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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #11046157 -

to keep slavery legal?  you couldn't possibly be referring the democratic party of 150 years ago as if it is the same entity that it is today.

and i don't quite understand how white lies about his upbringing taken out of context are really pertinent in any form.

so far as the restoration of the economy, job creation is not the only means by which this needs occur.  if american citizens were actually covered medically, it'd mean less debt for the tens of thousand who would have fallen ill uninsured if the undesired course is taken.  and a small amount of job creation in the government sector to deal with it all.  but the thing is, you're right, there shouldn't be this much energy and time focused on this bill, because it shouldn't be encountering this much opposition!  only in america will such a significant contingent of political leadership argue against making sure its citizens are able to actually receive medical treatment.

and besides, i've said it before and i'll say it again.  he's only been in the office for less than 9 months.  there's no way he could "fix" the economy in such a short time.  hell, he hasn't even had an opportunity to enact his own economic policies, as the past 9 months have simply been spent mucking out the seemingly endless piles of shit from the last administration.

with all due respect, i think the load we've taken from Obama thus far has been about 1/100th of the shit we swallowed with Bush.  the entire fucking afghani and iraq war!  the allowance of many of the fortune 500's most profitable corps to simply NOT PAY TAXES.  are you fucking kidding me?  that is a far more grave transgression and insult to the american people.


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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: Green_T]
    #11046196 -

Page 31 begins to describe the advisory committee that decides how to administer benefits.

"1 (A) 9 members who are not Federal employees or officers and who are appointed by the President. (B) 9 members who are not Federal employees or officers and who are appointed by the Comptroller General of the United States in a manner similar to the manner in which the Comptroller General appoints members to the Medicare Payment Advisory Commission under
section 1805(c) of the Social Security Act.
C) Such even number of members (not to
exceed 8) who are Federal employees and officers, as the President may appoint. Such initial appointments shall be made not later than 60 days after the date of the enactment of this Act."

Industry insiders and federal employees decided by the president. fail.


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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: tiny_rabid_birds]
    #11046236 -

Page 43

"(c) DATA COLLECTION.—The Commissioner shall collect data for purposes of carrying out the Commissioner’s duties, including for purposes of promoting quality and value, protecting consumers, and addressing disparities in health and health care and may share such data with the Secretary of Health and Human Services."

your privacy, gone.


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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: tiny_rabid_birds]
    #11046250 -

tiny_rabid_birds said:
and i don't quite understand how white lies about his upbringing taken out of context are really pertinent in any form.


a lie is a lie, lets not try to quantify one over the other because it's pretty well know that a man that will lie over the little shit will damned sure lie over the big shit

Quote:
so far as the restoration of the economy, job creation is not the only means by which this needs occur.


and yet trillions have been alloted and nothing but more job losses, more people losing their health care coverage, homes, cars, etc...

Quote:
  if american citizens were actually covered medically, it'd mean less debt for the tens of thousand who would have fallen ill uninsured if the undesired course is taken.


but the vast majority, 85% are in fact covered medically, and for the
minority I'll have to pay more in taxes further reducing my quality of living


Quote:
and a small amount of job creation in the government sector to deal with it all.



creation of more government that does nothing but collect a fat paycheck
while the backbone of this country goes hungry, how long can we aggoed
to lose half a million jobs per month for the creation of 80 in government

Quote:
but the thing is, you're right, there shouldn't be this much energy and time focused on this bill, because it shouldn't be encountering this much opposition!


unless it's like the rest of the redundant legislation, did you know
it's now illegal to smuggle drugs into the country using a submarine, I
would have though that smuggling drugs into the country being illegal
would have covered any means of transport

Quote:
only in america will such a significant contingent of political leadership argue against making sure its citizens are able to actually receive medical treatment.



the american dream doesnt consist of me having to support your 80 bastard offspring when I struggle enough trying to support my own
little bastards


