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 Madtowntripper
Sun-Beams out of Cucumbers
Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 21,287
Loc: The Ocean of Notions
Last seen: 8 months, 8 days
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 Re: Depression, myth thats called fact.  [Re: ]
#2089322 - 11/10/03 12:26 PM (20 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Yeah right. Anyone I've ever known, without fail, has said depression meds have left them without any emotion at all. There's even a few posts with shroomerites saying it, as well.
Well. Now you've met someone who's telling you thats bullshit.  Depression meds made NO difference whatsoever in my feelings...I still felt shitty EVERY day...They certainly didnt dull my feelings. If they did, I would have been eating them like candy.
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After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action. If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it. - Ernest Hemingway
If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it. In the law courts, in business, in government. There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent. -Cormac MacCarthy
He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God. - Aeschylus
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Muppet 
Nomadic Jester
Registered: 08/14/02
Posts: 28,785
Loc: (523) 327-2836
Last seen: 13 years, 2 months
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Re: Depression, myth thats called fact. [Re: ]
#2089550 - 11/10/03 01:48 PM (20 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Anyone I've ever known, without fail, has said depression meds have left them without any emotion at all.
and now you know one more...any medication I was ever given didn't ever do a damn thing to make me feel any better at all - at the most all they'd do is take away the depressed feeling without adding any good feelings to compensate, thereby leaving me a cold emotionless robot...and even then, that's only with the ones that actually did *something* anything at all (most of the time though, I might as well have been eating PEZ or something cause a lot of em didn't do a god damn thing period)
I've learned that mild meditation (and I'm not talking about full-lutus feet behind head kinda shit either...just basic run of the mill calming my mind and relaxing for a while type of shit) coupled with writting (e.g. something I love to do that keeps me busy during the day) has helped much more so then anything that was ever perscribed to me by a doctor...granted I still may be a bit of an emotional cripple, but at least I know damn well I'm in control now and I don't feel like I'm constantly balancing on a razor's edge anymore (which for me anyways is about a billion times favorable to what my life was like back in the day)
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 Ravings of a Madman
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Psilocybeingzz
Registered: 12/15/02
Posts: 14,463
Loc: International waters
Last seen: 11 years, 5 months
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Re: Depression, myth thats called fact. [Re: Muppet]
#2090026 - 11/10/03 04:45 PM (20 years, 5 months ago) |
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I am happy without meds, and at one point in my life I was told I need prozac, I didnt need it then and I dont need it now.(although like I said in an earlier post I took it forr 6 months!)
Exercise, good diet, and a real life(not weatching TV all day, hanging with friends, etc)herbs(peppermint and rosehips)
www.prozacspotlight.org
Edited by Psilocybeingzz (11/10/03 09:22 PM)
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The_Red_Crayon
Exposer of Truth
Registered: 08/13/03
Posts: 13,673
Loc: Smokey Mtns. TN 
Last seen: 6 years, 11 months
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Re: Depression, myth thats called fact. [Re: Psilocybeingzz]
#2090065 - 11/10/03 04:57 PM (20 years, 5 months ago) |
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Your getting your facts from Anti-Psychiatry need i say more.
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Oook
Oook!
Registered: 08/19/03
Posts: 533
Loc: England
Last seen: 19 years, 7 months
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Re: Depression, myth thats called fact. [Re: The_Red_Crayon]
#2090166 - 11/10/03 05:38 PM (20 years, 5 months ago) |
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Low seratonin levels are not the only reason for depression.
People cannot make glib statements about what you need to do to feel good, sure in theory it would work but peoples situations vary extremely.
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Twirling
Barred Spiral
Registered: 02/03/03
Posts: 2,468
Last seen: 2 years, 2 months
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Re: Depression, myth thats called fact. [Re: Oook]
#2090494 - 11/10/03 07:36 PM (20 years, 5 months ago) |
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Depression is a term used to describe a variety of symptoms found in people. It's way over simplified to say that either anti-depressents work or don't work. I've been severly depressed for long periods of time, and it was a combination of psychedelics, anti-depressents, and psychotherapy which helped me get out of it. Any of those alone wouldn't have done it, but having the three come together has helped me in plenty of ways.
Now I do agree that doctors often over-prescribe anti-depressents, because not everybody who describes themselves as depressed need anti-depressents. But they can be very benifical in treating and preventing future episodes of depression.
