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reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare...
    #11044604 -

In countries that have full public health care funded through government (like france, canada, england etc.) No one makes the argument that a private system should be adopted. That would be like saying i think only those who can afford treatment should get it, and if you can't then you should suffer to the extent of your means. Shorter lives, lost limbs, and carrying contagious diseases is what the poor should be subject to.:sad:

Essentially they would save $1000 a year in taxes and be left with either unknown amounts of medical bills or $3000 min a year for private insurance. Lets say the companies they work for all decide to pay for employees insurance like in the US, so you think they would just magically add that and retain the same wages? no, their pay checks would have to be cut.

In America, on the other hand, roughly half the country's people think that if we adopted Frances public heath care approach, our taxes/deficit would be dramatically inflated. No.

What would the companies do (or be forced to do) with the $ they were spending on employee health insurance? It would either be paid to the government or given to employee's (and they would be taxed more possibly.) My coverage costs my company about $5000 a year. Do you think i would still work for them if they just took that away because i had public coverage? No fucking way. :coffee:



:mob:
It's also interesting that public care countries spend less per capita than the US because it is a more efficient system. Hospitals in France employ around 60 people for administrative duties at large hospitals, in the US the same size hospital would have 800 or so people responsible for billing and negotiating with private insurers.

It seems we argue that we should not have this populous coverage because it might undermine our ideals. Thats a fucked up argument im sure a few of you share. Could you please remind me what word came before Liberty and the pursuit of happiness? Thats right Life! Our most basic summary of what people deserve in this experiment of a country.

"its socialism" :facepalm:

Bull shit!. Most of the people that make this argument are either well off with no problem obtaining healthcare (so far) and/or are currently accepting medicare. I fucking cringe when i hear reporters ask these pissed off people at town hall meetings (that were violently objecting to public healthcare,) if they use medicare and they say the do. Don't these dumb fucks realize medicare IS public health care!? zomg!1!!

I keep hearing that :obama: is pissing off the %48 of Americans that voted for Mccain with this. How fucking come no one fucking mentioned the %51 of people that voted for Gore in 2001 after Bush sent our publicly funded army into Iraq. 

If you care to dirty this thread with arguments about socialism :puke: please first articulate exactly why publicly funded police, and firefighters are not creating a slippery slope toward socialism. Also, please tell me why it is not a problem for all these moderate Americans that object to socialized medicine, that we have a nationwide socialized public school system. 

I request that this tread be limited to discussion about this topic in our current America, and avoid comments to the extent "of our whole government should be removed," or tangents pertaining to the result of anarchy, coup, ronpaul etc.

The topic of this thread is:
Medicare in this country now.

Discuss.

:crankey:


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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... *DELETED* [Re: rodfarva]
    #11044616 -

Post deleted by blewmeanie

Reason for deletion: .



--------------------
The Prophecy!

Learn To Code

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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: blewmeanie]
    #11044640 -

Fantastic post!

Here's on old one I like and think hits home.

WHAT HAS GOP DONE FOR WORKERS?

CLINT C. GOLD
10/24/1999
Tulsa World

Not too long ago, my wife and I attended a TV football party in south Tulsa. With a lopsided score, the conversation turned to a livelier subject -- politics. The crowd was, of course, top-heavy with Republicans. With each point expressed their faces became more flushed, eyes bulging a little more and veins popping in their foreheads as they railed against the liberal programs.

Finally a lone, liberal voice asked: "Will you people name me one bill your party ever passed to help the working man of this country?" The question created much din and clamor, and someone sputtered, "Well, what have the Democrats done?"

The liberal responded with a few programs and was interrupted by howling and disdain. He noted that he had not promised they would like the programs and he asked to complete his statement -- a difficult task to ask of Republicans.

He spoke of Social Security; Medicare-Medicaid; Peace Corps; unemployment insurance; welfare (for the poor and corporate); civil rights; student grant and loan programs; safety laws (OSHA); environmental laws; prevailing wage laws; right to collective bargaining (which brought about paid medical insurance, paid vacations, pensions, etc.); workers' compensation; Marshall Plan; flood-disaster insurance; School Lunch Program; women's rights.

He spoke of the Fair Labor Standards Act, which established a minimum wage, instituted child labor laws, and set up time-and-a-half pay for over a 40-hour week.

He mentioned FHA-HUD with its public housing, urban renewal and 44 million residential homes (before WWII almost 70 percent of our nation were renters; by the 1970s this had been reversed). And farm-conservation subsidies -- USDA programs, Farmers Home Administration (the bankers didn't want to make rural loans), small flood-control lakes (more than 3,000 in Oklahoma alone), rural water districts, rural electricity (REA).

