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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: Prison or Freedom? [Re: mozhual]
    #11198983 -

If it's fucking rocket science then the people who need it won't understand it.

But not to worry as it was a joke, that would never happen here unless I was a mod.:satansmoking:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Prison or Freedom? [Re: Icelander]
    #11199023 -

Hehe


--------------------
"Nature is like a sculptor constantly improving upon her work, but to do so she chisels away at living flesh." H.K. Bloom

"Is God willing to prevent evil but not able? Then he is not omnipotent...
Is he able but not willing? Then he is malevolent...
Is he both able, and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him god." Epicurus c. 300 BCE

"When I brought up the fact that 'No drug is good or bad, they're all just A drug, what someone does with them determines the postive or negative outcome. Look at medicine, those are drugs' Reponse was that 'well medicine solves problems' well so does LSD." -Learningtofly

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Re: Prison or Freedom? [Re: Icelander]
    #11199189 -

No

Neurons sending out information?

Where are they sending it?

You could try using another verb between neuron and information. In doing so, you will undoubtedly consider what you think the case is. Well, if you have an idea of what neural information equates with consciousness, please share it because it is currently beyond modern science and philosophy.

Psychologists study the extent that consciousness correlates with neural activity by studying behaviors that theoretically correlate with consciousness, and correlating them with brain-radiation that they have correlated with neural activity to a degree. The multiple layers of inference used in any study of consciousness leaves us still without the ability to put it down to 'natural' causes (those that we can understand by a set of trends and tendencies).

Consciousness remains a puzzle. However, unconsciousness of a sort does not.

We know that purely physical force can cause unconsciousness. Thus we know that consciousness at least needs certain physical aspects of the brain to be working properly in order to subsist.


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Re: Prison or Freedom? [Re: Noteworthy]
    #11199222 -

ok


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Prison or Freedom? [Re: mozhual]
    #11199351 -

mozhual said:
Please don't, it's hardly an accurate description(and I forgot to add that it's only generally accepted as such in humans), but for the sake of this argument it is sufficient. There are essentially three brains in each human, reptilian, mammalian, and primate. The primate one is the only one that would contain consciousness by all relevant definitions. But it is built on top of the other two brains and thus shares the same neural pathways, so damage to any part of your brain can severely or mildly affect conscious thought.


I disagree. I think that consciousness is just as likely to be in other animals and thus is a process of the inner brain.

I think that the 'primate brain' is necessary for self identity and self awareness in primates.

But self awareness is not the same as consciousness... self awareness is a particular content of information being processed ultimately by the 'lower' brain areas.

This highlights another issue with studying consciousness - consciousness cannot really be measured by asking someone whether they were conscious or not, because all they can tell you is what they remember. It is likely that consciousness is always occuring, but sometimes does not feed information into memory, so subsequent moments feel as if those events never occured.


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Re: Prison or Freedom? [Re: Noteworthy]
    #11199694 -

They send the information to other neurons which forms a neural net, they are part of an entelechy.
Quote:
There's a strange concept in the philosophy of science called an "entelechy." An entelechy is something complex that emerges when you put a large number of simple objects together. Examine one molecule of water in a vacuum, and you'll be utterly bored by the lack of activity in your vacuum tube. Pour a bunch of molecules into a glass, and a new phenomenon crops up--a ring of ripples on the water's surface. Combine enough glasses of water in a big enough basin and you'll end up with something entirely different: an ocean. Take the 26 letters of the English alphabet, lay them out in front of you, and you'll have a set of small squiggles, each of which evokes just one or two specific sounds. String a few million together in precisely the proper order and you'll have the collected works of Shakespeare

Excerpt from The Lucifer Principle: A Scientific Expedition into the Forces of History.

Just because we can't perfectly explain it does not mean there are some supernatural explanations for it(see Occam's Razor, and no that's not necessarily directed at you Noteworthy).

This
Quote:
consciousness correlates with neural activity by studying behaviors that theoretically correlate with consciousness, and correlating them with brain-radiation that they have correlated with neural activity to a degree.

is gibberish.

Quote:
The multiple layers of inference used in any study of consciousness leaves us still without the ability to put it down to 'natural' causes (those that we can understand by a set of trends and tendencies).

Horridly untrue, what ever the hell would lead you to believe that?

