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reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare...
    #11044604 -

In countries that have full public health care funded through government (like france, canada, england etc.) No one makes the argument that a private system should be adopted. That would be like saying i think only those who can afford treatment should get it, and if you can't then you should suffer to the extent of your means. Shorter lives, lost limbs, and carrying contagious diseases is what the poor should be subject to.:sad:

Essentially they would save $1000 a year in taxes and be left with either unknown amounts of medical bills or $3000 min a year for private insurance. Lets say the companies they work for all decide to pay for employees insurance like in the US, so you think they would just magically add that and retain the same wages? no, their pay checks would have to be cut.

In America, on the other hand, roughly half the country's people think that if we adopted Frances public heath care approach, our taxes/deficit would be dramatically inflated. No.

What would the companies do (or be forced to do) with the $ they were spending on employee health insurance? It would either be paid to the government or given to employee's (and they would be taxed more possibly.) My coverage costs my company about $5000 a year. Do you think i would still work for them if they just took that away because i had public coverage? No fucking way. :coffee:



:mob:
It's also interesting that public care countries spend less per capita than the US because it is a more efficient system. Hospitals in France employ around 60 people for administrative duties at large hospitals, in the US the same size hospital would have 800 or so people responsible for billing and negotiating with private insurers.

It seems we argue that we should not have this populous coverage because it might undermine our ideals. Thats a fucked up argument im sure a few of you share. Could you please remind me what word came before Liberty and the pursuit of happiness? Thats right Life! Our most basic summary of what people deserve in this experiment of a country.

"its socialism" :facepalm:

Bull shit!. Most of the people that make this argument are either well off with no problem obtaining healthcare (so far) and/or are currently accepting medicare. I fucking cringe when i hear reporters ask these pissed off people at town hall meetings (that were violently objecting to public healthcare,) if they use medicare and they say the do. Don't these dumb fucks realize medicare IS public health care!? zomg!1!!

I keep hearing that :obama: is pissing off the %48 of Americans that voted for Mccain with this. How fucking come no one fucking mentioned the %51 of people that voted for Gore in 2001 after Bush sent our publicly funded army into Iraq. 

If you care to dirty this thread with arguments about socialism :puke: please first articulate exactly why publicly funded police, and firefighters are not creating a slippery slope toward socialism. Also, please tell me why it is not a problem for all these moderate Americans that object to socialized medicine, that we have a nationwide socialized public school system. 

I request that this tread be limited to discussion about this topic in our current America, and avoid comments to the extent "of our whole government should be removed," or tangents pertaining to the result of anarchy, coup, ronpaul etc.

The topic of this thread is:
Medicare in this country now.

Discuss.

:crankey:


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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... *DELETED* [Re: rodfarva]
    #11044616 -

Post deleted by blewmeanie

Reason for deletion: .



--------------------
The Prophecy!

Learn To Code

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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: blewmeanie]
    #11044640 -

Fantastic post!

Here's on old one I like and think hits home.

WHAT HAS GOP DONE FOR WORKERS?

CLINT C. GOLD
10/24/1999
Tulsa World

Not too long ago, my wife and I attended a TV football party in south Tulsa. With a lopsided score, the conversation turned to a livelier subject -- politics. The crowd was, of course, top-heavy with Republicans. With each point expressed their faces became more flushed, eyes bulging a little more and veins popping in their foreheads as they railed against the liberal programs.

Finally a lone, liberal voice asked: "Will you people name me one bill your party ever passed to help the working man of this country?" The question created much din and clamor, and someone sputtered, "Well, what have the Democrats done?"

The liberal responded with a few programs and was interrupted by howling and disdain. He noted that he had not promised they would like the programs and he asked to complete his statement -- a difficult task to ask of Republicans.

He spoke of Social Security; Medicare-Medicaid; Peace Corps; unemployment insurance; welfare (for the poor and corporate); civil rights; student grant and loan programs; safety laws (OSHA); environmental laws; prevailing wage laws; right to collective bargaining (which brought about paid medical insurance, paid vacations, pensions, etc.); workers' compensation; Marshall Plan; flood-disaster insurance; School Lunch Program; women's rights.

He spoke of the Fair Labor Standards Act, which established a minimum wage, instituted child labor laws, and set up time-and-a-half pay for over a 40-hour week.

He mentioned FHA-HUD with its public housing, urban renewal and 44 million residential homes (before WWII almost 70 percent of our nation were renters; by the 1970s this had been reversed). And farm-conservation subsidies -- USDA programs, Farmers Home Administration (the bankers didn't want to make rural loans), small flood-control lakes (more than 3,000 in Oklahoma alone), rural water districts, rural electricity (REA).

The GI Bill was passed, which the Republicans at the time bitterly opposed. They were salivating over millions of returning veterans to hire as cheap labor. More than 8 million have used college benefits, creating millions of entrepreneurs; most of us had never dreamed of college. For the unemployed GI, there was $20 a week for 52 weeks to help get started (a lot of money in those days). The Veterans Administration provided more than 2 million home loans.

For the bankers at the football party, it was pointed out that the liberals saved their industry with the creation of FDIC and FSLIC, insuring their deposits, and saved Wall Street with the establishment of the Securities Exchange Commission.

The oil men came on bended knees to FDR at a time when East Texas oil was 4 cents a barrel and begged him to save their industry. He did; prorationing overturned the rule of capture and the days of flush production were over. Prorating has served this great industry (and nation) well.

And the list went on and on, but of course this group didn't let him get halfway through. He noted they were weary, inattentive, so again he challenged them to offer up any Republican legislation examples.

"I'm sure your party has authored one or two comparable bills from time to time, but I can't think of any, and apparently you can't either. What it boils down to is this: the liberals dragged you into the 20th century scratching and screaming with your heels in the mud, fighting anything that's progressive, everything that's made this country great. You Republicans have never understood that the spending power of blue-collar workers, obtained through Democrats and unions, is what really made this country great. You really believe "The Good Life" was obtained from your own endeavors. You cloak your greed in religion and patriotism, railing against any form of tax, never comprehending that these programs have benefited all of us and our country."

Well, I almost didn't make it out of the house. My wife and I didn't even get to see the end of the football game.

If Reps. Steve Largent or J.C. Watts had been there, perhaps politics would never have come up, only the game plan ... pity.

Clint C. Gold is former mayor of Moore and a retired savings and loan executive.


--------------------
  Say hello to my little friend.    and...      From Sonny
     
AFOAF's Coffee Experiment  //  Rye Berry Cakes  //  My FOAF  //  I killed my baby Cubes!
Get a freaking camera!  //  Roscoe 'Fatty' Arbuckle  //  I love P.c.Burma!

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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: cne9999]
    #11044650 -

Self identified Republicans who suffer as the lower class in america still favor trickle down economics, and violently object to public healthcare. Smart people they are...

By the way, i am ideologically conservative to a fault.


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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: rodfarva]
    #11044659 -

Maybe you should read thoroughly before you post.  :fearandloathing:


:rofl:


--------------------
  Say hello to my little friend.    and...      From Sonny
     
AFOAF's Coffee Experiment  //  Rye Berry Cakes  //  My FOAF  //  I killed my baby Cubes!
Get a freaking camera!  //  Roscoe 'Fatty' Arbuckle  //  I love P.c.Burma!

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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: cne9999]
    #11044664 -

cne9999 said:
Maybe you should read thoroughly before you post.  :fearandloathing:


:rofl:


I think my bachelors requirements for my political science major required pretty thorough reading. (before you ask 3.8 GPA)
fallacy: appeal to ridicule.


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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: rodfarva]
    #11044674 -

Sorry to hear it.

Suma Cum Laude here; from Purdue University Indiana.

Nuff said.


--------------------
  Say hello to my little friend.    and...      From Sonny
     
AFOAF's Coffee Experiment  //  Rye Berry Cakes  //  My FOAF  //  I killed my baby Cubes!
Get a freaking camera!  //  Roscoe 'Fatty' Arbuckle  //  I love P.c.Burma!

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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: rodfarva]
    #11044675 -



--------------------
How did you get out? I shot my way out... everybody started shooting so I blasted my way out. . . . Tagged a couple of cops. . . . Did you kill anybody? ...a few cops. No real people? ....just cops

Edited by Mr.Pink (09/12/09 05:35 AM)

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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: cne9999]
    #11044687 -

cne9999 said:
Sorry to hear it.

Suma Cum Laude here; from Purdue University Indiana.

Nuff said.


No not really, i still dont know what you ment.
I dont think your really trying to argue the point of this thread, however since you are educated
and im assuming a poli sci major, since you didnt say otherwise i would like to add that:
the medical coverage disparity in this country is a large scale "structural violence," coated with racist butter and jellied with discrimination against the portion of the populous that is un-educated.


moving on...
Quote:
*80 percent of Americans support a government-mandated increase in the minimum wage (Associated Press/AOL Poll, December 2006).


Funny, i bet no more than 30% support government mandated pricing for medical care cost (such as with liquor prices.)


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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: rodfarva]
    #11044710 -

I would debate but I'm really tired right now.

Maybe later sparkles..


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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: rodfarva]
    #11044724 -

Quote:
In countries that have full public health care funded through government (like france, canada, england etc.) No one makes the argument that a private system should be adopted.


Bullshit, I live in Australia with a full public healthcare system.

It's fucking shit, it's understaffed, no resources, terrible quality of health care and non-substantiable.

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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: Chubba]
    #11044742 -

Chubba said:
Quote:
In countries that have full public health care funded through government (like france, canada, england etc.) No one makes the argument that a private system should be adopted.


Bullshit, I live in Australia with a full public healthcare system.

It's fucking shit, it's understaffed, no resources, terrible quality of health care and non-substantiable.


Thats not an argument for adopting a private system, next?


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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: rodfarva]
    #11044745 -

rodfarva said:
Chubba said:
Quote:
In countries that have full public health care funded through government (like france, canada, england etc.) No one makes the argument that a private system should be adopted.


Bullshit, I live in Australia with a full public healthcare system.

It's fucking shit, it's understaffed, no resources, terrible quality of health care and non-substantiable.


Thats not an argument for adopting a private system, next?


But it is an argument AGAINST adopting a public system.


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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: rodfarva]
    #11044748 -

Quote:
Thats not an argument for adopting a private system, next?


I don't get it?

If you can't get public healthcare, the only alternative is private.

It's a dead end... healthcare is EXTREMELY expensive, the vast majority of people treat there bodies like shit... and the kicker is, at the end of everyones life you DIE!!! That means a prolonged stage of intensive healthcare that costs far more then what you EVER contributed in tax payments.

Public healthcare would only work if people weren't afraid of death. That's not the case though, everybody ends their life with a MASSIVE drain on the public healthcare system, with constant surgeries, intensive care, 24/7 nurse support... this can go on for years.

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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... *DELETED* [Re: Knifey Mcstab]
    #11044753 -

Post deleted by blewmeanie

Reason for deletion: .



--------------------
The Prophecy!

Learn To Code

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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: blewmeanie]
    #11044757 -

Like adopting public health care?


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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: blewmeanie]
    #11044760 -

Quote:
If anything we should try and understand exactly what that is so that we can avoid making the same mistakes.