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The very nature of experience is ineffable; it transcends cognitive thought and intellectualized analysis. To be without experience is to be without an emotional knowledge of what the experience translates into. The desire for the understanding of what life is made of is the motivation that drives us all. Without it, in fear of the experiences what life can hold is among the greatest contradictions; to live in fear of death while not being alive.
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Psilocybeingzz
Registered: 12/15/02
Posts: 14,463
Loc: International waters
Last seen: 11 years, 5 months
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Re: Depression, myth thats called fact. [Re: Twirling]
#2090763 - 11/10/03 09:25 PM (20 years, 5 months ago) |
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the HYPOTHESIS!!
http://www.google.ca/search?q=the+hypoth...hl=en&meta=
http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&ie...earch&meta=
there is that enough???
its not just the anitpsych site
Keep in mind the reason sites like that exist is Pysch is not a complete science , and all to often the powers doctors have are abused
here is alna watt's take on it
(if you dont know alreay alan was a famous thinker of the 30's)
http://deoxy.org/audio/watts/monday.ra
pysch thinks it KNOWS ALL about the mind , it doesnt
so until it does , the doctors are the ones making BIG CLAIMS not me
I am saying WHOA, should we be dosing all these people with drugs that are still HYPOTHESIS??????
I think not
Edited by Psilocybeingzz (11/10/03 09:29 PM)
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Twirling
Barred Spiral
Registered: 02/03/03
Posts: 2,468
Last seen: 2 years, 2 months
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Re: Depression, myth thats called fact. [Re: Psilocybeingzz]
#2093420 - 11/11/03 04:52 PM (20 years, 5 months ago) |
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It's always going to be a hypothesis, it's the nature of how the mind works. It's like the theory of evolution or theory of gravity. It's just a working model to help explain how these things work. You can't prove them as facts. However, there has been plenty of proof of the effectiveness of anti-depressents, and they can be very helpful for some people.
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The very nature of experience is ineffable; it transcends cognitive thought and intellectualized analysis. To be without experience is to be without an emotional knowledge of what the experience translates into. The desire for the understanding of what life is made of is the motivation that drives us all. Without it, in fear of the experiences what life can hold is among the greatest contradictions; to live in fear of death while not being alive.
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ruskifile
droog
Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 258
Loc: nowhere
Last seen: 16 years, 4 months
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Re: Depression, myth thats called fact. [Re: Madtowntripper]
#2097092 - 11/12/03 12:23 PM (20 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Madtowntripper said:
Quote:
Yeah right. Anyone I've ever known, without fail, has said depression meds have left them without any emotion at all. There's even a few posts with shroomerites saying it, as well.
Well. Now you've met someone who's telling you thats bullshit. Depression meds made NO difference whatsoever in my feelings...I still felt shitty EVERY day...They certainly didnt dull my feelings. If they did, I would have been eating them like candy.
Well this definately happened to me on zoloft...removed every single human emotion I had (GOOD and bad)
Yeah I felt like shit every day too, but at least before I took the meds I still KNEW that I felt some emotion at all for my family, friends etc...whereas after taking them, sure, I felt not much at all. So I wasn't feeling horrible like before (which was fine) BUT also it removed all other feelings, including the ones which let me feel something at all for those people who I Theoretically knew I loved...but felt nothing for while on the tablets.
There was a family crisis at that time and I felt like a disembodied alien who was just observing these humans (who were apparently my family) while having no emotion of love, sympathy, any connection at all with them....well fuck that 
I cannot live zombiefied  feeling anything even pain was better than that...you may as well just top yourself and be done with it rather than exist as no-thing
--------------------
(zhukov in a previous life....)
2SER FM underground radio
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caolite
Ambient Drone
Registered: 09/28/03
Posts: 276
Loc: Second star on the right.
Last seen: 19 years, 10 months
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Re: Depression, myth thats called fact. [Re: ruskifile]
#2097784 - 11/12/03 03:05 PM (20 years, 5 months ago) |
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I should have taken time to read this whole thread instead of half of it, buuuuut:
I at first wanted to disagree with you, but at the same time I also agree that not much can be proven. I would also like to know if it is possible for us to know about "old school" depression. Why is depression something that seems to sweep the nation? Is it because everyone and their grandma is on prozac? The book prozac nation was cool, it was kind of like the bell jar, but the last chapter talks about how doctors give everyone prozac, or used to, like someone thinks to theirselves. I just broke up with my boy/girlfriend and now I am depressed, then they stay that way for a while, see a doc, and he gives them meds... its kind of crap.
