Home | Community | Message Board
You are not signed in.
Sign In New Account
Forum Index Search Posts Trusted Vendors Highlights Galleries FAQ User List Chat Store Random Growery


This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.

General Interest > Spirituality & Mysticism
Threaded Mode Threaded  Previous topic Previous  View all topics Index  Next topic Next 

Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

Jump to first unread post Pages: | 1 | 2  [ show all ]
Re: Descending Kundalini [Re: DeadHearts]
    #12103750 -

It just doesn't make sense to me--what would happen to the individual who transcended dualism's body if s/he us no longer his/her physical self?


I always thought of the transcendence of dualism as a realization, not as a literal transcendence of physical reality. :shrug:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Descending Kundalini [Re: Poid]
    #12103822 -

Poid said:
Are you saying that people who transcend duality are no longer their physical selves?


They are no longer their former physical self, yes. But in the sense that their is no longer any 'self' at all. The concept of a self is itself a form of duality-- it also implies something 'other' that is not the self. It cannot exist in non-duality.

I'm not sure what happens to the physical form at this time though. I tend to believe that the physical form remains, it's not that this physical world is an illusion. Only the distinction between the self and the other that is part of this physical world-- and that is what is destroyed.

Perhaps the physical person would be a raving lunatic, or completely calm and sublime. Or just dissapear into light. :shrug: It doesn't matter to them, because at the time of trascending there is no indentification with a single self.

That is why I say at that someone who was in the state of non-duality would have no concept of survival or any other mundane thing at this point.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Descending Kundalini [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #12104177 -

How is survival mundane? If an organism who has transcended duality dies, then it would no longer be alive to appreciate that experience.


Or are you saying that transcendence of duality = immortality?


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Descending Kundalini [Re: Poid]
    #12104242 -

Survival is a worldly matter. Thus mundane.

I think that analogy of a drop of water falling into an ocean is applicable here. Once that drop becomes part of the entire ocean, it is no longer a drop but has merged completely with the rest and has become one. What could happen to that original drop that would change this oneness? The only thing that could make any difference would be the elimination of the matter completely, and as far as I know this is impossible. If the only thing that is changing is the form, why should one worry about that if you are in the formless realm of non-duality?

As yes, transcendence allows liberation from the cycle of life and death, but is not immortality as there is no 'self' remaining to continue living forever.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Descending Kundalini [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #12104302 -

I'm feeling that the objective of kundalini transcending duality into oneness is to remember that we are forever connected with the infinite source/power, the most richest vibration that is the source of all other illusionary vibrations.

Then, when we come back down to duality, we don't forget that we are that infinite formless power, and begin to intentionally manifest in the physical vibration dimensions, and we do this in order to experience magnificence.

Heaven back down to Earth.  Bliss.


--------------------
Flowing through beginningless time since time without beginning...

Edited by Ginseng1 (02/26/10 07:21 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Descending Kundalini [Re: Ginseng1]
    #12104345 -

Ginseng1 said:
we don't forget


That's the hard part isn't it.

But I agree with your post!


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Descending Kundalini [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #12104373 -

shivas.wisdom said:
Ginseng1 said:
we don't forget


That's the hard part isn't it.

But I agree with your post!


It certainly is.  However, a truly disciplined mind won't let that get in the way of enlightenment! :wink:


--------------------
Flowing through beginningless time since time without beginning...

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Descending Kundalini [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #12104568 -

shivas.wisdom said:
I think that analogy of a drop of water falling into an ocean is applicable here. Once that drop becomes part of the entire ocean, it is no longer a drop but has merged completely with the rest and has become one. What could happen to that original drop that would change this oneness?

The atoms that comprised that drop could be extracted from the ocean. :shrug:



shivas.wisdom said:
The only thing that could make any difference would be the elimination of the matter completely, and as far as I know this is impossible. If the only thing that is changing is the form, why should one worry about that if you are in the formless realm of non-duality?

Any difference in terms of what?

That's the thing that I don't get about transcendence of duality--like i said earlier, to me, it is a realization, not a literal transcendence of physical reality. It would be impossible to transcend the body; you have to remember, the only reason we can perceive anything at all is because we have functioning brains. The functioning brain is limited in its capacity to perceive reality, and thus, so are we. We are, in a word, our brains.

If we were in realization of non-duality, the perception of this realization would be a function of our brain. There is nothing that we could perceive without our brain, and that is why your interpretation of non-duality troubles me--it assumes that we somehow transcend our brain, which is nonsense IMO.



shivas.wisdom said:
As yes, transcendence allows liberation from the cycle of life and death, but is not immortality as there is no 'self' remaining to continue living forever.