Quote:
multiple layers of inference

lets break this down for a second, to make sure I understand you correctly: mulitple- many,several; layers- depths or levels; inference- to derive by reasoning, conclude or judge from premises or evidence, to guess, speculate, and in Logic:
a. the process of deriving the strict logical consequences of assumed premises.
b. the process of arriving at some conclusion that, though it is not logically derivable from the assumed premises, possesses some degree of probability relative to the premises.
c. a proposition reached by a process of inference.

So this amounts to either: many levels of speculation or assumed premises or (hopefully) reasoning and conclusions draw from evidence.
Lets see that supporting evidence.

More to come, in the mean time you should look into Dennett's book for further referenceConsciousness explained


--------------------
"Nature is like a sculptor constantly improving upon her work, but to do so she chisels away at living flesh." H.K. Bloom

"Is God willing to prevent evil but not able? Then he is not omnipotent...
Is he able but not willing? Then he is malevolent...
Is he both able, and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him god." Epicurus c. 300 BCE

"When I brought up the fact that 'No drug is good or bad, they're all just A drug, what someone does with them determines the postive or negative outcome. Look at medicine, those are drugs' Reponse was that 'well medicine solves problems' well so does LSD." -Learningtofly

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Re: Prison or Freedom? [Re: Noteworthy]
    #11199792 -

To continue talking we have to acknowledge that through out the conversation two radically different definitions of consciousness have been used. Neither definition is incorrect. You are using the general definition of consciousness: Consciousness is subjective experience or awareness or wakefulness or the executive control system of the mind. What I am continually referring to is a human consciousness, self aware and reasoning consciousness or to put in another way, consciousness that is aware of its and other consciousnesses(something unique to humans).

Now to add to my previous post, here is an excerpt from Dennett's book Consciousness Explained that is highly appropriate:
Quote:
The phenomena of human consciousness have been explained in the preceding chapters in terms of the operations of a virtual machine," a sort of evolved (and evolving) computer program that shapes the activities of the brain. There is no Cartesian Theater; there are just Multiple Drafts composed by processes of content fixation playing various semi-independent roles in the brain's larger economy of controlling a human body's Journey through life



--------------------
"Nature is like a sculptor constantly improving upon her work, but to do so she chisels away at living flesh." H.K. Bloom

"Is God willing to prevent evil but not able? Then he is not omnipotent...
Is he able but not willing? Then he is malevolent...
Is he both able, and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him god." Epicurus c. 300 BCE

"When I brought up the fact that 'No drug is good or bad, they're all just A drug, what someone does with them determines the postive or negative outcome. Look at medicine, those are drugs' Reponse was that 'well medicine solves problems' well so does LSD." -Learningtofly

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Re: Prison or Freedom? [Re: mozhual]
    #11201264 -

hey mozhual you keep babbling here but you didn't answer the questions...


you can mathematically explain the material but can you explain mathematically the soul?
if your brain can't understand and won't agree with what not logical, can it be that this is not right?
how can you argue with what bad for me and good for you and agree with it, to make you happy and me miserable?

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Re: Prison or Freedom? [Re: PsyAlien]
    #11201322 -

PsyAlien said:
TheBalance said:
Quote:
did someone said it's match?
how can it be rematch?
you trying hit when i'm not ready?
beware you weaselly fighter
my soul is bowl
and you are on the edge to fall.


Indeed its a strike anywhere.
Prepare for fifth grade foursquare.
Nightmare glare warfare.
Ready?  Steady.
No fighter just brighter.
Fell like Humpty's eggshell
Then back up the wall to ring the Liberty bell.
Elevator, ladder, or stairwell.


don't say the pointless words
just hit to kill me.
ooo by the way,
if i'm still alive,
the nightmare,
and the glare of warfare
that you bring upon me,
don't you thing
that is my idea,
to put the prove
to bring the boooooooooom!
and if you so much brighter
then with you,
i gonna light her,
to see the earth on fire
and put you in retire.



:uptosomething:

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Re: Prison or Freedom? [Re: TheBalance]
    #11202086 -

no way. you got to be joking?:blush:

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Re: Prison or Freedom? [Re: mozhual]
    #11202227 -

mozhual said:
1. Just because we can't perfectly explain it does not mean there are some supernatural explanations for it(see Occam's Razor, and no that's not necessarily directed at you Noteworthy).

