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The Myths of Modern Schooling
    #11797517 -

Anybody who is interested in learning, from an experienced teacher's point of view, in detail, about the history of modern compulsory education should read this very informative e-book. It was written by John Taylor Gatto, who was a teacher in New York for almost 30 years, and who won a 'Teacher of the Year' award. Here is a quote from the book:

Quote:
Managerial Utopia

In an angry letter to the Atlantic Monthly (January 1998), Walter Greene, of Hatboro, Pennsylvania, protested the "myth of our failing schools," as he called it, on these grounds:

We just happen to have the world’s most productive work force, the largest economy, the highest material standard of living, more Nobel prizes than the rest of the world combined, the best system of higher education, the best high-tech medicine, and the strongest military. These things could not have been accomplished with second-rate systems of education.

On the contrary, the surprising truth is they could not have been accomplished to the degree they have been without second-rate systems of education. But here it is, writ plain, the crux of an unbearable paradox posed by scientifically efficient schooling. It works. School, as we have it, does build national wealth, it does lead to endless scientific advances. Where is Greene’s misstep? It lies in the equation of material prosperity and power with education when our affluence is built on schooling (and on entrepreneurial freedom, too, of course, for those libertarian enough to seize it). A century of relentless agit-prop has thrown us off the scent. The truth is that America’s unprecedented global power and spectacular material wealth are a direct product of a third-rate educational system, upon whose inefficiency in developing intellect and character they depend. If we educated better we could not sustain the corporate utopia we have made. Schools build national wealth by tearing down personal sovereignty, morality, and family life. It was a trade-off.

This contradiction is not unknown at the top, but it is never spoken aloud as part of the national school debate. Unacknowledged, it has been able to make its way among us undisturbed by protest. E.P. Thompson’s classic, The Making of the English Working Class, is an eye-opening introduction to this bittersweet truth about "productive" workforces and national riches. When a Colorado coalminer testified before authorities in 1871 that eight hours underground was long enough for any man because "he has no time to improve his intellect if he works more," the coaldigger could hardly have realized his very deficiency was value added to the market equation.

What the nineteenth century in the coal-rich nations pointed toward was building infrastructure for managerial utopia, a kind of society in which unelected functional specialists make all the decisions that matter. Formal periods of indoctrination and canonical books of instruction limit these specialists in their choices. The idea of managerial science is to embed managers so securely in abstract regulation and procedure that the fixed purpose of the endeavor becomes manager-proof.

Managerial utopias take tremendous effort to build. England’s version of this political form was a millennium in the building. Such governance is costly to maintain because it wastes huge amounts of human time on a principle akin to the old warning that the Devil finds work for idle hands; it employs large numbers of incompetent and indifferent managers in positions of responsibility on the theory that loyalty is more important than ability to do the job. I watched this philosophy in action in public schools for thirty years.

Ordinary people have a nasty habit of consciously and unconsciously sabotaging managerial utopias, quietly trashing in whole or part the wishes of managers. To thwart these tendencies, expensive vigilance is the watchword of large systems, and the security aspect of managerial utopia has to be paid for. Where did this money originally come from? The answer was from a surplus provided by coal, steam, steel, chemicals, and conquest. It was more than sufficient to pay for a mass school experiment. Society didn’t slowly evolve to make way for a coal-based economy. It was forcibly made over in double time like Prussians marching to battle Napoleon at Waterloo. An entirely successful way of life was forcibly ushered out.

Before anything could be modern, the damnable past had to be uprooted with its village culture, tight families, pious population, and independent livelihoods. Only a state religion had the power to do this—England and Germany were evidence of that—but America lacked one. A military establishment had power to do it, too. France, under the Directorate and Napoleon, was the most recent example of what physical force could accomplish in remaking the social order, but military power was still too dispersed and unreliable in America to employ it consistently against citizens.

As the established Protestant religion schismed and broke apart, however, America came into possession of something that would serve in its place—a kaleidoscope of utopian cults and a tradition of utopian exhortation, a full palette of roving experts and teachers, Sunday schools, lyceums, pulpits, and Chautauquas. It was a propitious time and place in which to aim for long-range management of public opinion through the utopian schooling vehicle Plato had described and that modern Prussia was actually using.

It takes no great insight or intelligence to see that the health of a centralized economy built around dense concentrations of economic power and a close business alliance with government can’t tolerate any considerable degree of intellectual schooling. This is no vain hypothesis. The recent French Revolution was widely regarded as the work of a horde of underemployed intellectuals, the American uprising more of the same. As the nineteenth century wore on, the Hungarian and Italian revolutions were both financed and partially planned from the United States using cells of marginal intellectuals, third sons, and other malcontents as a volunteer fifth column in advance of the revolutionary moment back home. Ample precedent to fear the educated was there; it was recognized that historical precedent identified thoughtful schooling as a dangerous blessing.



