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One of the descriptors of life is that it necessarily dies

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are you trying to tell me that ice is living?

Poid said:

One of the descriptors of life is that it necessarily dies (e.g.- ice necessarily melts at room temperature), and once it does, it will never go back. It's pretty simple, really.

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well... if the room reached 32°F or 0°C the water would freeze again

Charos said:

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One of the descriptors of life is that it necessarily dies

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This is the only point I don't quite follow you on, overall I agree with what you're saying...but I've seen all sorts of viable, biologically based or dictionary based definitions that don't mention that as a prerequisite at all...*shrug* no big deal or anything, I just don't know if I agree with that specific postulate.

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theMERRYiguana said:

are you trying to tell me that ice is living?

Poid said:

One of the descriptors of life is that it necessarily dies (e.g.- ice necessarily melts at room temperature), and once it does, it will never go back. It's pretty simple, really.

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well... if the room reached 32?F or 0?C the water would freeze again

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That was a weak analogy, I admit, but I'm high on my klonopin right now, and feel real drowsy and relaxed, so I didn't really feal like typing up my usual well thought-out articulate responses.

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I'm pretty sure the mainstream scientific community agrees with this--did you not read the Wikipedia articles I provided?

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Charos said:

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I'm pretty sure the mainstream scientific community agrees with this--did you not read the Wikipedia articles I provided?

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*nod* and then checked the cite's that they used (that's why I used the full definition in that other post)...the wikipedia articles were specifically what I was responding to in

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/11293093#11293093

From what I've seen, there IS no absolute standard definition for life...there are always exceptions, reproduction is listed far more frequently than death as a prerequisite to life in the definitions I've seen and yet I can name off half a dozen species that no one argues are alive who can't reproduce...which biological citation in specific lists that as a necessity anyway?

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So do you agree that dying isn't a requirement of living?

Charos said:

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I'm pretty sure the mainstream scientific community agrees with this--did you not read the Wikipedia articles I provided?

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*nod* and then checked the cite's that they used (that's why I used the full definition in that other post)...the wikipedia articles were specifically what I was responding to in

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/11293093#11293093

From what I've seen, there IS no absolute standard definition for life...there are always exceptions, reproduction is listed far more frequently than death as a prerequisite to life in the definitions I've seen and yet I can name off half a dozen species that no one argues are alive who can't reproduce...which biological citation in specific lists that as a necessity anyway?

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So you're asserting that one of the qualities of life isn't that it necessarily must die? What the hell do you think life is, anyways?

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So you're asserting that one of the qualities of life isn't that it necessarily must die?

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What the hell do you think life is, anyways?

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That's the same question I just asked you like I said above:

"From what I've seen, there IS no absolute standard definition for life"

We know what qualities life GENERALLY has, but there's no hard-and fast definitions I've seen that's absolute.  When I use the term, I suppose the specific definition I'm referring to is the first in that list:

1 a : the quality that distinguishes a vital and functional being from a dead body b : a principle or force that is considered to underlie the distinctive quality of animate beings c : an organismic state characterized by capacity for metabolism, growth, reaction to stimuli, and reproduction

Even there though, there's problems (like the one I pointed out about Mules, or worker ants, or bees which cannot reproduce and are still definitely considered alive)...but that's the closest definitive answer I can give.  Now, I understand when you use the term you may be using ANOTHER definition (one of the problems of these mucky words like Life or Person is that people may be using the exact same words and mean entirely different things), but that one I just posted (in particular A and B) are about as close to absolute as I think I can get on it.

Charos said:

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So you're asserting that one of the qualities of life isn't that it necessarily must die?

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Close, I'm saying I've seen nothing authoritative which lists that as a necessity to be alive.  It is a standard norm for sure, but a requirement?  Don't really see why that would be.

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That is just part of the definition for the term 'life', just like part of what defines a male human organism is that is has a penis.

Charos said:

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What the hell do you think life is, anyways?

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That's the same question I just asked you like I said above:

"From what I've seen, there IS no absolute standard definition for life"

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From what I've learned, there is.

Charos said:

We know what qualities life GENERALLY has, but there's no hard-and fast definitions I've seen that's absolute.

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Nothing is absolute; if you're trying to disprove a widely accepted scientific theory here on the Shroomery, go ahead, I'm not stopping you.

Charos said:

When I use the term, I suppose the specific definition I'm referring to is the first in that list:

1 a : the quality that distinguishes a vital and functional being from a dead body b : a principle or force that is considered to underlie the distinctive quality of animate beings c : an organismic state characterized by capacity for metabolism, growth, reaction to stimuli, and reproduction

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These are some of the other qualities of life, yes.

Charos said:

Even there though, there's problems (like the one I pointed out about Mules, or worker ants, or bees which cannot reproduce and are still definitely considered alive)

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Can you please provide a reliable source for this? Sorry, but I guess I'm so dumb that I haven't heard of this...

Charos said:

...but that's the closest definitive answer I can give.  Now, I understand when you use the term you may be using ANOTHER definition (one of the problems of these mucky words like Life or Person is that people may be using the exact same words and mean entirely different things), but that one I just posted (in particular A and B) are about as close to absolute as I think I can get on it.

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This is why its paramount to define terms when debating.