Putting large amounts of money into people that should just die, in a nutshell... that is the downfall of the system.

80yo knobs that have had a lifetime of poor health and 100+ surgeries on the taxpayers bill, these are the people that bleed the system dry.

If you want to pay $2000 a day for a 80yo who's so doped up on meds he's not concious to sit in a hospital bed while waiting for his 101st surgery, go ahead...

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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... *DELETED* [Re: Chubba]
    #11044765 -

Post deleted by blewmeanie

Reason for deletion: .



--------------------
The Prophecy!

Learn To Code

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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: blewmeanie]
    #11044773 -

Quote:
Do you ever wonder what that 2000 dollars a day goes to pay for?


Doctors, nurses, supplies and the hospital in general (with the bureaucracy added on top).

People just need to die, public healthcare can not function with EVERY SINGLE CITIZEN of the country going out in a blazing multiple year stint of intensive healthcare.

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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: Chubba]
    #11044779 -

Chubba said:
Quote:
Thats not an argument for adopting a private system, next?


I don't get it?

If you can't get public healthcare, the only alternative is private.

It's a dead end... healthcare is EXTREMELY expensive, the vast majority of people treat there bodies like shit... and the kicker is, at the end of everyones life you DIE!!! That means a prolonged stage of intensive healthcare that costs far more then what you EVER contributed in tax payments.

Public healthcare would only work if people weren't afraid of death. That's not the case though, everybody ends their life with a MASSIVE drain on the public healthcare system, with constant surgeries, intensive care, 24/7 nurse support... this can go on for years.


Ok, i see what you mean. I don't have the answer to each detailed problem of Australian health care. I should have said "United States style" private system. I live in one of the poorest urban cities in America and most of the people here dying from lack of health care would beg for your problems.

How many Australians think the US healthcare system would be better for that country?
Im sure many would say it would help them, and completely disregard the well being of their neighbors or any future possibility of loosing health coverage (as i would if i got fired/laid off tomorrow.) But none would honestly say they country would be better off. Yes?

Quote:
But it is an argument AGAINST adopting a public system.


There are many arguments, but how do they weigh against (policy decisions for the US) arguments against our current system?




WHO rankings of health care by country
Australia is 5 states above the US in the WHO rankings...
3 if you take out the insignificant varibles represented by costa rica (small) and dominica (a tiny caribbean island near the equator.) 

Keep in mind the US is #1 in world GDP, Australia is 14th. Coincidentaly the US has 14 times the amount of $ resources as Australia.


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Edited by rodfarva (09/12/09 05:19 AM)

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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... *DELETED* [Re: Knifey Mcstab]
    #11044782 -

Post deleted by blewmeanie

Reason for deletion: .



--------------------
The Prophecy!

Learn To Code

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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: rodfarva]
    #11044786 -

Quote:
How many Australians think the US healthcare system would be better for that country?


I can't speak for other countries where public healthcare is succesful, but Australia has failed.

The system is collasping, it is never going to recover, the government is now pushing us to take on private healthcare.

We will be in your exact position very soon.

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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: rodfarva]
    #11044789 -

Quote:
WHO rankings of health care by country
Australia is 5 states above the US in the WHO rankings...
3 if you take out the insignificant varibles represented by costa rica (small) and dominica (a tiny caribbean island near the equator.)

Keep in mind the US is #1 in world GDP, Australia is 14th. Coincidentaly the US has 14 times the amount of $ resources as Australia.


Since you're mentioning the GDP.

The most popular comparison atm is Queensland to California, check out the GDP of each state. Queensland has a debt of around $70 billion, I believe California is around the same.

THAT is why public healthcare here is doomed to collaspe.

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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: Chubba]
    #11044791 -

Chubba said:
Quote:
If anything we should try and understand exactly what that is so that we can avoid making the same mistakes.


Putting large amounts of money into people that should just die, in a nutshell... that is the downfall of the system.

80yo knobs that have had a lifetime of poor health and 100+ surgeries on the taxpayers bill, these are the people that bleed the system dry.

If you want to pay $2000 a day for a 80yo who's so doped up on meds he's not concious to sit in a hospital bed while waiting for his 101st surgery, go ahead...


you do realize it costs our insurance companies at least 5 times as much to care for the same situation?
Guess how they pay for that? By raising my private insurance costs and copays.


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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: rodfarva]
    #11044792 -

Admittedly I'm not the best equipped to argue against it right now, just from what I've read about it I wasn't a big fan.

More research into the issue is needed though.


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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: Chubba]
    #11044794 -

Chubba said:
Quote:
Do you ever wonder what that 2000 dollars a day goes to pay for?


Doctors, nurses, supplies and the hospital in general (with the bureaucracy added on top).

People just need to die, public healthcare can not function with EVERY SINGLE CITIZEN of the country going out in a blazing multiple year stint of intensive healthcare.


It really doesn't though, it goes to pay for unnecessary bullshit. Doctors flying out of state to conferences, insanely expensive office equipment, 20,000 dollar copy machines 5 or 6 people doing the job of one person because having that many people working under you as a supervisor makes your position seem more important than it really is. Motherfuckers eating catered lunch every day, working 4 hours a day 2 or 3 days a week, charging dry cleaning as a work expense. New laptops every 6 months... and on and on and on. It's fucking insanity. I once had to order 10,000 condoms stamped with the health care center logo at a cost of .50 each just because there was a little money that need to be spent at the end of the year. I was a bullshit number pusher, and I was sitting at a 5000 dollar desk while making only a few more dollars an hour than minimum wage.



Read my angry disjointed rant here for further confusion.:tongue2:
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/11044334#11044334


--------------------
The Prophecy!

Learn To Code

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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: rodfarva]
    #11044797 -

Quote:
you do realize it costs our insurance companies at least 5 times as much to care for the same situation?
Guess how they pay for that? By raising my private insurance costs and copays.


Well I still think the fundamental problem is people trying to hold onto life as long as possible in a diseased state.

I got no solution... honestly.

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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: Chubba]
    #11044804 -

Chubba said:
Quote:
WHO rankings of health care by country
Australia is 5 states above the US in the WHO rankings...
3 if you take out the insignificant varibles represented by costa rica (small) and dominica (a tiny caribbean island near the equator.)

Keep in mind the US is #1 in world GDP, Australia is 14th. Coincidentaly the US has 14 times the amount of $ resources as Australia.


Since you're mentioning the GDP.

The most popular comparison atm is Queensland to California, check out the GDP of each state. Queensland has a debt of around $70 billion, I believe California is around the same.

THAT is why public healthcare here is doomed to collaspe.


Yes, we call that the napa vs shiraz argument. you have not argued the point of this thread "healthcare in america now," your only pointing out what hasn't worked. How that would apply to the US isn't clear. Considering most countries with public health care options and wealth similar to the US are working substantially better, your point here doenst apply to advocacy against me supporting the Obama health care initiative.


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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: blewmeanie]
    #11044812 -

Quote:
it goes to pay for unnecessary bullshit


Including million $ a year salaries for doctors who would make fractions of said amount elsewhere.
And millions in funding billing and insurance administration personnel.


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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: blewmeanie]
    #11044923 -

blewmeanie said:
Knifey Mcstab said:
Like adopting public health care?


Having profit as a factor in health care ensures that prices will constantly rise, it ensures an excess of unnecessary employees sitting around collecting a paycheck, it motivates insurance companies to maximize there gains through cost benefit analysis and charge more while providing less.

It's not even a matter of health care being a right, it's a matter of whats good for society as a whole.


I think that removing profit from the health care industry would greatly reduce the overall cost.

It just seems wrong somehow to profit from suffering.

In my opinion there needs to be a complete rethinking of how we stay healthy in America.

I believe that people should have to pass a P.T. test before they get insurance.
Your rates should be based on how well you maintain your body.
I'm not talking about going to the extreme like the military.
But everyone (15-55) should be able to walk ~2-3 miles in an hour.

If you can't get on a treadmill and do that simple task, then you should be charged more for coverage.

Exercise should be a requirement of everyone, starting in school.
I'm not talking about extreme levels of exercise. Just enough to keep you healthy enough to be able to walk a couple of miles in a certain time. Maybe have them keep their BMI index below a certain point. If you can't do these things then you have to pay higher premiums and co-pays.

This puts a lot of a persons level of health directly in their hands.

If you wanna be a fat fucking slob then your gonna have to pay the extra $$$ for that privilege.

For those people that make an effort to stay healthy, they get to pay the least for their premiums and co-pays

:2cents:


--------------------
Live for the moment you are in now
Don't be bogged down by your past
Don't be afraid of what lies in your future

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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: niteowl]
    #11045015 -

niteowl, that actually sounds like a solid plan.  but the BMI thing would never fly in america.  you'd have protests over weight discrimination.


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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: blewmeanie]
    #11045069 -

blewmeanie said:
it's a sign that Australia is doing something wrong. If anything we should try and understand exactly what that is so that we can avoid making the same mistakes.


The country probably isn't that rich or they're dumb


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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: tiny_rabid_birds]
    #11045104 -

tiny_rabid_birds said:
niteowl, that actually sounds like a solid plan.  but the BMI thing would never fly in america.  you'd have protests over weight discrimination.


Yea, the BMI thing is kinda touchy.

Walking 2-3 miles in an hour is a doable requirement though

even fat people could do that with a bit of practice


--------------------
Live for the moment you are in now
Don't be bogged down by your past
Don't be afraid of what lies in your future

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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: rodfarva]
    #11045262 -

rodfarva said:
In countries that have full public health care funded through government (like france, canada, england etc.) No one makes the argument that a private system should be adopted.


why have some canadian provinces outlawed private health insurance f
that's the case, why do the bills we're seeing contain language that
would impose fines against americans for not participating in the public
'option'


Quote:
That would be like saying i think only those who can afford treatment should get it, and if you can't then you should suffer to the extent of your means. Shorter lives, lost limbs, and carrying contagious diseases is what the poor should be subject to.:sad:


you mean like many of the illegals are bringing into the country? should
they also be serviced under the public health system even though they
often make no contribution to it

Quote:
Essentially they would save $1000 a year in taxes:



hahahaha... so how exactly do we pay for this public option in health care and still lower taxes


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California Has Legalized Child Prostitution

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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #11045307 -

it's be stated several times that proposed public healthcare does not extend to illegal residents. 

and to what are these fines?  i mean, if they're not participating in the public option, then obviously they're going to end up paying more.  but that's not really a fine.  that's a choice to spend more for what would be more premium coverage with more autonomy via the private route.


