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Re: Family guy is so misinformed [Re: Entropymancer]
    #11639129 -

Entropymancer said:
Depends on your definition of physical dependence, since neurochemistry is altered in such a way that a person desires the drug and consequently experiences negative symptoms as a result of not having those neural pathways tickled. I don't tend to distinguish between physical and psychological dependence because of the overlap. 

But yeah, amphetamine won't produce the extreme sort of withdrawal syndrome you see with opiates or benzos or alcohol.  It's more akin to the withdrawal syndromes seen with people addicted to cocaine or cannabis.


Pretty much hits the nail on the head. Stimulant w/ds are far more psychological than they are physical and stimulants are generally referred to in the literature as not producing physical dependence.


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Re: Family guy is so misinformed [Re: LSDreamer]
    #11639135 -

LSDreamer said:
and stimulants are generally referred to in the literature as not producing physical dependence.




LOL tell that to a meth addict when they have gone 48 hours without their fix. They will be shaking sweating you name it. Thats not just because they cant stop thinking about it.


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Re: Family guy is so misinformed [Re: DeathCompany]
    #11639141 -

I think that's considered more "crashing from a stimulant binge" than w/ding.


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Re: Family guy is so misinformed [Re: LSDreamer]
    #11639151 -

Well a serious meth addicts cant go a day without getting their high or they start withdrawling.



but what ever you call it or consider it, it is still a serious sign of physical dependence or effects of the drug. For example if they took more they would no longer be experiencing those negative effects.


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Edited by DeathCompany (12/12/09 11:01 PM)

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Re: Family guy is so misinformed [Re: DeathCompany]
    #11639170 -

Interesting point of dispute.  Wikipedia says "A wide range of drugs whilst not causing a true physical dependence can still cause withdrawal symptoms or rebound effects during dosage reduction or especially abrupt or rapid withdrawal.[17] These can include stimulants,[18][19][20][21], antidepressants,[22][23] anticonvulsants,[24][25][26] steroidal drugs and antiparkinsonian drugs," but I'm unclear as to how 'true' physical dependence is defined.


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: Family guy is so misinformed [Re: DeathCompany]
    #11639177 -

If you took at least a gram of quality cocaine every day for month ( and eventually enough once you got a tolerance) and stopped cold turkey you  would most definitely without a doubt feel physical discomfort for a few days until you took more. That is physical withdrawls.


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Re: Family guy is so misinformed [Re: deCypher]
    #11639186 -

deCypher said:
Interesting point of dispute.  Wikipedia says "A wide range of drugs whilst not causing a true physical dependence can still cause withdrawal symptoms or rebound effects during dosage reduction or especially abrupt or rapid withdrawal.[17] These can include stimulants,[18][19][20][21], antidepressants,[22][23] anticonvulsants,[24][25][26] steroidal drugs and antiparkinsonian drugs," but I'm unclear as to how 'true' physical dependence is defined.



In my opinion physical dependence is when you stop taking a drug, feel like shit, and then require more of the drug to feel better again weather your taking enough to get high or not)


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Edited by DeathCompany (12/12/09 11:10 PM)

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Re: Family guy is so misinformed [Re: DeathCompany]
    #11639204 -

DeathCompany, do you believe that cannabis is physically addictive?

Personally I'd agree with calling both amphetamines and cannabis physically addictive, as the withdrawal syndrome presents as a relatively characteristic physical syndrome if daily use is sufficiently high.  But I wouldn't classify these withdrawals as being on the same order of magnitude as opiates... which isn't to say that amphetamines aren't as addictive as opiates; addiction potential and severity of withdrawal syndromes are very seperate issues.


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Bufotenine Yopo/Cebil Info | Guide to Hunting/Using Fly Agarics
Good Drug Books
PCPiHKAL|Rhodium

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Re: Family guy is so misinformed [Re: DeathCompany]
    #11639205 -

Perhaps a true physical dependence is defined by visible physical symptoms like vomiting and tremors?  All the literature I've read on the topic of cocaine abuse has stated that the reason it took so long to accept cocaine as addictive was because users never experienced true physical withdrawal symptoms.  I agree with you that abruptly stopping coke use will feel extremely unpleasant but if the withdrawal is not outwardly manifested then it should be classified as psychological.


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: Family guy is so misinformed [Re: deCypher]
    #11639216 -

But that's clearly not the definition that was being used in the wiki you quoted, or else they wouldn't have antidepressants on the list of drugs that don't present "true physical dependence".