So what happens to the creature that was you after you transcend duality?


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Descending Kundalini [Re: Poid]
    #12104758 -

Poid said:
The atoms that comprised that drop could be extracted from the ocean. :shrug:

Which would be returning to duality-- but this is not a reason to want to do this, simply what would happen.
But could any change happen while in non-duality? I would say no.


Quote:
Any difference in terms of what?

In terms that the 'oneness' would be different. But the oneness cannot change as it has no specific qualities. IE. the Tao.


Quote:
That's the thing that I don't get about transcendence of duality--like i said earlier, to me, it is a realization, not a literal transcendence of physical reality. It would be impossible to transcend the body; you have to remember, the only reason we can perceive anything at all is because we have functioning brains. The functioning brain is limited in its capacity to perceive reality, and thus, so are we. We are, in a word, our brains.

If we were in realization of non-duality, the perception of this realization would be a function of our brain. There is nothing that we could perceive without our brain, and that is why your interpretation of non-duality troubles me--it assumes that we somehow transcend our brain, which is nonsense IMO.

If the brain is something within duality, how could it be used to transcend it? You do not 'perceive' non-duality- there is no self to perceive anything.
I can't explain it as I am not some realized saint or whatever. Even if I was, I'm pretty sure that the state of non-duality would not be explainable in dualistic terms [which is all we have to use]. It's not going to fit into 'this reality'. It will seem contradictory or illogical probably.

But understand this, a simple dualistic split is the 'self' and the 'not self'. This is what gives each and everyone of us our identity, our sense of being separate and existing in our own right. Transcend duality and the 'self' and the 'not self' merge into the oneness. At this point there is no sense of self. There is no perceiver, no experience-- it is a state completely foreign to this state we live in now.

How would you view this realization? For it seems that having it occur as a state within the brain is severely limiting it-- for it is, as you say, limited itself.


Quote:
So what happens to the creature that was you after you transcend duality?

I don't know. I assume it remains within the plane of duality in some way, because it appears one is able to return to their sense of self once kundalini has descended again. On this plane, death and life do exist-- but they don't exist in non-duality.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Descending Kundalini [Re: Poid]
    #12105010 -

Poid said:
How is survival mundane? If an organism who has transcended duality dies, then it would no longer be alive to appreciate that experience.


Or are you saying that transcendence of duality = immortality?


Yeah good point. I think when you experience enlightenment or whatever. You just become super schizo, like your so fucking crazy that you create any reality you want but at the same time you have to deal with physical life so you have to come back down and integrate. So when you die, you are enlightened enough to now choose your next experience in the infinite consciousness. And unfortinatly this planet is not a infinite choice that many spirits would choose to create..
Im just rambling.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Descending Kundalini [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #12105115 -

shivas.wisdom said:
If the brain is something within duality, how could it be used to transcend it? You do not 'perceive' non-duality- there is no self to perceive anything.

Alright, then I am again forced to ask--what happens to the human organism that was you once you've realized non-duality? If it is still alive, then it still has a functioning brain, and the creature itself is still living and perceiving reality as usual. Really, it seems to me that you believe that there is some sort of magical essence that transcends the body when one realizes non-duality, but I personally do not see any realistic basis for this belief.

It seems like you're saying that, when you realize non-duality, you escape from your human self, but this does not even seem like a remote possibility because, before you realize non-duality, there was a "you" that resided and lived inside the human organism, which perceived itself and the rest of reality that it came in contact with.


Basically you're saying that one can literally completely transcend themselves.



shivas.wisdom said:
I can't explain it as I am not some realized saint or whatever. Even if I was, I'm pretty sure that the state of non-duality would not be explainable in dualistic terms [which is all we have to use]. It's not going to fit into 'this reality'. It will seem contradictory or illogical probably.

Of course...:rolleyes:



Quote:
shivas.wisdom said:
But understand this, a simple dualistic split is the 'self' and the 'not self'. This is what gives each and everyone of us our identity, our sense of being separate and existing in our own right. Transcend duality and the 'self' and the 'not self' merge into the oneness. At this point there is no sense of self. There is no perceiver, no experience-- it is a state completely foreign to this state we live in now.

How would you view this realization? For it seems that having it occur as a state within the brain is severely limiting it-- for it is, as you say, limited itself.

I seriously doubt that the human organism can accomplish such a feat--this interpretation of non-duality seems to be teetering on the border of solipsism.

The reason that we sense being separate, is because we are; to me, non-dual realization is just about learning to be as equally aware of the body as you are of everything else. It's a matter of awareness, not literal transcendence.



shivas.wisdom said:
Quote:
So what happens to the creature that was you after you transcend duality?