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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: rodfarva]
    #11045309 -

rodfarva said:
Quote:
it goes to pay for unnecessary bullshit


Including million $ a year salaries for doctors who would make fractions of said amount elsewhere.
And millions in funding billing and insurance administration personnel.



so that's what it boils down to, you're jealous because you dont have
the $277k/yr job that the tittay doktard has, yeah, I'm distraught
because I didnt become president even though my teachers said I could


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California Has Legalized Child Prostitution

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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: tiny_rabid_birds]
    #11045322 -

tiny_rabid_birds said:
it's be stated several times that proposed public healthcare does not extend to illegal residents. 


of course just like all other government programs arent supposed to be extended to illegals, what's said and done are often different
and of course the excuse is that 'it's for the children'

http://partysover.newsvine.com/_news/2009/04/29/2752957-children-of-illegal-aliens-cost-county-welfare-44-million-in-march-up-1-million-dollars-from-last-month


Quote:
and to what are these fines?


http://apnews.myway.com/article/20090908/D9AJCL500.html


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California Has Legalized Child Prostitution

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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #11045474 -

children of illegal aliens are different from illegal aliens.  supreme court decision in 1898 laid the precedent that anyone born on US soil is afforded the rights of a US citizen.

umm.. and that article said that Obama is against fines, that in fact his bill does not support fining people unable to sign up for health insurance.  that was Baucus's proposal that supported fines (and not even a public option).  it was simply a proposal brought up in the discussion, but has no actual support from obama's administration.


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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: tiny_rabid_birds]
    #11045496 -

I don't want the government knowing my medical records and raiding me because I get opiates and them knowing I have drugs convictions.


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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: tiny_rabid_birds]
    #11045506 -

tiny_rabid_birds said:
children of illegal aliens are different from illegal aliens.  supreme court decision in 1898 laid the precedent that anyone born on US soil is afforded the rights of a US citizen.



you're making the assumption that they're all born on US soil

Quote:
umm.. and that article said that Obama is against fines



and we've all seen the credibility of Obamas word


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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: TrancedShroom]
    #11045514 -

TrancedShroom said:
I don't want the government knowing my medical records



lol... they have a database the all hospitals and many governemtn agencies have access to

looks like you're fucked


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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #11045522 -

Only if they had a universal sex system.


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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: TrancedShroom]
    #11045563 -

TrancedShroom said:
I don't want the government knowing my medical records and raiding me because I get opiates and them knowing I have drugs convictions.


i'm sorry, but if that's the only reason you're against a public health care plan that could help SO MANY uninsured... that's just fucked.

pris, the point stands that Obamacare does NOT support fining the uninsured.  you said it did.  it does not.  the amount of complete lies and slander the GOP and associated "grassroots"* organizations are pushing through the media is absurd. please tell me you don't buy into the "death panel" bullshit too.

i can say this about the GOP, though they might not care about their fellow citizens and they might not always use logic in their policies, they sure as fuck know how to sell the people shit and make them think they're getting gold.  though i suppose that'll happen when the salesmen has little to no ethics in regards to business practices.

*see FreedomWorks: the national "grassroots" organization directly funded by conservative high level political players.


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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: tiny_rabid_birds]
    #11045571 -

I didn't say I am against universal health care. I just don't want the government to abuse their power with reading the records.

I'm totally for the health care reform.


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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: TrancedShroom]
    #11045583 -

oh, well in that regard i'm against misuse of private information as well.  i believe there's a very real distinction between helping and prying, which big brother ought to take a lesson on.


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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: tiny_rabid_birds]
    #11045593 -

Dr. Andrew Weil (Namesake of the Weilii mushroom) made some pretty good points on CNN. I suggest a watch.

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/health/2009/09/11/lkl.dr.weil.long.cnn (from this thread)

He made some points that resound with Niteowl: The health problems with this country go far deeper than public vs private insurance.

Our whole health culture and our approach to health is way out of whack. Health care has become an industry, and brought the evils of industrialization with it.

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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: Green_T]
    #11045599 -

Prying into people's business is what the government is all about.


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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: tiny_rabid_birds]
    #11045667 -

tiny_rabid_birds said:
pris, the point stands that Obamacare does NOT support fining the uninsured.  you said it did.


um... no, I never specified obamas health care plan

Quote:
please tell me you don't buy into the "death panel" bullshit too.




actually, I advocate something like that, it would actually sway my opinion of the bill somewhat


Quote:
i can say this about the GOP, though they might not care about their fellow citizens and they might not always use logic in their policies, they sure as fuck know how to sell the people shit and make them think they're getting gold.




it's no different than the democrats


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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: Green_T]
    #11045702 -

Green_T said:
Dr. Andrew Weil (Namesake of the Weilii mushroom) made some pretty good points on CNN. I suggest a watch.

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/health/2009/09/11/lkl.dr.weil.long.cnn (from this thread)

He made some points that resound with Niteowl: The health problems with this country go far deeper than public vs private insurance.

Our whole health culture and our approach to health is way out of whack. Health care has become an industry, and brought the evils of industrialization with it.


i wasn't able to watch the whole thing.  it stopped like 8 minutes in and i couldn't get it to start again, or even skip to a different part.  CNN's flash player sucks, btw.  there's no way to skip ahead, so when i restarted it, i'd have to sit through the same 8 minutes again and simply hope it doesn't freeze again.  i guess i'll actually have it going on in the background.

but anyways, on to what he was saying.  you're going to be hard-pressed to find any one individual who would disagree that we need to be healthier.  the problem is the practice.  how do you make someone adopt healthier practices?  how do you make them work out, make them eat their veggies (i'm totally for subsidizing veggies, btw), make them stop smoking cigs?  you can't.  he said start with education, but quite honestly i don't understand how the courses and emphasis could be designed to gain that much more efficacy.  i mean, we already have health class in school.  we already know about the food groups and that exercise is healthy for us.  yet we don't do it.

and the problem with federal mandates on healthy lifestyles is that.. well.. they're federal mandates.  americans love their personal freedoms (as well they should), so "making" people get healthier wouldn't go over too well.  i'm all for educating the people about other options though.  i liked what he was saying about the healthcare system being able to integrate modern medicine with eastern herbal practices to reduce toxicity in chemo patients.  but all in all, up to the point of the video i was able to watch, implementation of his proposed fixes seems nigh impossible.

i'll let you know what i think when i'm able to finish the rest of the video.


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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: Green_T]
    #11045712 -

Green_T said:
Dr. Andrew Weil (Namesake of the Weilii mushroom) made some pretty good points on CNN. I suggest a watch.

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/health/2009/09/11/lkl.dr.weil.long.cnn (from this thread)

He made some points that resound with Niteowl: The health problems with this country go far deeper than public vs private insurance.

Our whole health culture and our approach to health is way out of whack. Health care has become an industry, and brought the evils of industrialization with it.


That was an awesome interview.

Dr. Weil has hit the nail in the head.
If people started taking better care of themselves
many of the diseases we suffer from today
(high blood pressure, diabetes, obesity)
would go away in a few years,

The way the system is now, they don't want these diseases to go away
because they would loose a great deal of profit from loss of drug sales.

just look at high blood pressure
it spawns many other diseases

if people simply exercised regularly and ate right
most of these cases of HBP would go away
with nothing more that a little preventative maintenance

the current system needs to be scrapped
and a new one put in its place


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Don't be bogged down by your past
Don't be afraid of what lies in your future

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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #11045731 -

Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:
i can say this about the GOP, though they might not care about their fellow citizens and they might not always use logic in their policies, they sure as fuck know how to sell the people shit and make them think they're getting gold.




it's no different than the democrats


i'd say it's different in that the democrats are much less effective.  seriously, look at all the shit we swallowed over the past 8 years.  complete blatant lies.  full-faced unabashed fucking lies directly into the camera, personally looking each viewing citizen directly in the face.  "there are weapons of mass destruction" "terrorist cells in afghanistan are responsible for the attacks, so we're waging war on the afghanis" "if we don't tax the rich, it'll totally benefit you poor folks.  seriously, they're not just going to pocket it all and pad their already bulging pockets."


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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: tiny_rabid_birds]
    #11045744 -

tiny_rabid_birds said:
but anyways, on to what he was saying.  you're going to be hard-pressed to find any one individual who would disagree that we need to be healthier.  the problem is the practice.  how do you make someone adopt healthier practices?  how do you make them work out, make them eat their veggies (i'm totally for subsidizing veggies, btw), make them stop smoking cigs?  you can't.  he said start with education, but quite honestly i don't understand how the courses and emphasis could be designed to gain that much more efficacy.  i mean, we already have health class in school.  we already know about the food groups and that exercise is healthy for us.  yet we don't do it.


You have to start charging people who are unhealthy more for coverage.

That is a start.

Making PT mandatory in school is another start.
First class of every day is a 30 minute warm up.
Even if it is nothing more than a 1/2 mile walk around campus

After 10 years the average level of health will go up.
There will be less people with high blood pressure and obesity.


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Live for the moment you are in now
Don't be bogged down by your past
Don't be afraid of what lies in your future

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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: Green_T]
    #11045792 -

Green_T said:
Niteowl: The health problems with this country go far deeper than public vs private insurance.



which is why I've said 'fix what we already have'


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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #11045854 -

tiny_rabbit_birds speaks pure truth


whoever the fuck is against people getting free health care is basically not human and belongs in a zoo.  or at the bottom of a lake.

anything else is bullshit.

and no one cares if your a junkie Tranced


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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #11045859 -

i don't think there is any "fixing" of what we already have.  i finished the video, and i agree 100% with Dr. Weil on the issues that plague the current system.  healthcare is too much of a capitalist product, too much of a profit-garnering industry.  keeping it entirely private simply will not work, as the industry lobbyists have already shown their incredible power in washington.  it can't be fixed until there is a very real threat to those CEOs wallets.

i am absolutely, whole-heartedly a proponent of prevention over treatment.  niteowl, i think it'd be great if a bit more physical activity during school was required.  in fact, i'm pretty much a proponent of the entire second half of Weil's interview.  prevention over treatment, mix of private and public healthcare (invaluable to keep private healthcare in check fiscally), medical practitioner education in alternative medicines, less emphasis on medical specialization/more on medical generalization, and overall increase in public awareness.  yes.  i think that sums up my stance fairly well.  speaking of, i'd really like to read his book.


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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: tiny_rabid_birds]
    #11045961 -

tiny_rabid_birds said:
i'd say it's different in that the democrats are much less effective.  seriously, look at all the shit we swallowed over the past 8 years.


that's true, the democrats failed in their attempts to keep slavery
legal, they've found another means though with welfare programs, of
course now we dont get any work for the money spent so it would appear
that they are not only ineffective but stupid as well :smirk:

now take a look at what we're swallowing now, a big fat political load, under the bush administration at least it was just a facial

 
Quote:
complete blatant lies.


Dempublicans, republicrats, it doesnt matter which side, it's all lies

Quote:
  full-faced unabashed fucking lies directly into the camera, personally looking each viewing citizen directly in the face.  "there are weapons of mass destruction" "terrorist cells in afghanistan are responsible for the attacks, so we're waging war on the afghanis" "if we don't tax the rich, it'll totally benefit you poor folks.


"I'll only increase taxes on those earning $250k+/yr" "I am the only
candidate who isn’t taking a dime from Washington lobbyist" "Selma
Alabama Got Me Born"(4years prior to the march) "Father Was A Goat
Herder"(with a harvard education)"I'll allow five days of public comment
before signing bills""I've managed to drop the unemployment rate" (in
actuality, unemployment dropped those collecting and subsequently
stopped reporting them)"Restoring the Economy is my #1 Task" (why is he
focusing so hard in this bill as opposed to the job creation)

so really, what's the difference?


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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #11046056 -

Crowd Sourcing. An Explanation.