2. This
Quote:
consciousness correlates with neural activity by studying behaviors that theoretically correlate with consciousness, and correlating them with brain-radiation that they have correlated with neural activity to a degree.

is gibberish.

Quote:
The multiple layers of inference used in any study of consciousness leaves us still without the ability to put it down to 'natural' causes (those that we can understand by a set of trends and tendencies).

Horridly untrue, what ever the hell would lead you to believe that?

3.
Quote:
multiple layers of inference

lets break this down for a second, to make sure I understand you correctly: mulitple- many,several; layers- depths or levels; inference- to derive by reasoning, conclude or judge from premises or evidence, to guess, speculate, and in Logic:
a. the process of deriving the strict logical consequences of assumed premises.
b. the process of arriving at some conclusion that, though it is not logically derivable from the assumed premises, possesses some degree of probability relative to the premises.
c. a proposition reached by a process of inference.

4.So this amounts to either: many levels of speculation or assumed premises or (hopefully) reasoning and conclusions draw from evidence.
Lets see that supporting evidence.

More to come, in the mean time you should look into Dennett's book for further referenceConsciousness explained


1.Just because you have some natural laws that work enough for you to be satisfied, does not mean that those natural laws can be used to explain every single thing both understood and not understood.

2.You think it is gibberish, yet you are flaunting Dennet's book 'consciousness explained'? pff...
There is no gibberish in that sentance, just the repetition of a significant verb. You see, in science, correlations are made. When studying things like consciousness, scientists must try to correlate consciousness with something else. However, in order to observe consciousness you need to already have a construct that you assume correlates with consciousness, or else you would not be able to say that you are studying consciousness.

3.Just because I replied to your post in criticism does not mean you have to disrespect your own intellect.

You honestly cannot understand that paragraph?

But Because I want you to understand, rather than live in ignorance, I shall expound:

When you make an inference, you take certain information and use it to assert other information, on the basis of your original information. If you use this inferred information to make further inferences, then you have two layers of inference. If you use one inductive conclusion to make a second inductive conclusion, the strenght of the final conclusion is necessarily weakened by the 'levels of inference'. It doesn't matter that you have not read a popular philosopher use those words, because they make unambigious sense.

4. Do you study logic? You should know the difference between deductive and inductive logic, and how it fits into modern science with regards to statistical significance?

If so, what is hard to understand? We don't know what consciousness is, and have no way of measuring it? thus our study of it will always rely on layers of inference that take us further from certainty than the other earthly sciences


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Re: Prison or Freedom? [Re: PsyAlien]
    #11202629 -

PsyAlien said:
Like a humble?
No.
Like this time its not an option to fumble.
A fuckman can cause you to crumble.
Your soul is a bowl.
Leave the talking to the indole.:mushroom2:


did someone said it's match?
how can it be rematch?
you trying hit when i'm not ready?
beware you weaselly fighter
my soul is bowl
and you are on the edge to fall.


yes it's fall and you are about to fall
into winter when it's cold y'all
your soul got flushed down
the toilet bowl


--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.

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Re: Prison or Freedom? [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #11202760 -

Quote:
yes it's fall and you are about to fall
into winter when it's cold y'all
your soul got flushed down
the toilet bowl


Down the toilet and through the pipes,
Up from the bottom and supported by stipes.:mushroom2:
The 'treatment facility' stinks.
The wanderer rethinks.

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Re: Prison or Freedom? [Re: Noteworthy]
    #11205786 -

You are saying that "consciousness is comparable to or relates to neural activity by studying behaviors(neural activity) that in theory are comparable to or relate to consciousness." That is basically circular logic and fails to provide a better understanding of anything.

You can't say consciousness correlates to neural activity by studying neural activity (behavior as you should know by now is stored in neurons and represented by neural activity and therefore can be reduced to neural activity) that theoretically correlates to consciousness, and think you have a solid argument. A can not be said to relate to B because B theoretically relates to A, and relating them(assuming both) to C that they have related to B to an extent.

Still not clear whether you are implying that in this study it is radiation damage done to certain areas of the brain or something ridiculous like the brain radiates. But I am working from the assumption you mean brain damage.

Quote:
When you make an inference, you take certain information and use it to assert other information, on the basis of your original information.