Quote:
and besides, i've said it before and i'll say it again.  he's only been in the office for less than 9 months.  there's no way he could "fix" the economy in such a short time.  hell, he hasn't even had an opportunity to enact his own economic policies, as the past 9 months have simply been spent mucking out the seemingly endless piles of shit from the last administration.


of course, be like Obama and blame bush, in the 9 months he's been in
office he's managed to rack up as much debt as it's taken bush 6 of his
8 years to do, by the time he's done, we'll exceed 17 trillion in debt


 
Quote:
the entire fucking afghani and iraq war!


those are UN actions, remember, it's the UN killing innocent civilians,
not obama or bush, lets assume this is workings of bush for a moment,
guess what... it's obamas choice to continue it, which he's happily doing

Quote:
the allowance of many of the fortune 500's most profitable corps to simply NOT PAY TAXES.  are you fucking kidding me?  that is a far more grave transgression and insult to the american people.



is it any different than 60% of the people paying no taxes at all,
allowing foreign goods into the country without duties or any of the
other thousands of bad policy decisions made in previous
administrations, many of those decisions being the same ones that have
us in this debate to begin with


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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: stedenko]
    #11046266 -

right, because after the patriot act we still have privacy legally afforded to us anyways.

at least it specifies the purposes of the data use.  so should there be any misuse in an attempt to press criminal charges (which i doubt - one is usually exempt from prosecution of self-afflicting crimes when under medical care), there is that specific clause to cite.  data used for any other reason is unlawful, short and simple.  for medical coverage, i personally would be willing to pay such a nominal fee.


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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: stedenko]
    #11046268 -

page 51

"the Secretary of Health and Human Services shall, not later than 18 months after the date of the enactment of this Act, promulgate such regulations as are necessary or appropriate to insure that all health care and related services (including insurance coverage and public health activities) covered by this Act are provided (whether directly or through contractual, licensing, or other arrangements) without regard to personal characteristics extraneous to the provision of high quality health care or related services."

concientous objector, constitutional objections, no.
mandatory vaccination? keep in mind, we wont see the implementation or the other regulations "promulgated" for 18 months...


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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: stedenko]
    #11046275 -

page 53

if the act is unconstitutional, it will remain in effect.

"16 If any provision of this Act, or any application of such
17 provision to any person or circumstance, is held to be un18
constitutional, the remainder of the provisions of this Act
19 and the application of the provision to any other person
20 or circumstance shall not be affected."

it should say"if any part of this act in unconstitutional it will be removed" imho


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Edited by stedenko (09/12/09 12:27 PM)

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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: tiny_rabid_birds]
    #11046288 -

tiny_rabid_birds said:
right, because after the patriot act we still have privacy legally afforded to us anyways.

at least it specifies the purposes of the data use.  so should there be any misuse in an attempt to press criminal charges (which i doubt - one is usually exempt from prosecution of self-afflicting crimes when under medical care), there is that specific clause to cite.  data used for any other reason is unlawful, short and simple.  for medical coverage, i personally would be willing to pay such a nominal fee.


Fuck it, my rights are gone anyway....may as well give the rest away.


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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: stedenko]
    #11046292 -

To the first 50 pages, I say LAME FAIL

someone elses turn to do the next 50, next poster?


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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #11046351 -

no, not all lies are the same.  though his father had a harvard education, he did not lie about him being a goat herder at one point.  it may be slightly misleading, but it's innocent.

and i'm sorry, but you simply cannot blame the money spent thus far entirely on obama's administration.  if bush hadn't cut taxes prior to the 04 election for no good reason other than political gain, and if he hadn't bullied the UN into supporting his war efforts to incite the obscene war, and if he hadn't completely catered to the elite few's pocketbooks, our debt/GDP ratio would be in much better shape to handle the world economic crises that Obama took presidency in the midst of.  it's a simple fact that bush acted completely without regards to sound economic judgment.  leading economists the world 'round agree, including Paul Krugman, whose name appears on more int'l economics textbooks than pretty much anyone.