I don't know. I assume it remains within the plane of duality in some way, because it appears one is able to return to their sense of self once kundalini has descended again. On this plane, death and life do exist-- but they don't exist in non-duality.

So the creature still exists, and has its own perceptions--can then, this creature that was you transcend itself, and so on and so on? :strokebeard:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Descending Kundalini [Re: Poid]
    #12105370 -

It seems we are starting to just go back and forth here, so let me summarize my beliefs regarding this duality/non-duality thing before continuing.


The true nature of reality is indescribable-- it transcends duality and is non-dual by nature. I think both the concepts of the tao or brahman fit with my views nicely. An analogy I use is shiva meditating within himself, upon Himself.

For reasons beyond my ken, this non-duality divides itself into two basic substances, matter [shakti, form] and consciousness [shiva, awareness]. Matter can take any form [and does], and consciousness is aware of this form. Another analogy I like to use for this is a dancing shiva. Shakti provides the forms [sounds, colours, shapes] that shiva is dancing too-- and shiva is perfectly aware of every subtle aspect of it, and derives ecstasy from it.

Down to us humans now.. our consciousness is not the pure consciousness of shiva-- instead it is a limited consciousness that doesn't extend beyond our own physical bodies. Thus, in the same way, our matter is limited to our human form. We live a limited existence in this duality, and the original realization [the kundalini rising] would be when we become conscious of the totality of creation [shiva-consciousness], rather than just our original limited consciousness of our selves. At this point, although one would still have awareness of the original 'self', it would be seen as equal to all other matter that one is now conscious of-- similar to suddenly seeing that a constellation is actually just a part of the night sky, all the stars being equal.

At this point though, one is still in duality. This is the time when shakti [kundalini energy] is in ajna chakra [the abode of shiva], but before they go on to unite in sahasrara. When they continue upwards to sahasrara they unite, and transcend duality-- reaching non-duality. This transcends any possible concept of the self. At this point there is no matter or consciousness, everything just is.

[this descent gig I'm still a little confused about myself, so keep this in mind]
When kundalini begins to descend, this oneness divides once again into matter and consciousness. Both shakti and shiva descend from ajna chakra to mooladhara chakra-- as far as I can see, this allows us to be aware of our 'self' while remembering our true nature of 'oneness'.



As to your question of what happens to the organism that transcends duality? I don't know. Maybe it disappears or merges into the non-duality, and then pops back when non-duality divides itself. Maybe it is unrecoverable, and all that matters is being in a form. Maybe both non-duality and duality can happen at the same time-- as they are just different ways of looking at the same thing.
:shrug:


--------------------

Edited by shivas.wisdom (02/26/10 10:40 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Descending Kundalini [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #12105395 -

shivas.wisdom said:
As to your question of what happens to the organism that transcends duality? I don't know. Maybe it disappears or merges into the non-duality, and then pops back when non-duality divides itself. Maybe it is unrecoverable, and all that matters is being in a form. Maybe both non-duality and duality can happen at the same time-- as they are just different ways of looking at the same thing.
:shrug:

It's statements like these that make non-dualism sound like solipsism--why would anything happen to the physical organism that was you once you've realized non-duality? It's almost as if you're saying that, when one individual achieves this state, then it somehow grossly effects all of existence.


Imagine that we're sitting together on a bench, and all of a sudden, you transcend duality--what do you think I would see? Would I see you disappear? Would I myself disappear as well? :strokebeard:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

Edited by Poid (02/27/10 05:18 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Descending Kundalini [Re: Poid]
    #12105494 -

It's may seem like solipsism in the sense that the only mind would be shivas [not me]-- but I don't deny the existence of other minds like my own.

I don't know how you want me to answer this question though. Anything I put forth will just be a guess, and it could be anything. I already put a few guesses in the post you quoted.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Descending Kundalini [Re: Poid]
    #12105575 -

Poid said:
shivas.wisdom said:
As to your question of what happens to the organism that transcends duality? I don't know. Maybe it disappears or merges into the non-duality, and then pops back when non-duality divides itself. Maybe it is unrecoverable, and all that matters is being in a form. Maybe both non-duality and duality can happen at the same time-- as they are just different ways of looking at the same thing.
:shrug:

It's statements like these that make non-dualism sound like solipsism--why would anything happen to the physical organism that was you once you've realized non-duality? It's almost as if you're saying that, when one individual achieves this state, then if somehow grossly effects all of existence.