The GI Bill was passed, which the Republicans at the time bitterly opposed. They were salivating over millions of returning veterans to hire as cheap labor. More than 8 million have used college benefits, creating millions of entrepreneurs; most of us had never dreamed of college. For the unemployed GI, there was $20 a week for 52 weeks to help get started (a lot of money in those days). The Veterans Administration provided more than 2 million home loans.

For the bankers at the football party, it was pointed out that the liberals saved their industry with the creation of FDIC and FSLIC, insuring their deposits, and saved Wall Street with the establishment of the Securities Exchange Commission.

The oil men came on bended knees to FDR at a time when East Texas oil was 4 cents a barrel and begged him to save their industry. He did; prorationing overturned the rule of capture and the days of flush production were over. Prorating has served this great industry (and nation) well.

And the list went on and on, but of course this group didn't let him get halfway through. He noted they were weary, inattentive, so again he challenged them to offer up any Republican legislation examples.

"I'm sure your party has authored one or two comparable bills from time to time, but I can't think of any, and apparently you can't either. What it boils down to is this: the liberals dragged you into the 20th century scratching and screaming with your heels in the mud, fighting anything that's progressive, everything that's made this country great. You Republicans have never understood that the spending power of blue-collar workers, obtained through Democrats and unions, is what really made this country great. You really believe "The Good Life" was obtained from your own endeavors. You cloak your greed in religion and patriotism, railing against any form of tax, never comprehending that these programs have benefited all of us and our country."

Well, I almost didn't make it out of the house. My wife and I didn't even get to see the end of the football game.

If Reps. Steve Largent or J.C. Watts had been there, perhaps politics would never have come up, only the game plan ... pity.

Clint C. Gold is former mayor of Moore and a retired savings and loan executive.


--------------------
  Say hello to my little friend.    and...      From Sonny
     
AFOAF's Coffee Experiment  //  Rye Berry Cakes  //  My FOAF  //  I killed my baby Cubes!
Get a freaking camera!  //  Roscoe 'Fatty' Arbuckle  //  I love P.c.Burma!

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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: cne9999]
    #11044650 -

Self identified Republicans who suffer as the lower class in america still favor trickle down economics, and violently object to public healthcare. Smart people they are...

By the way, i am ideologically conservative to a fault.


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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: rodfarva]
    #11044659 -

Maybe you should read thoroughly before you post.  :fearandloathing:


:rofl:


--------------------
  Say hello to my little friend.    and...      From Sonny
     
AFOAF's Coffee Experiment  //  Rye Berry Cakes  //  My FOAF  //  I killed my baby Cubes!
Get a freaking camera!  //  Roscoe 'Fatty' Arbuckle  //  I love P.c.Burma!

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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: cne9999]
    #11044664 -

cne9999 said:
Maybe you should read thoroughly before you post.  :fearandloathing:


:rofl:


I think my bachelors requirements for my political science major required pretty thorough reading. (before you ask 3.8 GPA)
fallacy: appeal to ridicule.


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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: rodfarva]
    #11044674 -

Sorry to hear it.

Suma Cum Laude here; from Purdue University Indiana.

Nuff said.


--------------------
  Say hello to my little friend.    and...      From Sonny
     
AFOAF's Coffee Experiment  //  Rye Berry Cakes  //  My FOAF  //  I killed my baby Cubes!
Get a freaking camera!  //  Roscoe 'Fatty' Arbuckle  //  I love P.c.Burma!

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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: rodfarva]
    #11044675 -



--------------------
How did you get out? I shot my way out... everybody started shooting so I blasted my way out. . . . Tagged a couple of cops. . . . Did you kill anybody? ...a few cops. No real people? ....just cops

Edited by Mr.Pink (09/12/09 05:35 AM)

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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: cne9999]
    #11044687 -

cne9999 said:
Sorry to hear it.

Suma Cum Laude here; from Purdue University Indiana.

Nuff said.


No not really, i still dont know what you ment.
I dont think your really trying to argue the point of this thread, however since you are educated
and im assuming a poli sci major, since you didnt say otherwise i would like to add that:
the medical coverage disparity in this country is a large scale "structural violence," coated with racist butter and jellied with discrimination against the portion of the populous that is un-educated.


moving on...
Quote:
*80 percent of Americans support a government-mandated increase in the minimum wage (Associated Press/AOL Poll, December 2006).


Funny, i bet no more than 30% support government mandated pricing for medical care cost (such as with liquor prices.)


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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: rodfarva]
    #11044710 -

I would debate but I'm really tired right now.

Maybe later sparkles..


