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OfflineNoteworthy
Sophyphile
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Registered: 10/05/08
Posts: 5,599
Last seen: 11 years, 2 months
Re: Prison or Freedom? [Re: mozhual]
    #11211439 - 10/08/09 10:02 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

mozhual said:
"One of our most important living philosophers, Dan Dennett is best known for his provocative and controversial arguments that human consciousness and free will are the result of physical processes in the brain. He argues that the brain's computational circuitry fools us into thinking we know more than we do, and that what we call consciousness � isn't." -from Ted.com Profile

You might be thinking "Even if that is true, it doesn't mean the consciousness is housed in the brain!" to which I would respond, why not? At the very least you should view it logically that a computer would hold the computer programs in/on it. And it certainly doesn't give any reason to think consciousness is some ethereal substance or some supernatural object. Perhaps the problem lies in trying to quantify or rationalize consciousness...; but if you have to, Dennett's argument(s) are certainly second to none.

Can it be proved? No, not beyond a shadow of a doubt. Is there much more evidence or reason to think this over other possibilities? Yes, much of which has taken many years for Dennett to fully express and would be a down right pain to gather up and post.

Really what it comes down to is whether you would take Dennetts word for it or not(or if you have time, read through and scrutinize part of his life's work), cause I fear I've already done a terrible job of conveying his view of it.


Also: Color is an interpretation of something that DOES indeed exist. Of the seemingly infinite number of wave lengths that exist, we only see one little snippet of the entire spectrum, and that snippet is interpreted in what we call color. In order for there to be an interpretation(in reference to color) there needs to be something physical to be interpreted, hence the different wave lengths for all applicable purposes do arguably have color(even if we never see this "true" color).

"'Let there be perception,' was evolution's proclamation, and so it was that all creatures, from honeybees to humans, came to see the world not as it is, but as it was most useful" -Beau Lotto




I don't care much for Dennet's explinations of consciousness.. he is a good writer... but it doesnt mean he has actually solved the problem. He has just provided a way of understanding consciousness that a lot of people can swallow.

But this colour issue really is significant.

Colour is NOT (repeated a miilion times) a band of wavelengths. Colour is a sensation. A sensation can represent things if we have interpretations for them. Our interpretation of colour is that it occurs when photons of certain frequency enter our eyes. Thus colour represents types of light.

But that is noT what colour IS. Colour is a sensation. Philosophers like to use the word 'qualia'.

'qualia' is beyond science.

You don't have to actively believe in magic... you just have to see that our current models are inadequite.

why can't people live in the presence of the unknown?

people seem to always want to say that a phenomenon is this or that or the other when in fact none of those options are likely to be the case. I think it is exciting that consciousness still illudes us. Other people seem to act frightened of the notion that there is something seemingly 'magic' occuring. We all know that sufficiently advanced 'science' is magic...


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Invisiblemozhual
Amateur Omnologist
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Registered: 09/26/09
Posts: 283
Loc: New England
Re: Prison or Freedom? [Re: Noteworthy]
    #11213520 - 10/09/09 06:43 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

If you can agree that there are wavelengths of light, and that they are what is interpreted by the brain into color, what is so god damn hard about saying they "have" color? Obviously they don't share the color that gets interpreted by our brains but they still have a different visual sensation, so regardless of how our brain interprets them they produce different visual sensation which is fundamentally what color is.


--------------------
"Nature is like a sculptor constantly improving upon her work, but to do so she chisels away at living flesh." H.K. Bloom

"Is God willing to prevent evil but not able? Then he is not omnipotent...
Is he able but not willing? Then he is malevolent...
Is he both able, and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him god." Epicurus c. 300 BCE

"When I brought up the fact that 'No drug is good or bad, they're all just A drug, what someone does with them determines the postive or negative outcome. Look at medicine, those are drugs' Reponse was that 'well medicine solves problems' well so does LSD." -Learningtofly

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Invisiblemozhual
Amateur Omnologist
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Registered: 09/26/09
Posts: 283
Loc: New England
Re: Prison or Freedom? [Re: Noteworthy]
    #11213533 - 10/09/09 06:48 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Now for consciousness... what needs to be solved? Most, if not all, scientific theories CAN NOT BE PROVED. That is the fundamental nature of science which makes it differ greatly from mathematics. The reason we don't reject them is because they provide insight and a better understanding of the world around us. Dennett's philosophy of consciousness does this to the Nth degree, no one has yet come close to a better explanation. This much at least, is indisputable with any reasonable argument.