Imagine that we're sitting together on a bench, and all of a sudden, you transcend duality--what do you think I would see? Would I see you disappear? Would I myself disappear as well? :strokebeard:


The person would probably faint and smash his head on the ground.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Descending Kundalini [Re: Poid]
    #12106542 -

Poid said:
shivas.wisdom said:
As to your question of what happens to the organism that transcends duality? I don't know. Maybe it disappears or merges into the non-duality, and then pops back when non-duality divides itself. Maybe it is unrecoverable, and all that matters is being in a form. Maybe both non-duality and duality can happen at the same time-- as they are just different ways of looking at the same thing.
:shrug:

It's statements like these that make non-dualism sound like solipsism--why would anything happen to the physical organism that was you once you've realized non-duality? It's almost as if you're saying that, when one individual achieves this state, then if somehow grossly effects all of existence.


Imagine that we're sitting together on a bench, and all of a sudden, you transcend duality--what do you think I would see? Would I see you disappear? Would I myself disappear as well? :strokebeard:


I imagine you would still be both sitting there and the only way you would be able to tell is the person next to you would start to look enlightened as fuck.


--------------------
check out my music!
drowse in prison and your waking will be but loss

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Descending Kundalini [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #12106725 -

shivas.wisdom said:
Poid said:
Are you saying that people who transcend duality are no longer their physical selves?


They are no longer their former physical self, yes. But in the sense that their is no longer any 'self' at all. The concept of a self is itself a form of duality-- it also implies something 'other' that is not the self. It cannot exist in non-duality.

I'm not sure what happens to the physical form at this time though. I tend to believe that the physical form remains, it's not that this physical world is an illusion. Only the distinction between the self and the other that is part of this physical world-- and that is what is destroyed.

Perhaps the physical person would be a raving lunatic, or completely calm and sublime. Or just dissapear into light. :shrug: It doesn't matter to them, because at the time of trascending there is no indentification with a single self.

That is why I say at that someone who was in the state of non-duality would have no concept of survival or any other mundane thing at this point.


Like a drop of water merging back into the Ocean... but surely we can experience non-duality without destroying this body, no?


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Descending Kundalini [Re: deCypher]
    #12106896 -

I would say so. It's the only way we could have people like Buddha or Jesus [assuming they experienced this state], their body wasn't destroyed upon realization.

Non-duality is formless, so no body could exist in non-duality. But I don't see this as meaning that the body no longer exists at all. Perhaps it's just like a beam of light going through a prism. White light is non-duality, colour spectrum is duality-- and even though no colour is present in the white light, it would be wrong to say that the colour is destroyed-- just not present.

Maybe everytime a consciousness realizes the oneness, this entire reality collapses into non-duality, and then divides back into duality-- and the only ones who can remember this are enlightened beings, while the rest of us just continue going on from where we left off.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Descending Kundalini [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #12109413 -

shivas.wisdom said:
Maybe everytime a consciousness realizes the oneness, this entire reality collapses into non-duality, and then divides back into duality-- and the only ones who can remember this are enlightened beings, while the rest of us just continue going on from where we left off.

Solipsism...:bored:

:tongue:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Descending Kundalini [Re: Poid]
    #12109456 -

Not necessarily.
It's compatible with the existence of other minds like myself.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: | 1 | 2  [ show all ]

Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

General Interest > Spirituality & Mysticism
Threaded Mode Threaded  Previous topic Previous  View all topics Index  Next topic Next 

Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Shaktipat (Kundalini awakening by grace or will of a guru)
( 1 2 all )		 NastyDHL 3,657 22 08/28/13 11:16 AM
by eve69
* shiva power 24 hour
( 1 2 3 all )		 shivas.wisdom 8,245 50 12/03/21 10:09 AM
by AnattaAtman
* Can Mindfulness raise kundalini??
( 1 2 all )		 Funkadelics 3,898 24 09/18/11 12:03 PM
by MarkostheGnostic
* The Darkness Before the Dawn (Kundalini Awakening) Adamist 12,702 15 04/26/11 09:00 PM
by playapez
* Anyone have kundalini awakening and still trip slickvic 7,921 18 09/06/13 05:03 PM
by eve69
* DPT - did this guy snort himself a Kundalini experience? AsanteM 2,411 6 05/21/09 07:33 AM
by Spiralout112
* Bad kundalini awakening destroyed my mind
( 1 2 3 all )		 Peyote Road 5,267 57 07/28/18 04:12 PM
by pacmanbreed
* Secrets of Kundalini PocketLady 677 18 01/27/19 04:18 PM
by Morel Guy

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Middleman, Asante, Shroomism, Rose, Kickle, yogabunny, Northerner, DividedQuantum
5,788 topic views. 1 members, 71 guests and 8 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2026 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.033 seconds spending 0.005 seconds on 14 queries.