Was there depression in the mideval times? Why wasn't there a plague of "sadness" then (granted it might be kind of hard to say that kind of info would have been in the realm of thought back then, which might prove another point)? I think this modern society is to blame, I mean people who live in large cities have an increased % chance for schitzoid disorders, how is a kid supposed to react when he heard the TV spout 3 different things all contrary to one another, and all claim to be true, WITH one another. Our diet, the way we operate in this modern world is just causing people as a whole to feel like shit.
Our bodies tend to reflect our environments, so even if nothign is wrong personally, for all you know your brain could still be processing all the horrible information in the news it just heard.
Maybe the medias portrayal of our world is causesing some serious problems as well.
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SoulSurfer
Killer of Giants
Registered: 10/23/03
Posts: 1,138
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 16 years, 8 months
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Re: Depression, myth thats called fact. [Re: caolite]
#2098001 - 11/12/03 04:31 PM (20 years, 5 months ago) |
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I'm going through this very problem at the moment, so perhaps I can add some perspective to this discussion. After taking an antidepressant for the last ten years I recently found that I had come to a point where I had no emotion, no feelings at all. A month ago my Doctor told me to stop taking them for a week so he could start me on some new kind of antidepressant. Within a few days of stopping I sunk into an unimaginable depressed state of mind, completely beyond my control, and I could barely function. Now whether this was from the years of taking the drugs or my own chemical imbalance I don't know, but it was not a simple matter of trying to "cheer myself up" or "change my lifestyle". I could feel the chemical imbalance in my brain and it was the most uncomfortable feeling. So now he put me on some other crap that doesn't seem to be helping much at all, and I'm really at a loss as to what to do next. I know he will want me to try something else, and I'm afraid if I don't I won't be able to get out of the depression. The funny thing is, when I take shrooms (which isn't often) I feel normal and I can see the whole situation for what it is, but over the next few weeks the feeling eventually fades and I sink back into the depression. Everything else in my life is going great, so I have no reason to feel this way. People can make generalizations about depression and I'm sure some of them are right, but not everyone is the same.
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Anonymous
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Re: Depression, myth thats called fact. [Re: ]
#2098808 - 11/12/03 07:50 PM (20 years, 5 months ago) |
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I've been on depression meds before and I didn't notice not feeling any emotions at all. It was more like the other way around.
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ruskifile
droog
Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 258
Loc: nowhere
Last seen: 16 years, 4 months
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Re: Depression, myth thats called fact. [Re: ]
#2100550 - 11/13/03 05:55 AM (20 years, 5 months ago) |
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Just shows how individual chemistry is so varied, huh 
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(zhukov in a previous life....)
2SER FM underground radio
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clam_dude
stranger in astrange land
Registered: 09/10/03
Posts: 1,717
Loc: twilight zone
Last seen: 6 years, 5 months
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Re: Depression, myth thats called fact. [Re: ruskifile]
#2103334 - 11/13/03 08:16 PM (20 years, 5 months ago) |
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This is gonna sound sort of corny. But in all honsety, taking up a musical instrument, or even listening to the right music is one of the most helpfull things for depression.
The key is finding what music is right for you. You can't just listen to any music. I mean some music makes me realy depressed. Stuff like Celine Dion, or maybe that band "train" or some other light popy crap that they play in the background at my work really makes me depressed. I'm not being funny.
But find the music that really trips your trigger. I would maybe not reccommend bands like Tool. Even thoughb they are wicked, they're probably not the best for getting over depression. Phish would be a good one though, or maybe some Lenny Breau guitar music. "Kind of Blue" my mr. miles is also good. Those are just some of my personal favorites.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but seems like music really has a very direct impact on one's emotions. More than language, or a painting, or any other art form. Anyway, that's about the topic.
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"I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais
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Psilocybeingzz
Registered: 12/15/02
Posts: 14,463
Loc: International waters
Last seen: 11 years, 5 months
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Re: Depression, myth thats called fact. [Re: clam_dude]
#2104903 - 11/14/03 03:19 AM (20 years, 5 months ago) |
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NO Clam dude , you are tottally right.
Personally music is medicatgion for me.
"Our diet, the way we operate in this modern world is just causing people as a whole to feel like shit.
Our bodies tend to reflect our environments, so even if nothign is wrong personally, for all you know your brain could still be processing all the horrible information in the news it just heard.
Maybe the medias portrayal of our world is causesing some serious problems as well."