1. open bill in favorite pdf viewer
http://docs.house.gov/edlabor/AAHCA-BillText-071409.pdf
2. read
3. post your outrage

Eugenics anyone?


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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: stedenko]
    #11046070 -

^ Is there a part where the government claims to force abortions or sterility for those whom they feel carry inferior genes?

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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: stedenko]
    #11046099 -

stedenko said:
Crowd Sourcing. An Explanation.

1. open bill in favorite pdf viewer
http://docs.house.gov/edlabor/AAHCA-BillText-071409.pdf
2. read
3. post your outrage

Eugenics anyone?



how many bills have been voted on that are in excess of 1000 pages
during the obama administration, I wonder what's going to get tacked
onto this one at 3am with a forced vote the following morning

http://www.opencongress.org/bill/111-h3200/text

20% that have read the bill support it... that either means that if it
passes it's once again the politicians voting against the wishs of their
constituents or that 80% of the people that have examined the bill are
conservatives showing that liberals really dont give a shit what goes
through congress as long as those bastards are doing something other
than kissing babies


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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: Green_T]
    #11046109 -

Green_T said:
^ Is there a part where the government claims to force abortions or sterility for those whom they feel carry inferior genes?



no mention of abortion which means theres nothing there barring them from doing it


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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #11046157 -

to keep slavery legal?  you couldn't possibly be referring the democratic party of 150 years ago as if it is the same entity that it is today.

and i don't quite understand how white lies about his upbringing taken out of context are really pertinent in any form.

so far as the restoration of the economy, job creation is not the only means by which this needs occur.  if american citizens were actually covered medically, it'd mean less debt for the tens of thousand who would have fallen ill uninsured if the undesired course is taken.  and a small amount of job creation in the government sector to deal with it all.  but the thing is, you're right, there shouldn't be this much energy and time focused on this bill, because it shouldn't be encountering this much opposition!  only in america will such a significant contingent of political leadership argue against making sure its citizens are able to actually receive medical treatment.

and besides, i've said it before and i'll say it again.  he's only been in the office for less than 9 months.  there's no way he could "fix" the economy in such a short time.  hell, he hasn't even had an opportunity to enact his own economic policies, as the past 9 months have simply been spent mucking out the seemingly endless piles of shit from the last administration.

with all due respect, i think the load we've taken from Obama thus far has been about 1/100th of the shit we swallowed with Bush.  the entire fucking afghani and iraq war!  the allowance of many of the fortune 500's most profitable corps to simply NOT PAY TAXES.  are you fucking kidding me?  that is a far more grave transgression and insult to the american people.


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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: Green_T]
    #11046196 -

Page 31 begins to describe the advisory committee that decides how to administer benefits.

"1 (A) 9 members who are not Federal employees or officers and who are appointed by the President. (B) 9 members who are not Federal employees or officers and who are appointed by the Comptroller General of the United States in a manner similar to the manner in which the Comptroller General appoints members to the Medicare Payment Advisory Commission under
section 1805(c) of the Social Security Act.
C) Such even number of members (not to
exceed 8) who are Federal employees and officers, as the President may appoint. Such initial appointments shall be made not later than 60 days after the date of the enactment of this Act."

Industry insiders and federal employees decided by the president. fail.


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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: tiny_rabid_birds]
    #11046236 -

Page 43

"(c) DATA COLLECTION.—The Commissioner shall collect data for purposes of carrying out the Commissioner’s duties, including for purposes of promoting quality and value, protecting consumers, and addressing disparities in health and health care and may share such data with the Secretary of Health and Human Services."

your privacy, gone.


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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: tiny_rabid_birds]
    #11046250 -

tiny_rabid_birds said:
and i don't quite understand how white lies about his upbringing taken out of context are really pertinent in any form.


a lie is a lie, lets not try to quantify one over the other because it's pretty well know that a man that will lie over the little shit will damned sure lie over the big shit

Quote:
so far as the restoration of the economy, job creation is not the only means by which this needs occur.


and yet trillions have been alloted and nothing but more job losses, more people losing their health care coverage, homes, cars, etc...

Quote:
  if american citizens were actually covered medically, it'd mean less debt for the tens of thousand who would have fallen ill uninsured if the undesired course is taken.


but the vast majority, 85% are in fact covered medically, and for the
minority I'll have to pay more in taxes further reducing my quality of living


Quote:
and a small amount of job creation in the government sector to deal with it all.



creation of more government that does nothing but collect a fat paycheck
while the backbone of this country goes hungry, how long can we aggoed
to lose half a million jobs per month for the creation of 80 in government

Quote:
but the thing is, you're right, there shouldn't be this much energy and time focused on this bill, because it shouldn't be encountering this much opposition!


unless it's like the rest of the redundant legislation, did you know
it's now illegal to smuggle drugs into the country using a submarine, I
would have though that smuggling drugs into the country being illegal
would have covered any means of transport

Quote:
only in america will such a significant contingent of political leadership argue against making sure its citizens are able to actually receive medical treatment.



the american dream doesnt consist of me having to support your 80 bastard offspring when I struggle enough trying to support my own
little bastards


Quote:
and besides, i've said it before and i'll say it again.  he's only been in the office for less than 9 months.  there's no way he could "fix" the economy in such a short time.  hell, he hasn't even had an opportunity to enact his own economic policies, as the past 9 months have simply been spent mucking out the seemingly endless piles of shit from the last administration.


of course, be like Obama and blame bush, in the 9 months he's been in
office he's managed to rack up as much debt as it's taken bush 6 of his
8 years to do, by the time he's done, we'll exceed 17 trillion in debt


 
Quote:
the entire fucking afghani and iraq war!


those are UN actions, remember, it's the UN killing innocent civilians,
not obama or bush, lets assume this is workings of bush for a moment,
guess what... it's obamas choice to continue it, which he's happily doing

Quote:
the allowance of many of the fortune 500's most profitable corps to simply NOT PAY TAXES.  are you fucking kidding me?  that is a far more grave transgression and insult to the american people.



is it any different than 60% of the people paying no taxes at all,
allowing foreign goods into the country without duties or any of the
other thousands of bad policy decisions made in previous
administrations, many of those decisions being the same ones that have
us in this debate to begin with


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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: stedenko]
    #11046266 -

right, because after the patriot act we still have privacy legally afforded to us anyways.

at least it specifies the purposes of the data use.  so should there be any misuse in an attempt to press criminal charges (which i doubt - one is usually exempt from prosecution of self-afflicting crimes when under medical care), there is that specific clause to cite.  data used for any other reason is unlawful, short and simple.  for medical coverage, i personally would be willing to pay such a nominal fee.


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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: stedenko]
    #11046268 -

page 51

"the Secretary of Health and Human Services shall, not later than 18 months after the date of the enactment of this Act, promulgate such regulations as are necessary or appropriate to insure that all health care and related services (including insurance coverage and public health activities) covered by this Act are provided (whether directly or through contractual, licensing, or other arrangements) without regard to personal characteristics extraneous to the provision of high quality health care or related services."

concientous objector, constitutional objections, no.
mandatory vaccination? keep in mind, we wont see the implementation or the other regulations "promulgated" for 18 months...


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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: stedenko]
    #11046275 -

page 53

if the act is unconstitutional, it will remain in effect.

"16 If any provision of this Act, or any application of such
17 provision to any person or circumstance, is held to be un18
constitutional, the remainder of the provisions of this Act
19 and the application of the provision to any other person
20 or circumstance shall not be affected."

it should say"if any part of this act in unconstitutional it will be removed" imho


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Edited by stedenko (09/12/09 12:27 PM)

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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: tiny_rabid_birds]
    #11046288 -

tiny_rabid_birds said:
right, because after the patriot act we still have privacy legally afforded to us anyways.

at least it specifies the purposes of the data use.  so should there be any misuse in an attempt to press criminal charges (which i doubt - one is usually exempt from prosecution of self-afflicting crimes when under medical care), there is that specific clause to cite.  data used for any other reason is unlawful, short and simple.  for medical coverage, i personally would be willing to pay such a nominal fee.


Fuck it, my rights are gone anyway....may as well give the rest away.


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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: stedenko]
    #11046292 -

To the first 50 pages, I say LAME FAIL

someone elses turn to do the next 50, next poster?


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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #11046351 -

no, not all lies are the same.  though his father had a harvard education, he did not lie about him being a goat herder at one point.  it may be slightly misleading, but it's innocent.

and i'm sorry, but you simply cannot blame the money spent thus far entirely on obama's administration.  if bush hadn't cut taxes prior to the 04 election for no good reason other than political gain, and if he hadn't bullied the UN into supporting his war efforts to incite the obscene war, and if he hadn't completely catered to the elite few's pocketbooks, our debt/GDP ratio would be in much better shape to handle the world economic crises that Obama took presidency in the midst of.  it's a simple fact that bush acted completely without regards to sound economic judgment.  leading economists the world 'round agree, including Paul Krugman, whose name appears on more int'l economics textbooks than pretty much anyone.

as far as the continuation of the war goes, i'm sure you realize war is incredibly complex.  the situation is quite volatile, and the extraction process has proved quite difficult.  we should have never forced ourselves into the situation in the first place, but now that we have, we're stuck.  every time troops try to leave an occupied territory, there are uprisings and total chaos between our supporters and dissenters, which the iraqi gov't seems to have trouble controlling in our absence.  we can't simply fuck the entire country up, then leave it in tattered ruins, adding insult to injury and spitting in the face of international dealings.  the world hates us enough as is.  Obama's trying to actually regain a respectable name of diplomacy for the country. 

i don't think he's infallible.  i don't think he's the messiah.  but i do think that bush acted almost completely without reason, and absolutely without regard for the well-being of the common man versus the elite few.  and now he's got a shit job trying to clean it up.  in the middle of an international economic crisis no less.  the whole while he can't even get a fucking bill through congress because of the absurd focus on making him a one-term president rather than actually trying to work together to get shit done.


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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: stedenko]
    #11046399 -

stedenko said:
tiny_rabid_birds said:
right, because after the patriot act we still have privacy legally afforded to us anyways.

at least it specifies the purposes of the data use.  so should there be any misuse in an attempt to press criminal charges (which i doubt - one is usually exempt from prosecution of self-afflicting crimes when under medical care), there is that specific clause to cite.  data used for any other reason is unlawful, short and simple.  for medical coverage, i personally would be willing to pay such a nominal fee.


Fuck it, my rights are gone anyway....may as well give the rest away.


i think your right to privacy on the phone and computer are a might bit more important than the privacy of your medical history, which isn't even private anyways.  the government is already able to access medical records.  there's no change there.


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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: tiny_rabid_birds]
    #11046420 -

tiny_rabid_birds said:
right, because after the patriot act we still have privacy legally afforded to us anyways.



how would my privacy have been invaded, I'm not engaged in any illegal
activities or acts of terrorism, what has the patriot act allowed that a
court order or warrant wouldnt


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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #11046441 -

um.. the ability to completely bypass the legal procedures that are a warrant/court order. 

it went from, okay, you can invade his privacy so long as you go through the proper channels and get court approval, and he is deemed a threat/participant in illegal activities;
to simply, okay, go for it.  nothing stopping you.  you have some suspicions but no real evidence?  yeah yeah, whatever, we already told you to do it.