If you are dissatisfied at all with the way schools are being run, then I suggest that you read this book. :thumbup:




John Taylor Gatto - Challenging the Myths of Modern Schooling


From John Taylor Gatto - Wikipedia:
Quote:
John Taylor Gatto (born December 15, 1935) is an American retired school teacher of 29 years and 8 months and author of several books on education. He is an activist critical of compulsory schooling and of what he characterizes as the hegemonic nature of discourse on education and the education professions.




--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: The Myths of Modern Schooling [Re: Poid]
    #11798073 -

Another quote:



Quote:
If modern schooling has a “Fourth Purpose,” there must be an earlier three.
Traditional forms of instruction in America, even before the Revolution, had three specific purposes:

To make good people
To make good citizens
And to make each student find some particular talents to develop to the maximum.
The new mass schooling which came about slowly but continuously after 1890, had a different purpose, a "fourth" purpose.

THE
FOURTH
PURPOSE
The fourth purpose steadily squeezed the traditional three to the margins of schooling; in the fourth purpose, school in America became like school in Germany, a servant of corporate and political management.
We should reveal the mechanism of mind control training, habits, and attitudes.
Children were literally trained in bad habits and bad attitudes!
Teachers and principals, “scientifically”certified in teachers college practices, were made unaware of the invisible curriculum they really taught.



The secret of commerce, that kids drive purchases, meant that schools had to become psychological laboratories where training in consumerism was the central pursuit.





--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: The Myths of Modern Schooling [Re: Poid]
    #11810296 -

Here are a couple of his videos:






--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: The Myths of Modern Schooling [Re: Poid]
    #11810368 -

my thoughts.. somewhat similar to his "Fourth Purpose" bit is about computers and consumerism.

my problem with computer education is that kids are taught how to use MS Word or MS Excel. they should not be taught programs of any kind. they should be taught techniques and theory.

dont teach Word.. teach word processing.
dont teach Excell.. teach spreadsheet management.
dont teach Visual Studio.. teach programming from the ground up.

if one day MS decides its no longer going to make an office product (unlikely in the near future but humor me) there will be people who have no idea what to do in other applications because they only know one way of doing things.


--------------------

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Re: The Myths of Modern Schooling [Re: Poid]
    #11810371 -

Quote:
Poid said: Here is a quote from the book:

Quote:
Managerial Utopia
We just happen to have the world’s most productive work force, the largest economy, the highest material standard of living, more Nobel prizes than the rest of the world combined, the best system of higher education, the best high-tech medicine, and the strongest military.





You wouldn't know it to read some of the things posted on the Shroomery- some of those guys act like we live in a third-world shithole.


--------------------
You make it all possible. Doesn't it feel good?

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Re: The Myths of Modern Schooling [Re: Doc_T]
    #11810408 -

frith said:
my problem with computer education is that kids are taught how to use MS Word or MS Excel. they should not be taught programs of any kind. they should be taught techniques and theory.


I disagree; I think that students should be taught to be at least moderately proficient at the use of computers so they can learn how to educate themselves--the internet has rendered the modern schooling system obsolete.



frith said:
dont teach Word.. teach word processing.
dont teach Excell.. teach spreadsheet management.
dont teach Visual Studio.. teach programming from the ground up.


Not every kid will be interested in becoming a master computer programmer; to each their own, let kids map out their own education once they're old enough to know what they want.



frith said:
if one day MS decides its no longer going to make an office product (unlikely in the near future but humor me) there will be people who have no idea what to do in other applications because they only know one way of doing things.


Then someone is going to make a new program and make millions off it.



Doc_T said:
Quote:
Poid said: Here is a quote from the book:

Quote:
Managerial Utopia
We just happen to have the world’s most productive work force, the largest economy, the highest material standard of living, more Nobel prizes than the rest of the world combined, the best system of higher education, the best high-tech medicine, and the strongest military.





You wouldn't know it to read some of the things posted on the Shroomery- some of those guys act like we live in a third-world shithole.


:lol:, yeah. :thumbup:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: The Myths of Modern Schooling [Re: Poid]
    #11810471 -

Poid said:
frith said:
my problem with computer education is that kids are taught how to use MS Word or MS Excel. they should not be taught programs of any kind. they should be taught techniques and theory.


I disagree; I think that students should be taught to be at least moderately proficient at the use of computers so they can learn how to educate themselves--the internet has rendered the modern schooling system obsolete.



i agree that they should be taught computers. i dont think they should be taught products.. learning Windows doesnt mean they know computers.

