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Descending Kundalini * 1
    #12098192 -

I've seen a lot of posts here regarding the rising of kundalini-- so I thought I would bring up something interesting I read recently, that of descending kundalini. What goes up must come down.

This is an interpretation of kundalini within the Shaivite concept of duality. Shiva can be seen as pure consciousness or awareness, and his seat is in ajna chakra. Shakti can be seen as pure energy or matter, the potential for creation, and her seat in within mooladhara chakra. Shakti is the kundalini energy that rises up to the ajna chakra, where she reunites with Shiva-- and they both go on to transcend duality in sahasrara.


Quote:
The whole process after union
When Shiva and Shakti unite in sahasrara, one experiences samadhi, illumination occurs in the brain and the silent areas begin to function. Shiva and Shakti remain merged together for some time, during which there is a total loss of consciousness pertaining to each other. At that time a bindu evolves. Bindu means point, a drop, and that bindu is the substratum of the whole cosmos. Within that bindu is the seat of human intelligence and the seat of total creation. Then the bindu splits into two and Shiva and Shakti manifest again in duality. When the ascension took place it was only Shakti, but when descent takes place, Shiva and Shakti both descend to the gross plane and there is again knowledge of duality. [...] After total union there is a process of coming down the same pathway you ascended. The gross consciousness which became fine, again becomes gross. That is the concept of divine incarnation or avatara.

The non-dual experience of samadhi
When one attains the highest pinnacles of samadhi, purusha and prakriti, or Shiva and Shakti, are in total union and only adwaita, non-dual experience, exists. At this time, when there is no subject/object plus distinction, it is very difficult for one to differentiate. He may look like an idiot and not know it, or he may appear to be a great scholar and not know be aware of that. He does not know whether he is talking to a man or a woman, he sees no difference between them. He may even be associating with spiritual or divine people without being aware of that, because at this point of time his consciousness is reduced to a level innocence just like a baby.
So, in the state of samadhi you are a baby. A baby cannot tell the difference between a man and a woman because he has no physical or sexual distinction. He cannot distinguish a scholar from an idiot and he may not even see any difference between a snake and a rope. He can hold a snake just as he holds a rope. This only happens when union is taking place.
When Shiva and Shakti descend to the gross plane, that is, mooladhara chakra, they separate and live as two entities. There is duality in mooladhara chakra. There is duality in the mind and senses and in the world of name and form, but there is no duality in samadhi. There is no seer or experiencer in the state of samadhi. There is nobody to say what samadhi is like because it is a non-dual experience.

Why Shiva and Shakti both descend
It is very difficult to understand why Shiva and Shakti descend to the gross place after having attained the highest union. What is the use of destroying the world and then creating it again? What is the point of transcending the consciousness if you have to come back to it again? Why bother to awaken kundalini and unite Shiva in sahasrara if you have to come down to mooladhara again? This is something very mysterious and we can well ask, "Why awaken kundalini at all?"
Why build a mansion if you know you will have to burn it down when it is completed? We actually create a lot of things that are ultimately going to be destroyed. So why do it at all? It seems so crazy! We do so much sadhana to transcend the chakras and ascend from earth to heaven. Then, when we reach paradise and become one with that great reality, we suddenly decide to come back down; and not all alone, we bring the great one with us. It would be easier to understand if Shakti came back alone and Shiva remained in heaven. Maybe when Shakti is about to leave, Shiva says, "Wait, I'm coming with you."

A new existence on the gross plane
When kundalini descends, you come down to the gross plan with a totally transformed consciousness. You live a normal life, associating with everybody and discharging your worldly obligations just like other people do. Maybe you even play the game of desires, passions, cravings and such things. Maybe you play the game of victory and defeat, attachment and infatuation, but you are just playing a game. You know it; you do everything as an actor. You are not involved in it life and soul.
It is at this time that the genius or the transformed consciousness manifests through you. You do not have to think or plan how to preform miracles. You have to remember that you have come down as a transformed quality of consciousness. You must remember that you are now connected with those areas of the brain which were previously silent. You must also remember that you are linked with those reservoirs of knowledge, power and wisdom which belong to the realm of the higher cosmos.

