modern psychotherapy techniques are more effective than older ones

I'm not sure if that's true or not. What do you base this on?

Well if modern methods are less effective, then why did they replace old ones?



Kickle said:
Some cultures recognize it and warn against its dangers. Others exploit it and use it for the gain of a few while the masses suffer.

Do you have any sources for that? Sounds interesting. :sun:



Kickle said:
No matter what reality doesn't change and the illusion eventually gives way

It either gives way, or transforms into a different illusion.


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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

Edited by Poid (06/15/10 11:49 PM)

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Re: The Antidepressant Age [Re: Poid] * 1
    #12750275 -

No sources on hand. The knowledge comes from social psychology blended together with native american religion and philosophy.

It either gives way, or transforms into a different illusion.

Very true...


Well if modern methods are more less effective, then why did they replace old ones?

Standardization comes to mind. There is a lot of pathology, but only a few who really see what's going on. Beck created the most standardized means to performing an effective treatment. He saw what was occurring and he gave replicable instructions on how to counter it. As long as you can follow the manual, you can produce results, even if you don't really understand why. We've reached the assembly line of clinical psychology. Masses in, masses out. 

Edited by Kickle (06/15/10 11:46 PM)

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Re: The Antidepressant Age [Re: Kickle]
    #12750359 -

Here is a comparison you might be interested in.

Buddhism finds its positive title (its ideology) in its acknowledged statement of pathos (suffering). For its system to work the recognition of suffering is fundamentally basic, as the first of the four noble truths. Buddhism purports to be able to describe faculties ordinarily attributed to a self as the "aggregates". These are faculties for being in the world, much as you have described certain faculties psychologically.

But while I understand that these faculties are not beyond psychology, what makes them psychological in a positive sense?

My assumption would be that psychology is based on a structure of self, or some concept of self. That self might be unspoken, but it would necessarily be implied by the faculties and "being in the world" as you describe. I imagine that this self is necessary, because the practice and science of psychology is fundamentally based on systematic analysis of something. Psycho-analysis, is then necessarily systematized as a relationship between a patient and the doctor. And finally, I find that this relationship between patient and doctor is remarkable of pathology.

So Buddhism is commonly recognized as a doctrine (no-self) and an ideology (and a religion)

Psychology supposedly avoids ideological detractors in its broadest sense. This is what first seems questionable to me, a question I would bring up to psychology as it is encountered in the world.

But I am also thinking its historical development follows different order of arrangement, perhaps due to an ideal separation between pathology and psychology. So addressed in a different way, with ideological labels aside, a face of psychology is also the relationship between analysis and something analyzed, as a science without ideological labels. That something is a self or concept/structure of self (and consequently a labeling).

I'm curious to hear your own take.

Edited by daytripper23 (06/16/10 12:03 AM)

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Re: The Antidepressant Age [Re: Kickle]
    #12750368 -

Kickle said:
We've reached the assembly line of clinical psychology. Masses in, masses out. 

Then isn't it, in at least some sense, more effective? Isn't the aim of mass-production to increase efficiency in some manner?


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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: The Antidepressant Age [Re: Poid] * 1
    #12750372 -

Yeah, you're right. :thumbup:


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Re: The Antidepressant Age [Re: SillyBilly]
    #12750390 -

SillyBilly said:
I myself am bipolar though I don't like to say my mood revolves around it because I think I should have enough control over it. BUT I find that a lot of my problems when I'm really down is lack of outdoor activity( melanin/melatonin), endorphins from lack of exercise and skipping a workout, or just procrastinating. I think the problem is motivation but all of these things can be cured by direct results of indirect or direct interaction out in the real world.


I am with you on this one.I'm also bipolar,but as long as i'm outdoors and interacting with other people I seem to be just fine,but if I stay indoors and to myself I find myself very depressed.

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Re: The Antidepressant Age [Re: Kickle]
    #12750405 -

Kickle said:
Do you think that antidepressants will prolong or shorten the lifespan of our society?


It might be one of various things that will contribute to our demise.

Basically, we're fucked.


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Re: The Antidepressant Age [Re: daytripper23] * 1
    #12750436 -


But while I understand that these faculties are not beyond psychology, what makes them psychological in a positive sense?

The psychologist is the observer. What it observes is the faculties of the psyche. The positive nature of this, IMO, is that it makes tangible and visible what is normally unseen. The separation between viewer and viewed takes form. At least that is the general idea. It seems to break down on the individual level but not necessarily at the conceptual. Much as Buddhism seems to also break down at the individual level -- there will always be those claiming enlightenment before they've reached it.

Psychology supposedly avoids ideological detractors as a whole somehow.

Because it's utilizing the tools of science, it is attempting to remove the observer from the observation. Of course you never really escape the intertwining nature of the two, but you get pretty darn close. Psychology IMO tries to narrow this even further. It examines the examiner, and through what it learns of the examiner, tries to remove even that from the process. So in this way, it attempts to avoid being a religion by using a scientific methodology grounded in strict observation. But it seems that a psychologist who is learned in Buddhism will find themselves drawing many parallels between the two approaches.

And many psychologists will hold beliefs that resemble that of the great religions, even if they cannot reproduce the observations that led to these beliefs in a laboratory setting. 


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Re: The Antidepressant Age [Re: Kickle]
    #12752202 -

Kickle, I read that stat in the book Geography of Bliss, based on the author's review of the data from the World Database of Happiness (a non-profit research org). They are just simple question and answer surveys, but they do a ton of them.

I've tried to find the overall trend versus time, but I can only find it for individual nations. The site seems quite difficult to navigate. I don't think you will find many precipitous drops if you skip around the data for different nations though.

http://worlddatabaseofhappiness.eur.nl/hap_nat/nat_fp.php

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