as far as the continuation of the war goes, i'm sure you realize war is incredibly complex.  the situation is quite volatile, and the extraction process has proved quite difficult.  we should have never forced ourselves into the situation in the first place, but now that we have, we're stuck.  every time troops try to leave an occupied territory, there are uprisings and total chaos between our supporters and dissenters, which the iraqi gov't seems to have trouble controlling in our absence.  we can't simply fuck the entire country up, then leave it in tattered ruins, adding insult to injury and spitting in the face of international dealings.  the world hates us enough as is.  Obama's trying to actually regain a respectable name of diplomacy for the country. 

i don't think he's infallible.  i don't think he's the messiah.  but i do think that bush acted almost completely without reason, and absolutely without regard for the well-being of the common man versus the elite few.  and now he's got a shit job trying to clean it up.  in the middle of an international economic crisis no less.  the whole while he can't even get a fucking bill through congress because of the absurd focus on making him a one-term president rather than actually trying to work together to get shit done.


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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: stedenko]
    #11046399 -

stedenko said:
tiny_rabid_birds said:
right, because after the patriot act we still have privacy legally afforded to us anyways.

at least it specifies the purposes of the data use.  so should there be any misuse in an attempt to press criminal charges (which i doubt - one is usually exempt from prosecution of self-afflicting crimes when under medical care), there is that specific clause to cite.  data used for any other reason is unlawful, short and simple.  for medical coverage, i personally would be willing to pay such a nominal fee.


Fuck it, my rights are gone anyway....may as well give the rest away.


i think your right to privacy on the phone and computer are a might bit more important than the privacy of your medical history, which isn't even private anyways.  the government is already able to access medical records.  there's no change there.


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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: tiny_rabid_birds]
    #11046420 -

tiny_rabid_birds said:
right, because after the patriot act we still have privacy legally afforded to us anyways.



how would my privacy have been invaded, I'm not engaged in any illegal
activities or acts of terrorism, what has the patriot act allowed that a
court order or warrant wouldnt


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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #11046441 -

um.. the ability to completely bypass the legal procedures that are a warrant/court order. 

it went from, okay, you can invade his privacy so long as you go through the proper channels and get court approval, and he is deemed a threat/participant in illegal activities;
to simply, okay, go for it.  nothing stopping you.  you have some suspicions but no real evidence?  yeah yeah, whatever, we already told you to do it.


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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: tiny_rabid_birds]
    #11046530 -

tiny_rabid_birds said:
no, not all lies are the same.  though his father had a harvard education, he did not lie about him being a goat herder at one point.  it may be slightly misleading, but it's innocent.


if you unclog a toilet that doesnt make you a plumber, in fact from the
looks of things his father was a cook or according to other accounts was
a wealthy farmer meaning Barack Sr. was a child of priveledge and
education as opposed to the poor goat herder we keep hearing about,
seems the only person that calls him a goat herder is Barack Jr.

a lie is a lie and here's a fellow that's obviously very ashamed of both
the white and the african heritage of his family if he's making up
stories to cover the fact that his father didnt come from poverty, the same story he claims of himself

Quote:
and i'm sorry, but you simply cannot blame the money spent thus far entirely on obama's administration.



sure I can, the same way Obama blames bush for everything

Quote:
if bush hadn't cut taxes prior to the 04 election for no good reason other than political gain, and if he hadn't bullied the UN into supporting his war efforts to incite the obscene war, and if he hadn't completely catered to the elite few's pocketbooks, our debt/GDP ratio would be in much better shape to handle the world economic crises that Obama took presidency in the midst of.


well in that case if Clinton hadnt signed bills allowing for deregulation of banking, the exportation of jobs without suffering penalties through taxation for the goods shipped back by these 'american' business'... you cant blame it on bush

 
Quote:
it's a simple fact that bush acted completely without regards to sound economic judgment.


like Clinton, Carter and Obama?