Poid said:
frith said:
dont teach Word.. teach word processing.
dont teach Excell.. teach spreadsheet management.
dont teach Visual Studio.. teach programming from the ground up.


Not every kid will be interested in becoming a master computer programmer; to each their own, let kids map out their own education once they're old enough to know what they want.



it doesnt matter what subject is being taught.. its how its being taught. again, dont teach products. teach best practice situations.


--------------------

Edited by frith (01/11/10 07:04 PM)

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Re: The Myths of Modern Schooling [Re: frith]
    #11810493 -

frith said:
Poid said:
frith said:
my problem with computer education is that kids are taught how to use MS Word or MS Excel. they should not be taught programs of any kind. they should be taught techniques and theory.


I disagree; I think that students should be taught to be at least moderately proficient at the use of computers so they can learn how to educate themselves--the internet has rendered the modern schooling system obsolete.



i agree that they should be taught computers. i dont think they should be taught products.. learning Windows doesnt mean they know computers.


It's enough.



frith said:
Poid said:
frith said:
dont teach Word.. teach word processing.
dont teach Excell.. teach spreadsheet management.
dont teach Visual Studio.. teach programming from the ground up.


Not every kid will be interested in becoming a master computer programmer; to each their own, let kids map out their own education once they're old enough to know what they want.



it doesnt matter what subject is being taught.. its how its being taught. again, dont teach products. teach best practice situations.


Of course it matters what is being taught, just as much as it matters how it's being taught; why do you think what is being taught doesn't matter? :undecided:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: The Myths of Modern Schooling [Re: Poid]
    #11810625 -

Poid said:
It's enough.



i dont think it is. knowing how a computer really works from the base hardware up to the application layer will allow people to better diagnose their own problems (hopefully avoiding them all together) and give them a solid foundation to be able to see what fits their needs best.

teaching MS Word and saying "This is the only way to do word processing" is wrong.


Poid said:
Of course it matters what is being taught, just as much as it matters how it's being taught; why do you think what is being taught doesn't matter? :undecided:



what i meant was that it doesnt matter if you are teaching word processing or rebuilding transmissions. teaching only one product is detrimental to the education process.


--------------------

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Re: The Myths of Modern Schooling [Re: Poid]
    #11810635 -

I'm not in complete agreement with the topic.

Face it, high school is retard level learning.  You learn to read, write and do basic math.  It's too simple to have a hidden agenda.  I think a populace that can write correctly, speak basic english and utilize numbers is a good thing.

In college I took plenty of classes that were more than "training to be a part of the machine" and they were mandatory.  I had to take basic art classes where all types of different art and famous works were discussed.  I was required to read different philosophical works, poetry.

I think if it were all a scam to make me a perfect "worker bee" there would have been more productive avenues aside from art and poetry.


--------------------
...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436

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Re: The Myths of Modern Schooling [Re: frith]
    #11810659 -

frith said:
Poid said:
It's enough.



i dont think it is. knowing how a computer really works from the base hardware up to the application layer will allow people to better diagnose their own problems (hopefully avoiding them all together) and give them a solid foundation to be able to see what fits their needs best.


I guess that's true, but you have to remember that it's not everyone's thing; how is it necessary for a burger-flipper to know how a computer works from the base hardware up to the application layer? :undecided:



frith said:
teaching MS Word and saying "This is the only way to do word processing" is wrong.


You don't say that, you just tell them that it's a program that can be used for word processing. :shrug:



frith said:
Poid said:
Of course it matters what is being taught, just as much as it matters how it's being taught; why do you think what is being taught doesn't matter? :undecided:



what i meant was that it doesnt matter if you are teaching word processing or rebuilding transmissions. teaching only one product is detrimental to the education process.


Wouldn't confusing kids at a young age by teaching them all the mechanics of a computer be potentially detrimental to the education process as well? :strokebeard:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: The Myths of Modern Schooling [Re: badchad]
    #11810682 -

badchad said:
I'm not in complete agreement with the topic.

Face it, high school is retard level learning.


I know, & it shouldn't be. 



badchad said:
You learn to read, write and do basic math.


That's elementary school, what kind of high school did you go to? :lol:

 

badchad said:
It's too simple to have a hidden agenda.


The fact that it is simple is an argument in support of the assertion that there may be a hidden agenda; besides, if you haven't read the book, then what evidence are you basing this on? Is it just a gut feeling?



badchad said:
I think a populace that can write correctly, speak basic english and utilize numbers is a good thing.


Of course it is.



badchad said:
In college I took plenty of classes that were more than "training to be a part of the machine" and they were mandatory...I think if it were all a scam to make me a perfect "worker bee" there would have been more productive avenues aside from art and poetry.