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Bufotenine Yopo/Cebil Info | Guide to Hunting/Using Fly Agarics
Good Drug Books
PCPiHKAL|Rhodium

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Re: Family guy is so misinformed [Re: Entropymancer]
    #11639223 -

See, I have no idea... what the hell is the definition of "true physical dependence"?  I do know that a lot of the literature I've read has stated that amphetamines and cocaine don't cause physical dependence; this categorization is usually restricted to opiates, benzos, alcohol, and nicotine.

Now I'm truly puzzled.  :strokebeard:


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: Family guy is so misinformed [Re: deCypher]
    #11639237 -

I think it's pretty much just an arbitrary distinction.  There doesn't seem to be any clear line that can be drawn here.  That's why I just look at anything that produces a withdrawal syndrome as producing physical dependence.


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Bufotenine Yopo/Cebil Info | Guide to Hunting/Using Fly Agarics
Good Drug Books
PCPiHKAL|Rhodium

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Re: Family guy is so misinformed [Re: deCypher]
    #11639240 -

ROFL, according to that same Wiki article, "SSRI drugs, which have an important use as antidepressants, are not considered to cause physical dependence, but it's generally accepted that they cause a discontinuation syndrome" where a discontinuation syndrome seems to be pretty much identical with withdrawal.  :wtf:


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: Family guy is so misinformed [Re: LSDreamer]
    #11639250 -

LSDreamer said:
Entropymancer said:
Depends on your definition of physical dependence, since neurochemistry is altered in such a way that a person desires the drug and consequently experiences negative symptoms as a result of not having those neural pathways tickled. I don't tend to distinguish between physical and psychological dependence because of the overlap. 

But yeah, amphetamine won't produce the extreme sort of withdrawal syndrome you see with opiates or benzos or alcohol.  It's more akin to the withdrawal syndromes seen with people addicted to cocaine or cannabis.


Pretty much hits the nail on the head. Stimulant w/ds are far more psychological than they are physical and stimulants are generally referred to in the literature as not producing physical dependence.


Yes but at what point do you draw the line between physical and mental dependencies ?  If something is so mentally dependant that they experience physical withdrawl to it wouldn't that be considered physical?

Caffeine is unarguably a physically addictive stimulant. And some addicts will do crazy things to get coke or meth. Theres also alot of RC stimulants that are physically addictive.


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Para todos todo, para nosotros nada

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Re: Family guy is so misinformed [Re: deCypher]
    #11639273 -

deCypher said:
where a discontinuation syndrome seems to be pretty much identical with withdrawal.  :wtf:


Oh yeah. I have a friend whose dad is on an SSRI... after he missed a dose one day, his wife told the doctor that she wouldn't let him stop taking the drug unless he had some inpatient rehab for it.  Apparently it gets pretty ugly.


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Bufotenine Yopo/Cebil Info | Guide to Hunting/Using Fly Agarics
Good Drug Books
PCPiHKAL|Rhodium

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Re: Family guy is so misinformed [Re: Entropymancer]
    #11639282 -

When I discontinued my low dose Lexapro, I had brain zaps for 3-4 days. Was pretty disconcerting.


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Re: Family guy is so misinformed [Re: Entropymancer]
    #11639288 -

Entropymancer said:
DeathCompany, do you believe that cannabis is physically addictive?

.



I have not read much on the subject and I don't haven't smoked weed in years but in my experience with stimulants like meth and a little coke, the comedown and negative effects are quite physically uncomfortable.. From what i rememebr i never got much as far as physical withdrawls from mj maybe just having trouble sleeping and irritability.. So I guess weed is physically addictive but not on such a high level as stimulants.


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Re: Family guy is so misinformed [Re: Entropymancer]
    #11639297 -

Entropymancer said:
I think it's pretty much just an arbitrary distinction.  There doesn't seem to be any clear line that can be drawn here.  That's why I just look at anything that produces a withdrawal syndrome as producing physical dependence.



I completely agree.


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Re: Family guy is so misinformed [Re: DeathCompany]
    #11639313 -

DeathCompany said:
Entropymancer said:
DeathCompany, do you believe that cannabis is physically addictive?

.



I have not read much on the subject and I don't haven't smoked weed in years but in my experience with stimulants like meth and a little coke, the comedown and negative effects are quite physically uncomfortable.. From what i rememebr i never got much as far as physical withdrawls from mj maybe just having trouble sleeping and irritability.. So I guess weed is physically addictive but not on such a high level as stimulants.


I've smoked cannabis actively for the last 8 years. I smoke it once or twice a week on average and not once have I experienced any form of withdrawl when I had to go without.


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Para todos todo, para nosotros nada

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Re: Family guy is so misinformed [Re: DeathCompany]
    #11639316 -

edit: and for the record i have always told people from what Ive seen through them  and what people have said that weed is physically addictive. I just have never read any actual documented information


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