That is reasoning, the third definition I listed and took into consideration. It honestly sounds like you are implying inference has only one meaning.

Quote:
If you use one inductive conclusion to make a second inductive conclusion, the strenght of the final conclusion is necessarily weakened by the 'levels of inference'. It doesn't matter that you have not read a popular philosopher use those words, because they make unambigious sense.

By evidence I simply mean the list of inferences that led someone to accept this as a rational conclusion. If it makes sense, fine, but as of right now it doesn't even begin to.

Do you know what inductive reasoning means?:
"Induction, also known as inductive reasoning or inductive logic, is a type of reasoning which involves moving from a set of specific facts to a general conclusion.[1] It can also be seen as a form of theory-building, in which specific facts are used to create a theory that explains relationships between the facts and allows prediction of future knowledge." You aren't presenting any facts and your theory certainly doesn't help to predict future knowledge, if anything it's the exact opposite. Your view of consciousness is completely unapproachable and if anything impedes science.

"The premises of an inductive logical argument indicate some degree of support (inductive probability) for the conclusion but do not entail it; i.e. they do not ensure its truth." By definition you are presenting factually something which is most definitely not entirely true.

How is your grasp of memetics?


--------------------
"Nature is like a sculptor constantly improving upon her work, but to do so she chisels away at living flesh." H.K. Bloom

"Is God willing to prevent evil but not able? Then he is not omnipotent...
Is he able but not willing? Then he is malevolent...
Is he both able, and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him god." Epicurus c. 300 BCE

"When I brought up the fact that 'No drug is good or bad, they're all just A drug, what someone does with them determines the postive or negative outcome. Look at medicine, those are drugs' Reponse was that 'well medicine solves problems' well so does LSD." -Learningtofly

Edited by mozhual (10/08/09 05:03 AM)

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Re: Prison or Freedom? [Re: mozhual]
    #11205880 -

I don't understand what youre saying...

So I am sorry if my posts seem the same to you

But I shall have you know that you just misquoted me, and started talking about something else,


As for the inference comments... I don't really know what you were saying, so I just repeated my position, and I was not replying directly to the different meanings of words that you posted.

As for inductive reasoning, you seemed to quote the first sentance of wiki and forget the rest of the paragraph


Essentially, to skip to the point of this interaction -


Why do you think consciousness is a function of the primate brain,

and what do you believe science & psychology knows about consciousness?


--------------------

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Re: Prison or Freedom? [Re: Noteworthy]
    #11205896 -

where did i miss quote you? and what is so hard to understand about

Quote:
A can not be said to relate to B because B theoretically relates to A, and relating them(assuming both) to C that they have related to B to an extent.


A = consciousness
B = Neural Activity
C = Brain radiation (which I still assume means damage since you won't clarify)


--------------------
"Nature is like a sculptor constantly improving upon her work, but to do so she chisels away at living flesh." H.K. Bloom

"Is God willing to prevent evil but not able? Then he is not omnipotent...
Is he able but not willing? Then he is malevolent...
Is he both able, and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him god." Epicurus c. 300 BCE

"When I brought up the fact that 'No drug is good or bad, they're all just A drug, what someone does with them determines the postive or negative outcome. Look at medicine, those are drugs' Reponse was that 'well medicine solves problems' well so does LSD." -Learningtofly

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Re: Prison or Freedom? [Re: mozhual]
    #11205923 -

perhaps you could fix up the grammar? What I don't understand, primarily, is where that sentance came from, and what it means in this discussion?

Immediately it confuses me, because if A relates to B then I would imagine B relates to A

'Brain radiation' is radiation coming from the brain.

fMRI
PET
EEG


--------------------

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Re: Prison or Freedom? [Re: Noteworthy]
    #11205941 -

Quote:
Why do you think consciousness is a function of the primate brain, and what do you believe science & psychology knows about consciousness?


The brain, and indeed all living things are entelechies. Since consciousness can not be demonstrated to have any supernatural origin or exist in a supernatural manner, it is only logical to conclude that it exists because of the ever increasing complexity of the entelechy of the primate brain. Different types of consciousness evolved at different times (i.e. what you would describe as consciousness in animals is just one form of consciousness) but I am referring to the last and the greatest of consciousnesses, the human conscious, the most intriguing consciousness. Because of the other forms of consciousness about and how the simplest ones can be analogous with computer programs, is it really so hard to work from the premise that our consciousness is just a much more complicated (and biologial in nature) computer program?