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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: tiny_rabid_birds]
    #11046530 -

tiny_rabid_birds said:
no, not all lies are the same.  though his father had a harvard education, he did not lie about him being a goat herder at one point.  it may be slightly misleading, but it's innocent.


if you unclog a toilet that doesnt make you a plumber, in fact from the
looks of things his father was a cook or according to other accounts was
a wealthy farmer meaning Barack Sr. was a child of priveledge and
education as opposed to the poor goat herder we keep hearing about,
seems the only person that calls him a goat herder is Barack Jr.

a lie is a lie and here's a fellow that's obviously very ashamed of both
the white and the african heritage of his family if he's making up
stories to cover the fact that his father didnt come from poverty, the same story he claims of himself

Quote:
and i'm sorry, but you simply cannot blame the money spent thus far entirely on obama's administration.



sure I can, the same way Obama blames bush for everything

Quote:
if bush hadn't cut taxes prior to the 04 election for no good reason other than political gain, and if he hadn't bullied the UN into supporting his war efforts to incite the obscene war, and if he hadn't completely catered to the elite few's pocketbooks, our debt/GDP ratio would be in much better shape to handle the world economic crises that Obama took presidency in the midst of.


well in that case if Clinton hadnt signed bills allowing for deregulation of banking, the exportation of jobs without suffering penalties through taxation for the goods shipped back by these 'american' business'... you cant blame it on bush

 
Quote:
it's a simple fact that bush acted completely without regards to sound economic judgment.


like Clinton, Carter and Obama?

 
Quote:
leading economists the world 'round agree, including Paul Krugman, whose name appears on more int'l economics textbooks than pretty much anyone.



the same Paul Krugman that didnt see this economic crisis coming 10
years ago like so many other economists, I dont believe I'll take his
word for anything, seems like a short sighted liberal twat

Quote:
as far as the continuation of the war goes, i'm sure you realize war is incredibly complex.  the situation is quite volatile, and the extraction process has proved quite difficult.


extraction by sending in more troops?


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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: tiny_rabid_birds]
    #11046537 -

tiny_rabid_birds said:
um.. the ability to completely bypass the legal procedures that are a warrant/court order. 



feel free to show us because I remember when this bill was on clinton desk back in 1993


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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: tiny_rabid_birds]
    #11046870 -

tiny_rabid_birds said:
stedenko said:
tiny_rabid_birds said:
right, because after the patriot act we still have privacy legally afforded to us anyways.

at least it specifies the purposes of the data use.  so should there be any misuse in an attempt to press criminal charges (which i doubt - one is usually exempt from prosecution of self-afflicting crimes when under medical care), there is that specific clause to cite.  data used for any other reason is unlawful, short and simple.  for medical coverage, i personally would be willing to pay such a nominal fee.


Fuck it, my rights are gone anyway....may as well give the rest away.


i think your right to privacy on the phone and computer are a might bit more important than the privacy of your medical history, which isn't even private anyways.  the government is already able to access medical records.  there's no change there.


sheeple...


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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: Mr.Pink]
    #11049966 -

I've seen a lot of great political posts but this one was awesome!  I love the real life comparison!


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  Say hello to my little friend.    and...      From Sonny
     
AFOAF's Coffee Experiment  //  Rye Berry Cakes  //  My FOAF  //  I killed my baby Cubes!
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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: cne9999]
    #11050668 -

Both Pris and tiny have valid points. But Tiny, I do believe that the war should end and we pull out faster than a guy about to splooge into an ovulating mexican chick looking for her first child.

I mean we bust their ass and then we stay there and coax things over? Really? How many bullies have you seen that beat your ass and then offer you a lollie-pop afterwards?

Maybe we should switch it up.

-On a side note(whoever said this) how am I a junkie? LOL. Kind of a little of topic.


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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: tiny_rabid_birds]
    #11050719 -

Paul Krugman was the moron that thought Greenspan's idea of creating a housing bubble was a great idea.

You would do well to understand that Keynesian economists are all about the growth of big government and intervention in the economy. 

The current puppet is spending/creating money at a far greater rate than Dubya.  He is EXPANDING war overseas.  The jackass supports bullshit like carbon taxes which would CRIPPLE the economy.  Carbon taxes are like a tax on production.  If you can't fucking increase production HOW THE FUCK do you pull yourself out of an economic slump? 

The chief teleprompter reader had the most well funded political campaign in history.  A lot of deep pockets wanted him as their "face man" to push their agendas.

Government healthcare?  Why the fuck would any sane person want the same group of goons that RUIN EVERYTHING THEY GET INVOLVED IN to be in charge of your well-being?

FUCK THAT!

People would do well to stop asking for damn handouts from the government.  Understand that the government always has strings attached to their "gifts". 

Government wants to run people's lives from the cradle to the grave and it is only an apathetic sorry excuse for a human being that supports that!


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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: Mr.Al]
    #11050736 -

I can see what you're saying Mr. Al, but at the same time the doctors/hospitals are running the healthcare system like the goons in the office. There are strings attached to everything in this country.

In all honesty, as a group in the US, no one gives 2 shits about the other person that actually needs help because we have been used to getting fucked over by the majority since our grandparent's generation.

It will never end, this cluster fuck of a nation we're in. It is nice to have Obama stating that we can take back the government as a democracy, but who is he really preaching too? The choir!-sarcasm.


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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: Mr.Al]
    #11050974 -

i love how the actual issue of healthcare keeps being avoided and you guys start simply attacking obama.

why would i want the government to get involved in making sure it's citizens are able to have health insurance?  gee, i don't know, maybe because there are 46.3 MILLION uninsured.  maybe because private healthcare has been making a complete mockery of the system, charging absolutely absurd rates for even the most basic care.  maybe because like rodfarva pointed out, we're number 1 in GDP by multiples of the nearest nation, yet so many still cannot afford a simple necessity in life.  maybe because we've seen integrated private/public healthcare systems work abroad far better than our current system.

i just don't know.  it could be any number of those things.


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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: tiny_rabid_birds]
    #11051009 -

Obama is a good guy. I can't believe everyone attacks him either? This is a President that actually wants to help our nation, yet people bash him constantly.

Now his cabinet might be different and his czars, but ultimately we didn't vote for them, we voted for him and I think if America actually gives him time to straighten economic issues out, we will like the end result.


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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: tiny_rabid_birds]
    #11051194 -

tiny_rabid_birds said:
i love how the actual issue of healthcare keeps being avoided and you guys start simply attacking obama.


like you're attacking bush, a FORMER president that has nothing to do
with this health care plan, that didnt create the financial crisis that
didnt fly a couple of planes into buildings in new york sparking a war
in the middle east

Quote:
why would i want the government to get involved in making sure it's citizens are able to have health insurance?  gee, i don't know, maybe because there are 46.3 MILLION uninsured.


then why arent you advocating the overhaul of the system government has
already put into place several decades ago as opposed to new legislation
how many of those 46million people are citizens and how many are
illegals that we'll be paying the medical bills for


Quote:
i just don't know. 



well that's quite obvious


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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #11051200 -

46.3 Million citizens.  US citizens, paperwork and all.


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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: TrancedShroom]
    #11051212 -

TrancedShroom said:
Obama is a good guy. I can't believe everyone attacks him either? This is a President that actually wants to help our nation, yet people bash him constantly.


how does expanding the size and scope of government aid the people, how
does dumping trillions of dollars into financial institutions help the
people, how does bailing out businesses that have forsaken the very
people that put them at the top until recent years help the american people

Dubya gave them tax breaks, they moved to mexico, Obama gave them
billions and they sent billions overseas with the claim that they wanted
to prevent the same disaster from happening in the other markets

Quote:
we voted for him and I think if America actually gives him time to straighten economic issues out, we will like the end result.


then why isnt he focusing on his number one priority instead of this
health care bill, why do you think those that voted for him are losing
faith in this word... could it be because he's just...



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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: tiny_rabid_birds]
    #11051216 -

and so far as bush's involvement in the crisis.  internationally, no he didn't start it.  but domestically, that's damned debatable. 

quite honestly, i can't believe you stand up for him.  he will literally go down in the history books as the worst president.  i just can't conceive how someone such as yourself, who appears lucid and competent, can actually support him.

but the puppets are neither here nor there.  healthcare is the issue at hand.  the current system simply is not working.  it's too much of a profit-garnering industry.  CEOs should not be getting hugely fat and rich off healthcare, when so many millions of americans are struggling to afford the most basic forms.


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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: tiny_rabid_birds]
    #11051217 -

When government gets involved in a particular industry it gets expensive.  The extensive government regulation of healthcare has made it expensive.  Government programs reduce competition in the marketplace by wiping out the private market.  The government healthcare programs are paid for by inflation and taxes.  A few well connected corporations would make a killing providing healthcare through the government.  Prices for medical procedures would go through the roof BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN PEOPLE IN GOVERNMENT "HOOK UP" THEIR BUDDIES.  It is called crony capitalism.  Halliburton receiving a large number of no-bid contracts in Iraq is a great example of crony capitalism at work.


Obama's campaign raised more money than any campaign in history.  The money came from REALLY deep pockets.  It is foolish and naive to think that the puppet has your best interests in mind.  The individuals who forked over the cash to fund him own his ass. 


You would have thought that the Auto bailout would have pointed that out.  Some of his biggest contributors were auto-unions. 


Chicago is a very corrupt place full of well funded organized crime.  That's where he started his political career.




The debt America is in is unsustainable.  The clown is spending money faster than anything we've seen before.  It is bankrupting the nation.  We can not afford it.

Instead of buying into the cult of personality you should study some real economics - mises.org


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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: tiny_rabid_birds]
    #11051248 -

tiny_rabid_birds said:
and so far as bush's involvement in the crisis.  internationally, no he didn't start it.  but domestically, that's damned debatable. 


it started with carter, was followed up by many pieces of legislation by
clinton and this is the domestic end, it's far from debatable, it's
documented fact

Quote:
quite honestly, i can't believe you stand up for him.


I dont see the point in being the Obama, lay the blame at the feet of
the people responsible, dont just blame the previous administration just
because the public already has a bad taste in their mouths for the guy

 
Quote:
he will literally go down in the history books as the worst president.


obamas term has just begun

 
Quote:
i just can't conceive how someone such as yourself, who appears lucid and competent, can actually support him.




because I'm not blinded by media hype


Quote:
healthcare is the issue at hand.  the current system simply is not working.  it's too much of a profit-garnering industry.  CEOs should not be getting hugely fat and rich off healthcare, when so many millions of americans are struggling to afford the most basic forms.



so you're saying it boils down to profit, you dont want to see  someone
else wealthy if you arent, the foundation of a business is to eventually
generate a profit, they wouldnt start one regardless of it's nature if
there was no money in it, if you want to discuss profiting off the backs
of others, look at charities... as I've mentioned a dozen times there's
already a public health care system in place that includes clinics,
hospitals and even  insurance programs, so why exactly do we need
another one that's going to be fucked up just as badly as what we have
now... why not repair what we have since we're in a time of economic
crisis, doesnt frugality make sense when people are going homeless


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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: Mr.Al]
    #11051264 -

i'm actually not even a whole-hearted supporter of obama.  i simply think he deserves more than 9 months to prove his worth.

simply having a public option does not mean medical costs would rise.  you're working under the assumption that we'd have corruption like that of the soviet union before it's fall.  i'm not going to deny the existence corruption, but i highly doubt it would be to the extent that the cost of procedures would "go through the roof".  hell, they're already about 10x the cost of the exact same procedures abroad.  your assumption of crony capitalism does not, in fact, fit into standard economics models, of which i'm quite familiar given i have a degree in economics (as well as mngt & society).

and once again, i'm done discussing the presidents.  they're neither here nor there in relation to the fact that in the current system, a much too high proportion of americans simply cannot receive affordable healthcare.