BIN-------FUCKING-GO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Personally , I think some of the best writing on the subject is here.
www.adbusters.org
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windex
old hand
Registered: 06/27/01
Posts: 1,293
Last seen: 9 years, 10 months
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Re: Depression, myth thats called fact. [Re: Psilocybeingzz]
#2108955 - 11/15/03 12:03 PM (20 years, 5 months ago) |
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> which means the people on meds are the "lab rats" so to speak.
Anyone that visits a doctor in gerneral is a lab rat, youll notice being a doctor is never refered to as a profesion, but a practice. And it means just that, they are practicing "fixing" people.
well saying never refered to is a bit misleading, but technicly they are supposed to be reffered to as practices.
Edited by windex (11/15/03 12:04 PM)
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 BrainFarmer
Farmicist
Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 547
Loc: lounging betwixt lobes...
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Re: Depression, myth thats called fact. [Re: Psilocybeingzz]
#2110065 - 11/15/03 08:30 PM (20 years, 5 months ago) |
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Oy, where to start? i suppose a counter-link would be a good place...
http://biopsychiatry.com/
i've spent a little time at anti-psych before, but to me their ideas seem to be in line with the family who refuses treatment for a child because "god" wills it.
ok, here's for the personal experience. i've suffered from frequent major depression and chronic dysthymia for ten years. my first suicide attempt was at age 13. i didn't really have any major troubles in my childhood. i knew all along that there was no real external reason for me to be so miserable. to the contrary i was always one of the smartest and most creative kids, but at some point during adolescense my energy and focus just faded away. i used to draw all damn day as a kid, as a teen i would get frusterated before i even started.
eventually i simply began to accept that i would most likely never reach my full potential. i'm not weak willed, however simple daily tasks required a ridiculous amount of effort. i was put on prozac for a few months, but no one really believed i had a problem at that point. not my parents, my shrink, my teachers. "he's so smart, he just needs to put forth a little effort, thats all" "its just a phase" yadayada. after another year or so i found myself very dysthymic again, but in denial this time. it wasn't until several months and the breakup of a long time girlfriend threw me into a major depression that i even accepted that i had a problem. in cunjunction with two more suicide attempts and a breif stay in the psych ward (my roomate was hoarding bananas in a paper bag), i was first placed on Zoloft, then on wellbutrin as well. aside from a couple good weeks, zoloft did very little. wellbutrin on the other hand was very effective in treating my energy and concentration issues (while never officially diagnosed, i feel as though i have some ADDish symtoms as well).
one thing that hasn't been mentioned yet is that depression responds not only to seratonin oriented treatment, but also to medications affecting the domamine and norepinephrine systems. wellbutrin modulates the later two. when an ssri results in feelings of emotional numbness and sexual dysfuction, the addition of a mild stimulant, such as wellbutrin or ritalin can make all the difference.
after taking welbutrin & zoloft for a year i stopped taking them after my prescription and insurance ran out. by that time, however, i was already experiencing some symptoms. i spent the next few years in a hopless struggle to modulate my mood and energy levels with nutrition, meditation, marijuana abstinance, exercise, music, art, and everything else i could think of. after another relationship went to hell, this time with a girl i lived with, i came to a simple choice. either stop wasting resources and feed the worms, or keep taking medication after medication until i found something that would work. it was another year or so of utter hell before finding the right combo.
for the last year i've taken 40mg celexa and 400mg welbutrin every day and i honestly owe my life to it. it was like the last ten years was a dark dream in which i became so old i dreaded waking up. now that i have i find myself imbued with an awareness and passion i only remember feeling in my childhood.
everyone's experience, obviously, will be different. for me it was daily regimin of brutal torture. blinding, debilitating pain in surges and waves all day everyday. spending no less than half the day in tears, every day, for months on end. the only thing that kept me alive was the knowlege that i had been blessed with a rare mind and to throw it away without pushing as hard and as far as i could would be selfish, simply put.
as far as whether or not depression is a "disease" is entirely a matter of definition. without question, we currently live in an environment very different from the one in which our species evolved. we simply weren't designed to life the lives we currently enjoy. even if this is the case however, modern life as we know it is going anywhere anytime soon so it's only sensible to treat the syptoms. regardless of the cause, depression very distructive in every aspect, both personal and social, both mental and physical. depressed patients have low/abnormal glucose metabolism in the brain. there has also been significant research showing damage and/or a decrease in volume of the hippocampus.
now, as for the word "theory," there are several theories of depression. which is to say that there are several notions about what causes depression and how it should be treated. psych(ology/aiatry is a science, and it's theories are based on observation, logic, and experimentation. that which is being observed, however, is reality.
damn that was long. some of them posts got me a little steamed, to say the least . but thanks to modern medicine i'm able to let go of that anger and smile
peace
BF
PS: while i've endorsed the use of medication, i in no way endorse the business practices of the pharmacuetical industry.