Dealing with the issues of reality
When Shiva and Shakti descend to the gross level of awareness there is again duality. That is why the self-realized person is there is again duality. That is why the self-realized person is able to understand pain and all the mundane affairs of life. He understands the whole drama of duality, multiplicity and diversity. Sometimes we ordinary mortals are at a fix to understand how this person with the highest attainment is able t cope with the hopeless dualities of life.
When I was about thirteen, I was also puzzled by this question. There was a great lady saint who was supposed to have attained the very highest state and I used to visit her with my elders. I used to hear her discussing all the mundane and ordinary things of life-- "How are you? How is your child? Is he sick? Are you giving him medicine? Why do you fight with your wife?" I used to think, "If she is an enlightened lady, she shouldn't talk about duality. How can she understand duality if she is in unity?"
I never got an answer, but everyone has his moments of experience in life and I have not been an exception to that. I came to understand that Shiva and Shakti live on both planes and that his gross plane of duality is an expression and manifestation of the correlation of Shiva and Shakti. This is precisely the reason why the great saints and mahatmas talk about charity, compassion, love, and so on. However, there is a period when they do not understand these things and they do not care what happens to the world. They do not even know what is going on, who is happy and who is suffering. Finally, however, there is a great transformation. Shakti rules matter and Shiva rules consciousness, and when they descend to the gross plane Shakti continues to rule matter, and Shiva, being consciousness, gives an understanding to the whole world.





I find this very interesting. The goal is not to transcend duality, but to bring our consciousness/awareness down to this duality-- whereby one can see beyond it, while still seeing its distinction.

It reminds of the saying 'we are all spiritual beings having a human experience.' Even if one is able to transcend this human existence into non-duality and realize the oneness, one will still return to the duality. I wonder why this is?-- that is one of the things that isn't answered in the chapter.

I know on my breakthrough DMT trips there is something I continually remember, that I also know will be forgotten completely once I return to this reality. The only thing that remains afterwards is the strongest feeling of deja vu, and the feeling that everything is going just right.


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Re: Descending Kundalini [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #12098375 -

Look into Plato's concept of anamnesis if you haven't just stumbled across this already.


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: Descending Kundalini [Re: deCypher]
    #12098447 -

Ah I have read a little on this, but forgot about it until you reminded me. I think I'll have to pick up my copy of Phaedo and reacquaint myself with it.

From what I remember, it seems his concept of the physical body and senses limiting the mind from attaining true knowledge definitely seems similar to this concept of rising and falling kundalini.


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Re: Descending Kundalini [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #12098617 -

Descending Kundalini doesn't really make sense to me--from what I've read, Kundalini is a spiritual energy that moves throughout the body and unblocks spiritual blockages.


Does a descending Kundalini create spiritual blockages? Is it some sort of black magick or something? :undecided:


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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Descending Kundalini [Re: Poid]
    #12098639 -

From a certain perspective there is no such thing as black magick.  :satansmoking:


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: Descending Kundalini [Re: deCypher]
    #12098659 -

Right, you are. :yoda2:


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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Descending Kundalini [Re: Poid]
    #12098741 -

Poid said:
Does a descending Kundalini create spiritual blockages? Is it some sort of black magick or something? :undecided:



No, I don't think it creates spiritual blockages. It isn't simply reversing the process of rising kundalini.
Rising kundalini allows one to transcend duality, descending kundalini brings one back to duality-- the key difference being that now consciousness/awareness [Shiva] is together with energy/matter [Shakti]. This allows one to recognize the illusion of duality while remaining within it.

Exactly why it is better to be aware of duality, rather than to simply transcend it into oneness is something I don't know though.


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Re: Descending Kundalini [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #12098744 -

maybe to be of greater benefit to other "beings" within duality?


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Re: Descending Kundalini [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #12098775 -

Exactly why it is better to be aware of duality, rather than to simply transcend it into oneness is something I don't know though.

Maybe it's better because most people are not trancended into oneness, and believe that the way people who are trancended into oneness behave is bat shit insane. :shrug:


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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Descending Kundalini [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #12098789 -

shivas.wisdom said:
Exactly why it is better to be aware of duality, rather than to simply transcend it into oneness is something I don't know though.



Well wouldn't true oneness have to include duality? Because obviously duality exists, so how could it not be included?  Haha, I don't really know if this is the sort of thing that words are useful for.


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check out my music!
drowse in prison and your waking will be but loss

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Re: Descending Kundalini [Re: g00ru]
    #12098870 -

deff said:
maybe to be of greater benefit to other "beings" within duality?



I think this is at least partially the reason.

Poid said:
Maybe it's better because most people are not trancended into oneness, and believe that the way people who are trancended into oneness behave is bat shit insane. :shrug:



But why would this matter? If oneness is truly acheived there is nothing remained to be thought of as bat shit insane. I think it has to be for a great reason than non-acceptance of others.


guruu said:
Well wouldn't true oneness have to include duality? Because obviously duality exists, so how could it not be included?  Haha, I don't really know if this is the sort of thing that words are useful for.



But is it possible to experience both duality and oneness at the same moment? Even if a beam of light can be both white light and broken a part into the colour spectrum, is it possible to make the same beam of light both at once? If not, why do we choose one or the other?


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Re: Descending Kundalini [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #12098931 -

Well the thing is, oneness transcends all concepts, including the concept of oneness, so all our talking means nothing.  Oneness is just everything, which i suppose include the concepts of oneness and duality but I'm kind of talking out of my ass by even saying any of this.