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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #11051357 -

Prisoner#1 said:
so you're saying it boils down to profit, you dont want to see someone else wealthy if you arent


Jesus Christ man, that isn't the issue at all.

Health care should not be a FOR PROFIT ORGANIZATION

I could care less how rich the CEO of Ford Motors gets.
People don't have to own a new fucking car, it's a luxury.
People have to be healthy in order for our country to prosper.
Your health should not be based on how much money you make

Having a medical organization with its main concern being profit instead of helping people.........is EVIL and wrong
For a Dr to make millions a year for NOT helping sick people.......is EVIL and wrong
That's how our system functions now and it is sad.

Profiting on the suffering of others is wrong and should be illegal in the U.S.

Quote:
as I've mentioned a dozen times there's
already a public health care system in place that includes clinics,
hospitals and even  insurance programs


The fact that these programs are not offered to everyone makes them unfair.

I should have to option to buy into either the most expensive or the least expensive insurance programs out there.


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Live for the moment you are in now
Don't be bogged down by your past
Don't be afraid of what lies in your future

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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: TrancedShroom]
    #11051514 -

TrancedShroom said:
Obama is a good guy. I can't believe everyone attacks him either? This is a President that actually wants to help our nation, yet people bash him constantly.

Now his cabinet might be different and his czars, but ultimately we didn't vote for them, we voted for him and I think if America actually gives him time to straighten economic issues out, we will like the end result.


Let me see if I can explain this in a way that makes sense.

Who did Bush and Clinton work for? Corporations
Who does obama work for? Corporations

NOT YOU

Stop this silly shit argument please, there is only us and them.


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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: niteowl]
    #11051560 -

niteowl said:
Prisoner#1 said:
so you're saying it boils down to profit, you dont want to see someone else wealthy if you arent


Jesus Christ man, that isn't the issue at all.

Health care should not be a FOR PROFIT ORGANIZATION



really because his statement as well as yours say otherwise, seriously why would profit be brought into it if profit wasnt an issue, doctards invest many thouands of dolars into education, shouldnt they see a return on that investment, wouldnt that return be a profit, most doctors are a business entity licensed by the state and you guys say they shouldnt be earning all that cash, well guess what, take away the incentive and they'll be gone, the same holds true for insurance

but since government sponsored health care is what we're discussing, lets look at how well government has run everything else like medicare,
medicaid, the VA hospitals, the state funded hospitals, yeah, it certainly seems that government knows what the fuck they're doing since hundreds of hospitals are closing

hey, lets take a look at a few of these hospitals, especially the govt run and not-for-profit system you seem to be so fond of

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28394340/
http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/queens/2009/03/01/2009-03-01_councilman_eric_gioia_rips_hospital_clos.html
http://www.nurseweek.com/features/99-5/hospital.html
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0NUZ/is_11_11/ai_n7070302/


even the shriners hospitals to whom I've donated a lot of money over they years are closing their doors
http://open.salon.com/blog/coyoteoldstyle/2009/05/04/shriners_hospital_closings_are_no_laughing_matter


but guess what, there's some hospitals that arent closing in a time when we have a $1.3bn budget deficit, can you guess which ones?


Quote:
I could care less how rich the CEO of Ford Motors gets.
People don't have to own a new fucking car, it's a luxury.
People have to be healthy in order for our country to prosper.
Your health should not be based on how much money you make


I care because many of those paychecks are tax payer funded and since
when does it matter how much money you make, the government requires all
hospitals to accept patients for emergency services and life saving
treatments regardless of their income or ability to pay, as it stands we
have plenty of healthy people but government has allowed a roadblock to
prevent out prosperity, hasnt it occurred to anyone that it's the
government that's fucking the system up...


Quote:
Having a medical organization with its main concern being profit instead of helping people.........is EVIL and wrong
For a Dr to make millions a year for NOT helping sick people.......is EVIL and wrong
That's how our system functions now and it is sad.



and you're completely wrong, which doctors make millions per year for
not helping unless they're under the government agenda of 'no
unnecessary procedures', in fact how many doctors are making millions
from any sort of patient care, hell as I've pointed out a hundred times
the government makes more from health care, they collect taxes from
everyone to pay for medical care under it's programs and then turn
around and seize the assets of those that received it after their death
now lets talk about what's evil and unfair

Quote:
Profiting on the suffering of others is wrong and should be illegal in the U.S.


profiting by making others suffer is the governments role in the world
now, what was it that should be illegal?

Quote:
Quote:
as I've mentioned a dozen times there's
already a public health care system in place that includes clinics,
hospitals and even  insurance programs


The fact that these programs are not offered to everyone makes them unfair.


so why fuck around with all this time and money when revamping the
system that's in place is what needs to be done, since hospitals cant
turn you away for emergency treatment it's not like people are unable to
get the services, as we can tell, not everyone want these services anyway

Quote:
I should have to option to buy into either the most expensive or the least expensive insurance programs out there.


you have that option, that's why there's the ability to shop around, pay
your phone bill and make a few calls, if it's government mandated then
there's no shopping around, everyone pays whether they want to or not


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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #11053181 -

Quote:
but since government sponsored health care is what we're discussing, lets look at how well government has run everything else like medicare,
medicaid, the VA hospitals, the state funded hospitals, yeah, it certainly seems that government knows what the fuck they're doing since hundreds of hospitals are closing


Using medicare as an explanatory example of what the gov will do with universal healthcare is like sending 10 % of an army to battle, and expecting to win the war.

General pris: "you say we need 10 times as many resources to win this fight?"
colnel: "yes it's the only way to meet our objectives."
General Pris: "well Lets send in the first 10 % and see how they do first.... wouldn't want to get in over our heads"


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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: rodfarva]
    #11054155 -

For profit healthcare, explanation from inception.
And may I say, Fuck nixon.

Quote:
Nixon on health care
From Kaiserthrive.org:

Perhaps the best introduction to the Kaiser HMO and Kaiser Permanente Medical Care Plan is the summary by Mr. Edgar Kaiser that the less Kaiser does for patients the more money it makes. To get the full context one can go to the University of Virginia and review the presentation Mr. Edgar Kaiser (then Kaiser CEO) made to President Nixon through Mr. Erlichman — the less we do the more we earn. This convinced President Nixon to go forward with the HMO Act of 1973 with Kaiser as the template. The conversation is recorded below within the Nixon White House Tapes:

John D. Ehrlichman: “On the … on the health business …”

President Nixon: “Yeah.”

Ehrlichman: “… we have now narrowed down the vice president’s problems on this thing to one issue and that is whether we should include these health maintenance organizations like Edgar Kaiser’s Permanente thing. The vice president just cannot see it. We tried 15 ways from Friday to explain it to him and then help him to understand it. He finally says, ‘Well, I don’t think they’ll work, but if the President thinks it’s a good idea, I’ll support him a hundred percent.’”

President Nixon: “Well, what’s … what’s the judgment?”

Ehrlichman: “Well, everybody else’s judgment very strongly is that we go with it.”

President Nixon: “All right.”

Ehrlichman: “And, uh, uh, he’s the one holdout that we have in the whole office.”

President Nixon: “Say that I … I … I’d tell him I have doubts about it, but I think that it’s, uh, now let me ask you, now you give me your judgment. You know I’m not to keen on any of these damn medical programs.”

Ehrlichman: “This, uh, let me, let me tell you how I am …”

President Nixon: [Unclear.]

Ehrlichman: “This … this is a …”

President Nixon: “I don’t [unclear] …”

Ehrlichman: “… private enterprise one.”

President Nixon: “Well, that appeals to me.”

Ehrlichman: “Edgar Kaiser is running his Permanente deal for profit. And the reason that he can … the reason he can do it … I had Edgar Kaiser come in … talk to me about this and I went into it in some depth. All the incentives are toward less medical care, because …”

President Nixon: [Unclear.]

Ehrlichman: “… the less care they give them, the more money they make.”

President Nixon: “Fine.” [Unclear.]

Ehrlichman: [Unclear] “… and the incentives run the right way.”

President Nixon: “Not bad.”

The preceding transcription is from the University of Virginia for the clearest possible presentation (pathway discovered by Vickie Travis). Check - February 17, 1971, 5:26 pm - 5:53 pm, Oval Office Conversation 450-23. Look for: tape rmn_e450c.



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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: rodfarva]
    #11054256 -

No THIS is the reason why the US is afraid of universal health care.

Cost is really on the bottom of my concerns


Quote:
Here's some stats recently published in The Investors Business Daily (although various sources cite slight variations to these depending on the year of study, the trend is clear and consistent)

In the US, 93% of those diagnosed with diabetes receive their first treatment within six months. In Canada, only 43% do. And in England, only 15% do.

In the US, 77% of patients waiting to see a medical specialist are seen by one within four weeks. In Canada, 43% are, and in England 40% needing a medical specialist seen by one within four weeks.

In the US, there are 71 MRI/CT machines per million people. In Canada there are 18 per million. And in England, there are 14 per million.

In the US, the 5-year survival rate for leukemia is about 50%. In Europe, it is 35%.

In the US, the survival rate for prostate cancer is 81%. In France, it is 62%. And in England, it's 44%.


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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: buckwheat]
    #11054352 -

No shit people! I don't believe that anyone person is out to help us out in general. When is the last person that you knew(personally) that had power help out everyone that he/she has met? Not a goddamn soul!

I am not ignorant by all means, but I do believe that Obama is trying. Simply put. Might not happen, but he stands a hell of a lot better chance than that dick motherfuck Bush did.


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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: buckwheat]
    #11056165 -

buckwheat said:
No THIS is the reason why the US is afraid of universal health care.

Cost is really on the bottom of my concerns


Quote:
Here's some stats recently published in The Investors Business Daily (although various sources cite slight variations to these depending on the year of study, the trend is clear and consistent)

In the US, 93% of those diagnosed with diabetes receive their first treatment within six months. In Canada, only 43% do. And in England, only 15% do.

In the US, 77% of patients waiting to see a medical specialist are seen by one within four weeks. In Canada, 43% are, and in England 40% needing a medical specialist seen by one within four weeks.

In the US, there are 71 MRI/CT machines per million people. In Canada there are 18 per million. And in England, there are 14 per million.

In the US, the 5-year survival rate for leukemia is about 50%. In Europe, it is 35%.

In the US, the survival rate for prostate cancer is 81%. In France, it is 62%. And in England, it's 44%.



Im sure your not arguing to the center of the issue because your failing to describe how any of this should effect governing and policy decisions. you do bring up some interesting points about what would cause personal fear of such a system. Remember, people are only units of statistical measurement in America. Read that last sentence again.