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Gate Gate Paragate Parasamgate Bodhisvah
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fourHoDmt
overclock yourbrain
Registered: 04/26/03
Posts: 148
Last seen: 19 years, 11 months
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Re: Depression, myth thats called fact. [Re: BrainFarmer]
#2110991 - 11/16/03 06:21 AM (20 years, 5 months ago) |
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depression is not a conspiracy theory. but you are right about it being overdiagnosed and treated in the wrong manner.
whoever said that ssri's have been 'proven' more effective than placebo: look at who funded whichever studies you're looking at. more than likely it is funded by either the company that makes the drug in question or a pharmeceutical interest group. the last study i looked at that was funded by a 3rd party showed ssri's to be 2 or 3% more effective than placebo. definitely not enough to be prescribed as much as they are.
NATURAL ALTERNATIVES FOR COMBATTING DEPRESSION: exercise, dietary changes like greatly reducing the amount of refined sugar you eat, sex, [url="http://www.erowid.org/smarts/tryptophan/tryptophan.shtml"]tryptophan[/url], high quality fish oil or cod liver oil. might check out www.mercola.com , there's a huge wealth of health info there although some of it is kind of strange.
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the_fool
Stranger
Registered: 10/09/03
Posts: 4
Loc: Land of the free (some re...
Last seen: 19 years, 9 months
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 Re: Depression, myth thats called fact. [Re: Psilocybeingzz]
#2111064 - 11/16/03 07:48 AM (20 years, 5 months ago) |
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alright, you go to a psychiatrist. as recently as last year, drug companies offered "incentives" for doctors to prescribe their medications. so a troubled kid comes in to your office and has a plethora of symptoms that could fit any of several diagnoses. a diagnosis can be hard to make, even for a trained psychologist or psychiatrist, especially on the first few visits with a patient, due to comorbidity as well as symptoms which apply to several different potential diagnoses. so you walk out of there with some "happy" pill. why that particular one? because if the doctor prescribes so many of these "happy" pills, he gets an all expense paid trip to where he listens to some rep talk for a whopping two hours and eats a catered meal and stays in a nice ass hotel. or some other kickback, monetary or otherwise. september or so of 2002 the government warned prescription pill makers and the psychiatry community of this, though i'm unsure if it is enforced at this time.
bottom line is the dollar sign, and don't forget it.
the pills they gave me never ended up changing anything, and when i learned about the kickback BS (both as a psych major and an inquisitive patient to my former psychologist) i stopped messing with it altogether. not gonna fark up my brain chemistry unless i at least have a good time doing it.
either way, i wouldn't go as far as saying that the whole serotonin theory is BS, that is simply ignorant. doctors don't know everything, and if they say they do they should go back to grad school and freshen up on their research. don't listen to the greedy drug companies, don't believe what you read on a website that is made by someone who has obvious issues with said drug companies (or who-/whatever), start reading up on current psychology research (in scientific journals, NOT the media) if you want to learn the facts.
i've known people who swear by their prozac as if it's a friggin' religion...if it makes you happy and you have the money to throw away, i say eat the pills. but there are much better ways to feel better, which have already been discussed by someone or another back up the line a bit.
sorry if this is old news to ya'll...tired and rambling, tired and rambling, tired and rambling, done.
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[insert witty signature here]
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Entelle
wanderer
Registered: 11/05/03
Posts: 64
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 20 years, 1 month
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Re: Depression, myth thats called fact. [Re: the_fool]
#2112906 - 11/16/03 08:22 PM (20 years, 5 months ago) |
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everyone is different, and while pills can help some, simple life changes help others. for myself, i would lean toward trying the changes first. certainly our environment has a lot to do with all this, and pharm comp kickbacks are morally reprehensable.
too many people just want the quick fix, and dont want to work for it. i have found, however, what is easy is not always worthwhile, and what is hard can be the most rewarding of all... (this applies to relationships esp.)
happiness is not a given, it is a reward for balance of life.
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"Not all those who wander are lost."
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