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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: rodfarva]
    #11044724 -

Quote:
In countries that have full public health care funded through government (like france, canada, england etc.) No one makes the argument that a private system should be adopted.


Bullshit, I live in Australia with a full public healthcare system.

It's fucking shit, it's understaffed, no resources, terrible quality of health care and non-substantiable.

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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: Chubba]
    #11044742 -

Chubba said:
Quote:
In countries that have full public health care funded through government (like france, canada, england etc.) No one makes the argument that a private system should be adopted.


Bullshit, I live in Australia with a full public healthcare system.

It's fucking shit, it's understaffed, no resources, terrible quality of health care and non-substantiable.


Thats not an argument for adopting a private system, next?


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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: rodfarva]
    #11044745 -

rodfarva said:
Chubba said:
Quote:
In countries that have full public health care funded through government (like france, canada, england etc.) No one makes the argument that a private system should be adopted.


Bullshit, I live in Australia with a full public healthcare system.

It's fucking shit, it's understaffed, no resources, terrible quality of health care and non-substantiable.


Thats not an argument for adopting a private system, next?


But it is an argument AGAINST adopting a public system.


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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: rodfarva]
    #11044748 -

Quote:
Thats not an argument for adopting a private system, next?


I don't get it?

If you can't get public healthcare, the only alternative is private.

It's a dead end... healthcare is EXTREMELY expensive, the vast majority of people treat there bodies like shit... and the kicker is, at the end of everyones life you DIE!!! That means a prolonged stage of intensive healthcare that costs far more then what you EVER contributed in tax payments.

Public healthcare would only work if people weren't afraid of death. That's not the case though, everybody ends their life with a MASSIVE drain on the public healthcare system, with constant surgeries, intensive care, 24/7 nurse support... this can go on for years.

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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... *DELETED* [Re: Knifey Mcstab]
    #11044753 -

Post deleted by blewmeanie

Reason for deletion: .



--------------------
The Prophecy!

Learn To Code

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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: blewmeanie]
    #11044757 -

Like adopting public health care?


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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: blewmeanie]
    #11044760 -

Quote:
If anything we should try and understand exactly what that is so that we can avoid making the same mistakes.


Putting large amounts of money into people that should just die, in a nutshell... that is the downfall of the system.

80yo knobs that have had a lifetime of poor health and 100+ surgeries on the taxpayers bill, these are the people that bleed the system dry.

If you want to pay $2000 a day for a 80yo who's so doped up on meds he's not concious to sit in a hospital bed while waiting for his 101st surgery, go ahead...

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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... *DELETED* [Re: Chubba]
    #11044765 -

Post deleted by blewmeanie

Reason for deletion: .



--------------------
The Prophecy!

Learn To Code

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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: blewmeanie]
    #11044773 -

Quote:
Do you ever wonder what that 2000 dollars a day goes to pay for?


Doctors, nurses, supplies and the hospital in general (with the bureaucracy added on top).

People just need to die, public healthcare can not function with EVERY SINGLE CITIZEN of the country going out in a blazing multiple year stint of intensive healthcare.

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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: Chubba]
    #11044779 -

Chubba said:
Quote:
Thats not an argument for adopting a private system, next?


I don't get it?

If you can't get public healthcare, the only alternative is private.

It's a dead end... healthcare is EXTREMELY expensive, the vast majority of people treat there bodies like shit... and the kicker is, at the end of everyones life you DIE!!! That means a prolonged stage of intensive healthcare that costs far more then what you EVER contributed in tax payments.

Public healthcare would only work if people weren't afraid of death. That's not the case though, everybody ends their life with a MASSIVE drain on the public healthcare system, with constant surgeries, intensive care, 24/7 nurse support... this can go on for years.


Ok, i see what you mean. I don't have the answer to each detailed problem of Australian health care. I should have said "United States style" private system. I live in one of the poorest urban cities in America and most of the people here dying from lack of health care would beg for your problems.

How many Australians think the US healthcare system would be better for that country?
Im sure many would say it would help them, and completely disregard the well being of their neighbors or any future possibility of loosing health coverage (as i would if i got fired/laid off tomorrow.) But none would honestly say they country would be better off. Yes?

Quote:
But it is an argument AGAINST adopting a public system.


There are many arguments, but how do they weigh against (policy decisions for the US) arguments against our current system?




WHO rankings of health care by country
Australia is 5 states above the US in the WHO rankings...
3 if you take out the insignificant varibles represented by costa rica (small) and dominica (a tiny caribbean island near the equator.) 

Keep in mind the US is #1 in world GDP, Australia is 14th. Coincidentaly the US has 14 times the amount of $ resources as Australia.


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Edited by rodfarva (09/12/09 05:19 AM)

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