I think whoever did those surveys needs to get their priorities straight, and execute a study that considers confounding variables if they wish to analyse such a serious issue! Consider what the results would be if you cross tabulated those results with subsections of the population in each country mentioned. (if i had an hour i would produce the data equivalents, but for now you will only get my hypothesis...) 

First off i would cross tabulate a statistical relationship to ethnic discrimination by comparing how many minority citizens received treatment within 6 months when diagnosed with diabetes, or survived prostate cancer or saw a specialist. My hypothesis is that only the USA would have a disparity within minority populations (greater than %10.)

The next thing that bothers me about this is the prostate cancer survival rate. I would like to know what the parameters were for this. What defines a prostate cancer patient? once the cancer takes over it spreads to other organs, the blood, or multiple places in the body. This means when the patient dies the cause of death becomes cancer of the ____. if diagnosed with prostate cancer before the spread, that patient would most likely be considered a "prostate cancer" respondent.

The problem with this is in the US people without regular exams (for whatever reason.. poor, laid off, no public requirement etc.)would not be diagnosed as "prostate cancer" patients. They would die with cancer all over their body and this would be considered a different ailment, therefore only some of those that were not diagnosed with "prostate cancer" would actually die from cancer in the prostate alone excluding them from the results. The fact is a random patient is vastly more likely to be diagnosed and documented in countries such as england or canada, making the survival rate more similar than this statistic want to acknowledge. 

This could be quantified by statistically proving, by country, prostate cancer survival rate among patients that received regular check ups and comparing that data to the previous survey's results; with the rule that if prostate cancer is diagnosed alone before other cancer positives, the respondent will be included. My hypothesis is that survival rate depends on early diagnosis, thus those not diagnosed before death should be considered spurious to statistical conclusions.

I know many people take "statistical evidence" such as u present for face value, and many of you will have gotten bored or confused and not read my post. All i have to say is read between the line when you attempt to analyze a presentation ment to sway your political opinion. Especially when the case is being made by a blaitantly republican biased publication such as Investors Business Daily.


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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: rodfarva]
    #11056227 -

rodfarva said:
Im sure your not arguing to the center of the issue because your failing to describe how any of this should effect governing and policy decisions.



I guess the concept of 'when government gets involved it fucks it all
up' eludes you, government shouldnt be making policy regarding my health
like the pro choice folks say 'keep you laws off my body'

Quote:
I think whoever did those surveys needs to get their priorities straight Especially when the case is being made by a blaitantly republican biased publication such as Investors Business Daily.


hahahaha... so it must be republican since it doesnt agree with your
opinion, it's the IBD, a financial publication, it's aimed at helping
the average joe with a couple of extra bucks earn more money. do you
have issues with people having money as well?

is the wall street journal a republican paper too?


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California Has Legalized Child Prostitution

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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #11058486 -

Heres a sample of some of their political cartoons if you really want to stand by the statement
Quote:
hahahaha... so it must be republican since it doesnt agree with your
opinion, it's the IBD, a financial publication, it's aimed at helping
the average joe with a couple of extra bucks earn more money. do you
have issues with people having money as well?

is the wall street journal a republican paper too?




So you tell me, are the right wing or just anti-liberal? So i guess you would argue that fox news isn't biased because they claim to be neutral as well?

Pris you sound like a sheep. Did you have anything to say about what else i wrote?


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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: rodfarva]
    #11058524 -

rodfarva said:
So you tell me, are the right wing or just anti-liberal? So i guess you would argue that fox news isn't biased because they claim to be neutral as well?



so it's gotta be the false dichotomy, both choices are the same

I suppose MSNBC, CBS, ABC, NBC, etc... arent biased since they produce about an equal content of truth just slanted the other way


Quote:
Pris you sound like a sheep. Did you have anything to say about what else i wrote?


I'm the sheep but you're parroting Obama care without looking at the
history of this government, the administration or the tools slapping
their names all over the bill... there's numerous responses in this
thread from me, I must have read something from someone, you may have
been included in the mix


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California Has Legalized Child Prostitution

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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #11058704 -

I got my doctor. My bush doctor...



...Legalize.


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Ratings are bullshit, opt out...
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/10525736#10525736

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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #11058926 -

Im not calling you a sheep, it's a valid perspective that all televised/print media is flawed once commercialiced.
Just like theres a flaw in contracting private soldiers and healthcare.

This thread isn't the debate on health care that will conclude the argument. I just dont know to many other places to sound in on this topic. We're polarized on the issue at hand, and im not trying to score points in the argument. I follow your reasoning and am still not compelled to a different thought direction. :shrug:

keep it going tho. We have a pretty good serious conversation here. I would like to hear more from the international posters. (NON-US)

The other place i found most interesting to talk about this topic is a graduate class on racism im in.
This issue's reflection seems to collide with the war on drugs in terms of its effect on minorities in the US.
If it can be done well, and in the event there is a solution enacted that most Americans are happy about, it would be a large step toward racial equality in this country.


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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: rodfarva]
    #11059252 -

rodfarva said:
buckwheat said:
No THIS is the reason why the US is afraid of universal health care.

Cost is really on the bottom of my concerns


Quote:
Here's some stats recently published in The Investors Business Daily (although various sources cite slight variations to these depending on the year of study, the trend is clear and consistent)

In the US, 93% of those diagnosed with diabetes receive their first treatment within six months. In Canada, only 43% do. And in England, only 15% do.

In the US, 77% of patients waiting to see a medical specialist are seen by one within four weeks. In Canada, 43% are, and in England 40% needing a medical specialist seen by one within four weeks.

In the US, there are 71 MRI/CT machines per million people. In Canada there are 18 per million. And in England, there are 14 per million.

In the US, the 5-year survival rate for leukemia is about 50%. In Europe, it is 35%.

In the US, the survival rate for prostate cancer is 81%. In France, it is 62%. And in England, it's 44%.



Im sure your not arguing to the center of the issue because your failing to describe how any of this should effect governing and policy decisions. you do bring up some interesting points about what would cause personal fear of such a system. Remember, people are only units of statistical measurement in America. Read that last sentence again.

I think whoever did those surveys needs to get their priorities straight, and execute a study that considers confounding variables if they wish to analyse such a serious issue! Consider what the results would be if you cross tabulated those results with subsections of the population in each country mentioned. (if i had an hour i would produce the data equivalents, but for now you will only get my hypothesis...) 

First off i would cross tabulate a statistical relationship to ethnic discrimination by comparing how many minority citizens received treatment within 6 months when diagnosed with diabetes, or survived prostate cancer or saw a specialist. My hypothesis is that only the USA would have a disparity within minority populations (greater than %10.)

The next thing that bothers me about this is the prostate cancer survival rate. I would like to know what the parameters were for this. What defines a prostate cancer patient? once the cancer takes over it spreads to other organs, the blood, or multiple places in the body. This means when the patient dies the cause of death becomes cancer of the ____. if diagnosed with prostate cancer before the spread, that patient would most likely be considered a "prostate cancer" respondent.

The problem with this is in the US people without regular exams (for whatever reason.. poor, laid off, no public requirement etc.)would not be diagnosed as "prostate cancer" patients. They would die with cancer all over their body and this would be considered a different ailment, therefore only some of those that were not diagnosed with "prostate cancer" would actually die from cancer in the prostate alone excluding them from the results. The fact is a random patient is vastly more likely to be diagnosed and documented in countries such as england or canada, making the survival rate more similar than this statistic want to acknowledge. 

This could be quantified by statistically proving, by country, prostate cancer survival rate among patients that received regular check ups and comparing that data to the previous survey's results; with the rule that if prostate cancer is diagnosed alone before other cancer positives, the respondent will be included. My hypothesis is that survival rate depends on early diagnosis, thus those not diagnosed before death should be considered spurious to statistical conclusions.

I know many people take "statistical evidence" such as u present for face value, and many of you will have gotten bored or confused and not read my post. All i have to say is read between the line when you attempt to analyze a presentation ment to sway your political opinion. Especially when the case is being made by a blaitantly republican biased publication such as Investors Business Daily.



Regarding "ethnic discrimination" what they are trying to determine is quality of treatment. Not how who gets it.Two separate problems.


As prostate cancer assumption.It's just that. I mean i am not familiar in this at all. Show some proof.


Those numbers still show a trend for the US to have better treatmen. Once it's available to a person. Take the MRI/CT machine numbers that alone is telling

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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: buckwheat]
    #11059357 -

Quote:
Regarding "ethnic discrimination" what they are trying to determine is quality of treatment. Not how who gets it.Two separate problems.


As prostate cancer assumption.It's just that. I mean i am not familiar in this at all. Show some proof.


Those numbers still show a trend for the US to have better treatmen. Once it's available to a person. Take the MRI/CT machine numbers that alone is telling




These are narrow examples of quality of treatment the world health organization has quantified more general indicators such as average lifespan by country. Americans live several years less than the countries mentioned ^. These general indicators determine the quality of a nations healthcare that determine their over all rankings. The US is 30+ in the world, 20+ when you pull out small nations and countries that arnt similar to the 1st world applications we're discussing. If care is better here why are we behind Australia, France England, Canada etc...

At least currently im better off here if i need mri's or prostate treatment. That still leaves quite a bit open tho.


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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: rodfarva]
    #11059438 -

rodfarva said:
Quote:
Regarding "ethnic discrimination" what they are trying to determine is quality of treatment. Not how who gets it.Two separate problems.


As prostate cancer assumption.It's just that. I mean i am not familiar in this at all. Show some proof.


Those numbers still show a trend for the US to have better treatmen. Once it's available to a person. Take the MRI/CT machine numbers that alone is telling




These are narrow examples of quality of treatment the world health organization has quantified more general indicators such as average lifespan by country. Americans live several years less than the countries mentioned ^. These general indicators determine the quality of a nations healthcare that determine their over all rankings. The US is 30+ in the world, 20+ when you pull out small nations and countries that arnt similar to the 1st world applications we're discussing. If care is better here why are we behind Australia, France England, Canada etc...

At least currently im better off here if i need mri's or prostate treatment. That still leaves quite a bit open tho.


Average lifespan means nothing when you include our high homicide rate and our tendency to live unhealthier lives.

Ive seen those  criteria for Health care and personally think they are a joke but apparently people have different priorities about health care. I wish there was a way we can keep that competitiveness in medical treatment and provide universal health care. This bill in congress certainly isnt it.On the surface a voucher/coupon idea seems good but i haven't given it much time.