--------------------
"Nature is like a sculptor constantly improving upon her work, but to do so she chisels away at living flesh." H.K. Bloom

"Is God willing to prevent evil but not able? Then he is not omnipotent...
Is he able but not willing? Then he is malevolent...
Is he both able, and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him god." Epicurus c. 300 BCE

"When I brought up the fact that 'No drug is good or bad, they're all just A drug, what someone does with them determines the postive or negative outcome. Look at medicine, those are drugs' Reponse was that 'well medicine solves problems' well so does LSD." -Learningtofly

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Re: Prison or Freedom? [Re: Noteworthy]
    #11205958 -

This is a rather strict physical definition of radiation(now to say it comes from the brain is a little off, it comes from the constituents of the brain, not  usually as result of the complete brain itself. also most brain scans require radioactive ink or other materials to be injected into the brain), but thank you for clarifying.

The problem is in part assuming A relates to B, where in the very next phrase you clearly state it is theoretical. But the real issue is assuming this means anything. This statement I blew out of proportion, it is of little significance.


--------------------
"Nature is like a sculptor constantly improving upon her work, but to do so she chisels away at living flesh." H.K. Bloom

"Is God willing to prevent evil but not able? Then he is not omnipotent...
Is he able but not willing? Then he is malevolent...
Is he both able, and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him god." Epicurus c. 300 BCE

"When I brought up the fact that 'No drug is good or bad, they're all just A drug, what someone does with them determines the postive or negative outcome. Look at medicine, those are drugs' Reponse was that 'well medicine solves problems' well so does LSD." -Learningtofly

Edited by mozhual (10/08/09 06:12 AM)

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Re: Prison or Freedom? [Re: mozhual]
    #11206171 -

mozhual said:
Quote:
Why do you think consciousness is a function of the primate brain, and what do you believe science & psychology knows about consciousness?


The brain, and indeed all living things are entelechies. Since consciousness can not be demonstrated to have any supernatural origin or exist in a supernatural manner, it is only logical to conclude that it exists because of the ever increasing complexity of the entelechy of the primate brain. Different types of consciousness evolved at different times (i.e. what you would describe as consciousness in animals is just one form of consciousness) but I am referring to the last and the greatest of consciousnesses, the human conscious, the most intriguing consciousness. Because of the other forms of consciousness about and how the simplest ones can be analogous with computer programs, is it really so hard to work from the premise that our consciousness is just a much more complicated (and biologial in nature) computer program?


Yes it is, I think.

Consciousness. What is it? Nothing in science can begin to explain how these sensations you are feeling can exist as opposed to not existing. There is no colour in physics. We define colour through communicating things to eachother and finding concensus as to what things are certain qualitative colours or not.
How does this colour manage to follow my brain around?

I have a rubiks cube in front of me. It has colours on different sides. It seems as if the colour is actually on the faces of the cube, and as I turn parts around, the colours move behind the cube, and new colour emerges on the revealed faces.
But this is not so - the colour is existing somewhere else. The faces exist as substances we would call plastics, and pigments.

So where is consciousness? It feels as if it is in my head. Well of course it would feel that way! I am seeing out of my eyes, after all.

Since damage to the brain can lead to damage to the consciousness, this suggests that consciousness is in the brain.
I disagree with this, however.
There is no scientific model that can breach the conceptual gap between brain functions and consciousness, even if certain brain functions have had certain correlations with conscious states.
And between that gap may be anything...

consciousness could be

somewhere distant or proximal, remotely detecting states of the brain through a process itself as ilusive as consciousness..

could be that there is 'consciousness' everywhere in the universe, and when a brain passes through it, the brain distorts the consciousness into qualia.

or it could be that the function of the brain creates a whole seperate 'universe' by some unknown mechanism or harmony, and the consciousness exists purely in that universe. (are there any other minds in this mind? hmm doesnt seem like our minds are in the same place.. doesnt seem they are 'in' the universe either. The universe contains bosons n photons n shit).

Also, it could be that consciousness is something that is floating around wherever the brain is.

Or could be that there is just one great consciousness, and parts of it are given windows of awareness that are mostly if not completely restricted by the limitations of earthly bodies.


--------------------

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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