--------------------
"Nature is like a sculptor constantly improving upon her work, but to do so she chisels away at living flesh." H.K. Bloom

"Is God willing to prevent evil but not able? Then he is not omnipotent...
Is he able but not willing? Then he is malevolent...
Is he both able, and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him god." Epicurus c. 300 BCE

"When I brought up the fact that 'No drug is good or bad, they're all just A drug, what someone does with them determines the postive or negative outcome. Look at medicine, those are drugs' Reponse was that 'well medicine solves problems' well so does LSD." -Learningtofly

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InvisibleCognitive_Shift
CS actual
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Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 29,591
Re: Prison or Freedom? [Re: mozhual]
    #11213541 - 10/09/09 06:52 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Programming & Metaprogramming in the Human Biocomputer

by Dr.  John C Lilly.

Really interesting stuff:thumbup:

His work with dolphins is cool too.


--------------------
L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs

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Invisiblemozhual
Amateur Omnologist
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Registered: 09/26/09
Posts: 283
Loc: New England
Re: Prison or Freedom? [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
    #11213594 - 10/09/09 07:08 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Hah, that's funny I've read excerpts from this guy's book before but never got around to reading it cause they seemed a little redundant to my current knowledge, I'll continue to check it out though.


--------------------
"Nature is like a sculptor constantly improving upon her work, but to do so she chisels away at living flesh." H.K. Bloom

"Is God willing to prevent evil but not able? Then he is not omnipotent...
Is he able but not willing? Then he is malevolent...
Is he both able, and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him god." Epicurus c. 300 BCE

"When I brought up the fact that 'No drug is good or bad, they're all just A drug, what someone does with them determines the postive or negative outcome. Look at medicine, those are drugs' Reponse was that 'well medicine solves problems' well so does LSD." -Learningtofly

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OfflinePsyAlien
Alien Stranger
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Registered: 12/13/08
Posts: 218
Loc: Israel Flag
Last seen: 7 years, 6 months
Re: Prison or Freedom? [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #11214068 - 10/09/09 09:19 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

LunarEclipse said:


when i are wept?  is that all you have lept?  you schlept in here telling me i must accept you are off not that deft more like left behind right?





you absolutely right
you also cannot fight
if i'm not deft
then how is that
you so obsessed
can't you see
that's what i want to
to pull you into
my bowl to fill too
and put you in the list
of folly madness

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OfflinePsyAlien
Alien Stranger
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Registered: 12/13/08
Posts: 218
Loc: Israel Flag
Last seen: 7 years, 6 months
Re: Prison or Freedom? [Re: mozhual]
    #11214115 - 10/09/09 09:32 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

mozhual said:
Hah, that's funny I've read excerpts from this guy's book before but never got around to reading it cause they seemed a little redundant to my current knowledge, I'll continue to check it out though.





i think you reading too much books and etc, Mr.science.
it makes you to be obsessed with other's thoughts
and deny your own questions. like your soul to who belong to, and you thoughts to whom they meant to?!

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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Prison or Freedom? [Re: PsyAlien]
    #11214133 - 10/09/09 09:37 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

crystal clear:thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OfflinePsyAlien
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Registered: 12/13/08
Posts: 218
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Re: Prison or Freedom? [Re: TheBalance]
    #11214152 - 10/09/09 09:41 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

TheBalance said:

Was gone but back again,
Luck means nothing to the oarsmen.
Clue?
Yes, in the observatory with the candlestick.
A ride on the beatnik gnostic broomstick.
Aware?
This friend is picking up the spare.
Care?
Break out the stemware.:cheers:
Hell needs a retell and maybe a new doorbell.
One for pasteurization?
I lean towards exfoliation of the nation.





time out!!!
and soon will back to you
to rip your heart in two.
it's Shabbat time
the day is not my!

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Invisiblemozhual
Amateur Omnologist
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Registered: 09/26/09
Posts: 283
Loc: New England
Re: Prison or Freedom? [Re: PsyAlien]
    #11214497 - 10/09/09 10:49 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

I'd prefer to advance the evolution of the biomass clan of DNA rather then retard it, but to each his own.


--------------------
"Nature is like a sculptor constantly improving upon her work, but to do so she chisels away at living flesh." H.K. Bloom

"Is God willing to prevent evil but not able? Then he is not omnipotent...
Is he able but not willing? Then he is malevolent...
Is he both able, and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him god." Epicurus c. 300 BCE

"When I brought up the fact that 'No drug is good or bad, they're all just A drug, what someone does with them determines the postive or negative outcome. Look at medicine, those are drugs' Reponse was that 'well medicine solves problems' well so does LSD." -Learningtofly

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