 
Quote:
leading economists the world 'round agree, including Paul Krugman, whose name appears on more int'l economics textbooks than pretty much anyone.



the same Paul Krugman that didnt see this economic crisis coming 10
years ago like so many other economists, I dont believe I'll take his
word for anything, seems like a short sighted liberal twat

Quote:
as far as the continuation of the war goes, i'm sure you realize war is incredibly complex.  the situation is quite volatile, and the extraction process has proved quite difficult.


extraction by sending in more troops?


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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: tiny_rabid_birds]
    #11046537 -

tiny_rabid_birds said:
um.. the ability to completely bypass the legal procedures that are a warrant/court order. 



feel free to show us because I remember when this bill was on clinton desk back in 1993


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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: tiny_rabid_birds]
    #11046870 -

tiny_rabid_birds said:
stedenko said:
tiny_rabid_birds said:
right, because after the patriot act we still have privacy legally afforded to us anyways.

at least it specifies the purposes of the data use.  so should there be any misuse in an attempt to press criminal charges (which i doubt - one is usually exempt from prosecution of self-afflicting crimes when under medical care), there is that specific clause to cite.  data used for any other reason is unlawful, short and simple.  for medical coverage, i personally would be willing to pay such a nominal fee.


Fuck it, my rights are gone anyway....may as well give the rest away.


i think your right to privacy on the phone and computer are a might bit more important than the privacy of your medical history, which isn't even private anyways.  the government is already able to access medical records.  there's no change there.


sheeple...


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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: Mr.Pink]
    #11049966 -

I've seen a lot of great political posts but this one was awesome!  I love the real life comparison!


--------------------
  Say hello to my little friend.    and...      From Sonny
     
AFOAF's Coffee Experiment  //  Rye Berry Cakes  //  My FOAF  //  I killed my baby Cubes!
Get a freaking camera!  //  Roscoe 'Fatty' Arbuckle  //  I love P.c.Burma!

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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: cne9999]
    #11050668 -

Both Pris and tiny have valid points. But Tiny, I do believe that the war should end and we pull out faster than a guy about to splooge into an ovulating mexican chick looking for her first child.

I mean we bust their ass and then we stay there and coax things over? Really? How many bullies have you seen that beat your ass and then offer you a lollie-pop afterwards?

Maybe we should switch it up.

-On a side note(whoever said this) how am I a junkie? LOL. Kind of a little of topic.


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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: tiny_rabid_birds]
    #11050719 -

Paul Krugman was the moron that thought Greenspan's idea of creating a housing bubble was a great idea.

You would do well to understand that Keynesian economists are all about the growth of big government and intervention in the economy. 

The current puppet is spending/creating money at a far greater rate than Dubya.  He is EXPANDING war overseas.  The jackass supports bullshit like carbon taxes which would CRIPPLE the economy.  Carbon taxes are like a tax on production.  If you can't fucking increase production HOW THE FUCK do you pull yourself out of an economic slump? 

The chief teleprompter reader had the most well funded political campaign in history.  A lot of deep pockets wanted him as their "face man" to push their agendas.

Government healthcare?  Why the fuck would any sane person want the same group of goons that RUIN EVERYTHING THEY GET INVOLVED IN to be in charge of your well-being?

FUCK THAT!

People would do well to stop asking for damn handouts from the government.  Understand that the government always has strings attached to their "gifts". 

Government wants to run people's lives from the cradle to the grave and it is only an apathetic sorry excuse for a human being that supports that!


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Ludwig von Mises Institute,Campaign for Liberty.,The Oath Keeper's

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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: Mr.Al]
    #11050736 -

I can see what you're saying Mr. Al, but at the same time the doctors/hospitals are running the healthcare system like the goons in the office. There are strings attached to everything in this country.

In all honesty, as a group in the US, no one gives 2 shits about the other person that actually needs help because we have been used to getting fucked over by the majority since our grandparent's generation.

It will never end, this cluster fuck of a nation we're in. It is nice to have Obama stating that we can take back the government as a democracy, but who is he really preaching too? The choir!-sarcasm.


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