This book is about compulsory education, not college.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: The Myths of Modern Schooling [Re: Poid]
    #11810717 -

Poid said:
it's not everyone's thing; how is it necessary for a burger-flipper to know how a computer works from the base hardware up to the application layer? :undecided:



true. kids are like sponges when theyre little though. a burger flipper can be bilingual just because they soaked it up as a little kid. i think the same can be done with computers.

Poid said:
Wouldn't confusing kids at a young age by teaching them all the mechanics of a computer be potentially detrimental to the education process as well? :strokebeard:



if you do it at like 6-8 years old i think they could get it.

you just have to take it slow and make it fun. get a few junker boxes and show them how to install a pci card, upgrade ram, etc. i could see kids liking it.


--------------------

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Re: The Myths of Modern Schooling [Re: frith]
    #11810751 -

frith said:
Poid said:
it's not everyone's thing; how is it necessary for a burger-flipper to know how a computer works from the base hardware up to the application layer? :undecided:



true. kids are like sponges when theyre little though. a burger flipper can be bilingual just because they soaked it up as a little kid. i think the same can be done with computers.


It's easier for a kid to learn a new language than it is for an older person because humans start learning to speak when they're children; I seriously doubt that a child would be able to handle learning all about computers, and not only that, I don't think that it's necessary at all for them to learn that.

Whenever an individual is old enough to be able to learn about computers, then they should make their own choice regarding whether or not they're going to do so, IMO.



frith said:
Poid said:
Wouldn't confusing kids at a young age by teaching them all the mechanics of a computer be potentially detrimental to the education process as well? :strokebeard:



if you do it at like 6-8 years old i think they could get it.


That's way to early for most kids to be learning such complicated stuff like that; children should be having fun playing, not stuck in a room with a bunch of other random brats forced to do some shit that they don't want to do.

Humans naturally love to learn, so humans should be allowed to learn what they want to when they want to; again, the internet has made modern compulsory education obsolete.



frith said:
you just have to take it slow and make it fun. get a few junker boxes and show them how to install a pci card, upgrade ram, etc. i could see kids liking it.


I think learning should be done inedenedently mostly, unless kids decide for themselves that they want to learn in a group setting; kids become easily distracted, and would rather play with other children who are in their presence than get cracking on the books because playing with other children is more fun.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: The Myths of Modern Schooling [Re: frith]
    #11810758 -

I'd be curious if the author of the book has any alternatives, and what his view of "successful schooling is".

I think compulsory education teaches very basic skills (relatively speaking).  Some view the mass acquisition of these skills as creating servants of the state.  I think we're better off with minimally educated servants, rather than a country of illiterate free thinkers.


--------------------
...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436

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Re: The Myths of Modern Schooling [Re: badchad]
    #11810777 -

badchad said:
I'd be curious if the author of the book has any alternatives, and what his view of "successful schooling is".


I think he does, but the main point he is making is that the current system is total bullshit; read it and see all the horrible things for yourself, he provides sources for almost all of his claims.



badchad said:
I think we're better off with minimally educated servants, rather than a country of illiterate free thinkers.


Who's "we"? :strokebeard2:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: The Myths of Modern Schooling [Re: Poid]
    #11811248 -

Yes this book is excellent and everyone should read it IMO.

The forced education system is motivated by purely economic reasons and is there to create slaves of the masses of lower classes.

The ruling elite of corporate and banking systems are an evil twisted bunch and the trail leads all the way back to the ruling bloodlines of UK and Europe who view most people as their property, slaves, and the nations as colonies.

The forced education system aims to separate families and undermine the family groups in our societies. It aims to create just one authority, the state, and the state is being run by a group of elite bloodlines that are the utmost criminal element of humanity, ruthless, greedy, and murderous--not to mention engaged in atrocities of all kinds such as child ritual abuse and blood sacrifice. do the research and see for yourself.

Furthermore the illuminati cult is within our education systems purposefully to control these mind-control programs and to turn living beings into dull workers and slaves. Children in these institutions endure all kinds of abuse and neglect, from hunger to harassment, to insults, to violence.

people should wake up and remember the way of living naturally on the earth--closer to nature, and realize they are being manipulated and mind controlled as slaves by forced education, fake organized religion, TV and movies (mind-control devices that alter brainwaves, and false propaganda through the media.


--------------------
Careful Nonviolence Toward All Life Forms

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Re: The Myths of Modern Schooling [Re: jainveganbuddha]
    #11811279 -

I'm not sure if everything you are saying there is fact, but I agree with your overall sentiments. :thumbup:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: The Myths of Modern Schooling [Re: Poid]
    #11811595 -

Just posting so I remember to come back to this thread, off to work.

Very interesting :vaped:

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