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check out my music!
drowse in prison and your waking will be but loss

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Re: Descending Kundalini [Re: g00ru]
    #12098993 -

I get what you are saying, and I agree and disagree I think.

Oneness definitely goes beyond anything we can attribute to it, it is beyond experience. Even 'oneness' is limiting it.

At the same time, I feel that duality is transcended at this point and is not present in the true experience of 'oneness'.

Quote:
When Shiva and Shakti descend to the gross plane, that is, mooladhara chakra, they separate and live as two entities. There is duality in mooladhara chakra. There is duality in the mind and senses and in the world of name and form, but there is no duality in samadhi. There is no seer or experiencer in the state of samadhi. There is nobody to say what samadhi is like because it is a non-dual experience.




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Re: Descending Kundalini [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #12100155 -

Read Lama Anagarika Govinda's Foundations of Tibetan Mysticism...if you dare. It will describe, illustrate and explain the arousal, Path of Ascent and Path of Descent of the Inner Fire, called Tummo in Vajrayana Buddhism, but you will be forced to suspend your Shiva-Shakti Hindu Tantric model for the model that developed within Buddhism. I've studied that text since 1973 and built a dissertation upon its modified chakra model.

There are 3 realms, taken from Chinese thought, as Tibet lay between India and China, their systems are a unique union of static and fluidic models. There is Earth realm (smad), the Human realm (bar) and the Heaven realm (stod). The lowest 2 chakras (anal-genital) are combined into a Root center along with Manipura form the first realm. The Heart alone forms the Human realm (seed syllable HUM) and the uppermost 2 chakras are combined into one Brain center. The Path of Ascent has a 'shepherd's crook' pattern superimposed over a circular one. The descending energies from the experience of highest samadhi (OM) descends, enlightening the Throat center (AH) and enters the Heart center (HUM). The upper three become transformed into The Mystery of Body, Speech and Mind (OM AH HUM), and vehicles of Enlightened mind. The energies of the lowest center, which was originally symbolized by seed syllable AH becomes transferred to the Throat Center with a different experience value. Originally the AH was fanned to incandescence theough pranayama, and rose all the way to meet the seed syllable HAM in the Brain center. This parallels the process you described, but Kundalini-Shakti is not focused on in Buddhism. AHAM, as in Ahamkara, sems to indicate a Transcendental Ego or Identity that forms at that experience, but...check out the book. It'll keep you busy for years!  :wink:


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: Descending Kundalini [Re: g00ru]
    #12100812 -

guruu said:
Well the thing is, oneness transcends all concepts, including the concept of oneness, so all our talking means nothing.  Oneness is just everything, which i suppose include the concepts of oneness and duality but I'm kind of talking out of my ass by even saying any of this.



Duality --> Oneness --> Nothingness --> Everything/Infinity

:shrug:


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: Descending Kundalini [Re: deCypher]
    #12101543 -

deCypher said:
guruu said:
Well the thing is, oneness transcends all concepts, including the concept of oneness, so all our talking means nothing.  Oneness is just everything, which i suppose include the concepts of oneness and duality but I'm kind of talking out of my ass by even saying any of this.



Duality --> Oneness --> Nothingness --> Everything/Infinity

:shrug:



Duality <--> Oneness <--> Nothingness <--> Everything/Infinity

its all connected ^_^


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give me my wings.

Realize you are free


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Re: Descending Kundalini [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #12102838 -

But why would this matter? If oneness is truly acheived there is nothing remained to be thought of as bat shit insane. I think it has to be for a great reason than non-acceptance of others.

Survival--if you can't fit in with others at all, then how are you going to make :money:? :undecided:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Descending Kundalini [Re: Poid]
    #12103533 -

That makes sense to one within duality. But if one truly transcends this, into non-duality, then there is no longer any 'self' to identify with survival. If anything makes this choice, it is the 'oneness'- something like the brahman or tao. Why would this formlessness choose to take on a form[s] which then needs to survive?


@Markos-- This sounds like an interesting book. I think I will have to find it somewhere.


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Re: Descending Kundalini [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #12103652 -

But if one truly transcends this, into non-duality, then there is no longer any 'self' to identify with survival. If anything makes this choice, it is the 'oneness'- something like the brahman or tao. Why would this formlessness choose to take on a form[s] which then needs to survive?

Are you saying that people who transcend duality are no longer their physical selves?


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Descending Kundalini [Re: Poid]
    #12103730 -

No I think it means you hav
Poid said:
But if one truly transcends this, into non-duality, then there is no longer any 'self' to identify with survival. If anything makes this choice, it is the 'oneness'- something like the brahman or tao. Why would this formlessness choose to take on a form[s] which then needs to survive?

Are you saying that people who transcend duality are no longer their physical selves?



Maybe just our "former" self?

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