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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: rodfarva]
    #11060056 -

rodfarva said:
Im not calling you a sheep, it's a valid perspective that all televised/print media is flawed once commercialiced.
Just like theres a flaw in contracting private soldiers and healthcare.


and it's government that's contracting those private soldiers and now attempting with health care

Quote:
This thread isn't the debate on health care that will conclude the argument.


you're right, and it's not about anything more than who's afraid of the
big bad wolf, well, it seems that most americans arent afraid of it,
they just know better that to want it passed because they know the
repercussions of only getting 55% of their gross income as opposed to
80% and then having to still make the bills

Quote:
I follow your reasoning and am still not compelled to a different thought direction. :shrug:


well the first issue is you're making assumptions as opposed to doing the research

Quote:
keep it going tho. We have a pretty good serious conversation here. I would like to hear more from the international posters. (NON-US)


as do I, even with many of the countries like canada and australia the
reviews regarding their health care are mixed, since we arent living
there we cant truly judge because we only get what we're fed by media
sources or in many cases hearsay which tends to be fictitious

Quote:
The other place i found most interesting to talk about this topic is a graduate class on racism im in.
This issue's reflection seems to collide with the war on drugs in terms of its effect on minorities in the US.
If it can be done well, and in the event there is a solution enacted that most Americans are happy about, it would be a large step toward racial equality in this country.




my views on that topic are pretty interesting as well, immediately the
class strikes me as  racism in it's self by showing that (my assumption)
that many of the drug laws are geared towards locking up 'minorities'
yet social programs are geared towards aiding these 'minorities',
hinestly... using terms like minority to refer to people with a
different color or ethnic background is racism in it's self, but really,
shouldnt this be subject for another thread


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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: buckwheat]
    #11060084 -

buckwheat said:
Average lifespan means nothing when you include our high homicide rate and our tendency to live unhealthier lives.


it means nothing when you also consider that most men went to war 150+
years ago, men being kids as young as 14, it wasnt until after viet nam
that the US really started cracking down on it, one of my uncles enlisted
at 15, his mother signed the papers for him


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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #11060101 -

Prisoner#1 said:
I guess the concept of 'when government gets involved it fucks it all
up' eludes you


I love how you say that as if it's some scientific law, when it's actually just ideological bullshit.


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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: Silversoul]
    #11060237 -

about the illegals... we already pay for their healthcare, it's called the hippocratic oath. by law, hospitals cannot turn down a patient who has a medical emergency. it either gets subsidized by the state or the hospital. and they don't pay a dime.

i got some other points too but i'm kinda tired right now.

i'm totally a libertarian but from my limited knowledge of this issue i think a public option would be best to drive down cost by way of competition. i do however disagree that it should be mandated and would rather it be a choice like the postal system.

all the comments i've heard from socialised healthcare users seem to like their system, and wouldn't in hell trade it for ours. it seems like their main problem is the lack of doctors, and even still i don't think that's an issue of pay, more of training. perhaps if they incentivized those particular careers they'd have shorter wait times.


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Everybody's a ninja...

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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: SleepyF0x]
    #11061088 -

As doctors in the states spend nearly twice the time in school compared to the UK (because in the US they also have to do a bachelors), their debts are higher and they start practicing when they are older, giving them less time to cover their debts.

At the same time, we wonder why there is a shortage of GPs, who earn the least, and take much longer to cover their debts.

Instead of subsidizing GPs, perhaps medical school should be a year longer but not require a bachelors to begin with so their debt is lower, doctors graduate sooner, gain more experience, and have more time to specialize if they choose.

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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #11061320 -

Quote:
well the first issue is you're making assumptions as opposed to doing the research


You would be surprised. Besides trying to show you what i know, or come up with some compelling solution to a problem no one else seems to be able to fix, why don't you attack the assumptions that i make in regard to the argument. Your making me into a straw man here. I have excellent insurance and would most certainly loose quite a bit of attention from my Dr. if this obama plan goes into affect!

Im not arguing for Obama and whatever his mysterious plan is, but i can state without a doubt i am against the cost of treatment for the uninsured, and the resulting lack of care in this country. People fear universal healthcare, and theres some compelling reasons to. My empathy for those who cant get proper medical attention offends my honor, and i accept the chance i may suffer to help my neighbor.

Your arguing a fallacy throughout this entire thread; The nirvana fallacy.
You say its not a good alternative because it isn't perfect. My points are not wrong because i dont know what exatcly we should do other than provide the medical coverage for any American who needs it. Thats what im arguing essentially, and i can't say im happy about any of the personal side effects this will have.

Your reacting heavily to the sad state of affairs, and im with you more than you think. It's not exactly fair that my "pay in" private coverage is disgustingly inflated by people trying to kill themselves with Mcdonalds, stress, and lack of exorcise.  I hate the idea of adding to the size of government, but damn if it's fair practice when people run huge insurance bills for dentist visits when they could have spent %1 of that just getting regular cleanings.

In Canada your required to get your teeth cleaned twice a year or you face fees or loss of benefits. It lowers cost, and it's smart. The bad side is it infringes on personal freedom.

Our Democracy will make those choices for us in the coming months, I hope they change things for the better. The issue needs to be addressed now.


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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: Silversoul]
    #11061410 -

Silversoul said:
Prisoner#1 said:
I guess the concept of 'when government gets involved it fucks it all
up' eludes you


I love how you say that as if it's some scientific law, when it's actually just ideological bullshit.


well please explain why we need this new healthcare plan as opposed to
fixing what's there, hasnt government fucked it up, the people arent
writing these bills, the elected officials are, what's government done
with this economy that makes it so wonderful right now, what about the
military, welfare, immigration, drug law reform... seems to me politics
is actually some ideological bullshit


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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: rodfarva]
    #11061483 -

rodfarva said:
In Canada your required to get your teeth cleaned twice a year or you face fees or loss of benefits. It lowers cost, and it's smart. The bad side is it infringes on personal freedom.


I think that we need some kind of system like that.
Require people to see an MD/dentist twice a year for a check up
Dr's can give advice on lifestyle changes.

I also believe that there should be a minimum PT test
walk at a 3mph pace for ~20 min and then check basic body functions
You have to show an improvement in your ability to exercise each visit
until you reach the ability to walk for ~20 minutes and not be negatively affected

The U.S. needs to re-think how we keep healthy.
Eating shitty foods and not exercising causes more disease than smoking

Just by maintaining a basic level of fitness we will
reduce the cases of high blood pressure and diabetes

the way the system is set up now, the medical field profits from disease
the insurance companies and the big pharms do not want a healthy public

If everyone started eating right and exercising
many companies would loose money

that is why government has to step in
and regulate the medical field
and take the profit out of the equation


--------------------
Live for the moment you are in now
Don't be bogged down by your past
Don't be afraid of what lies in your future

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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: niteowl]
    #11061533 -

Quote:
that is why government has to step in
and regulate the medical field
and take the profit out of the equation


... Im just worried about them becoming the pleasure police. They already tell us what substances we can't put in our bodies, what could be next? outlawing steak? I wouldn't put it past them. Complex problems need careful answers.


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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: rodfarva]
    #11061602 -

rodfarva said:
People fear universal healthcare


that's the assumption... you say it's fear as opposed to disdain


Quote:
My empathy for those who cant get proper medical attention offends my honor, and i accept the chance i may suffer to help my neighbor.


another fallacy, it's there, they have to go and seek the medical
attention, they cant expect the hospitals  to come to them and guess
what, you're already suffering so that they can get the care they choose
not to pursue

Quote:
Your arguing a fallacy throughout this entire thread; The nirvana fallacy.
You say its not a good alternative because it isn't perfect. My points are not wrong because i dont know what exatcly we should do other than provide the medical coverage for any American who needs it. Thats what im arguing essentially, and i can't say im happy about any of the personal side effects this will have.


it's nothing about being perfect, it's about passing redundant
legislation to establish nothing more than what's already there only
with a broader scope and more regulation, something that may cost a
hundred thousand more jobs by putting a lot of private insurance
carriers out of business. some of what I'm seeing in this bill is also
heavily imposes on private enterprise

all the while we already have all of this without more regulation on
private industry to force them to take bad debt, the same thing that got
us into the housing crisis




Quote:
In Canada your required to get your teeth cleaned twice a year or you face fees or loss of benefits. It lowers cost, and it's smart. The bad side is it infringes on personal freedom.


and lets not forget how it can also create financial hardships, the loss
of coverage and the fees and still paying those taxes to cover it, I
believe you mentioned fairness... is there any fairness in the way
government handles business

Quote:
Our Democracy will make those choices for us in the coming months,



our 'leaders' will make those decisions, if our democracy were making
them then it would be on the ballot for the people to decide, it wouldnt
be government going against the will of the people as they've done so
often, remember the patriot act, do you think that vote was really
representative of the people, how about all these 'stimulus' bills, all
the polls I'd seen showed far less support from the people than it did
from congress

what is government so afraid of that so many issue will never see the ballots


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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #11061641 -

I don't care what they do. I just want my medications and I'll take them with a weapon if it's not given to me when I am too poor to buy it. At least there is healthcare in prison.

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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #11061649 -

Quote:
and lets not forget how it can also create financial hardships, the loss
of coverage and the fees and still paying those taxes to cover it, I
believe you mentioned fairness... is there any fairness in the way
government handles business


In Michigan, you are required to carry no fault auto insurance if you own a car.  What if the government mandated everyone must buy a minimum health insurance? It would only be fair to the people that pay taxes that go to medicare. Right??????????//

Your right, the implications of this are HUGE. Prepare for them.
History says bush got off clean, but the democrats were able to take over. WE are going to see a shit storm of policies that change quite a bit. Do you see anyway something positive could happen from Obama healthcare.. or what im guessing will be the Ted Kennedy universal coverage bill?

BTW that black bush nonsense is suffocating. If :obama: was black bush this thread wouldn't exists.


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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #11061651 -

Prisoner#1 said:
well please explain why we need this new healthcare plan as opposed to
fixing what's there


What do you mean "fixing what's there"?  THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT THIS PLAN DOES!

Quote:
hasnt government fucked it up


Government has fucked up when it's delegated its responsibilities to the private sector, such as with Medicare Advantage.

Quote:
the people arent writing these bills, the elected officials are


Uh...yeah.  That's called representative democracy.  I wouldn't trust someone like you to write my shopping list, let alone a bill.  That's why we have representatives with legal and economic advisors to help them write a bill.

Quote:
what's government done with this economy that makes it so wonderful right now


They stopped the bleeding with the stimulus package.  The cash for clunkers program was a huge success.  And given the superb track record of universal healthcare in other countries, we can expect that such a program here would help our economy as well.

Quote:
what about the military, welfare, immigration, drug law reform...


The military is a necessary function of government that has unfortunately been coopted by private special interests to further their agendas overseas.  Welfare programs like social security have been a great blessing for the average American, to the extent that it's become a "third rail" of politics.  The only welfare most people complain about is welfare for other people, due to a lack of compassion, and a mistaken belief that a large portion of their taxes go to it.  Immigration is a small problem that conservative blowhards make out to be a huge problem because they need a scapegoat.  Drug law reform is happening slowly but surely around the world and in several states.  I predict that by 2020, pot will be legal in most US states, if not nationally.

Quote:
seems to me politics is actually some ideological bullshit


And yet the opinions you spout here are explicitly political.  Is this your way of admitting that you're spouting ideological bullshit?


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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: rodfarva]
    #11061657 -

rodfarva said:
Quote:
that is why government has to step in
and regulate the medical field
and take the profit out of the equation


... Im just worried about them becoming the pleasure police. They already tell us what substances we can't put in our bodies, what could be next? outlawing steak? I wouldn't put it past them. Complex problems need careful answers.


I don't think that will become an issue
many people drink alcohol on occasion and remain healthy

look at Phelps

all that is needed is a base line measurement for overall health
walking at a brisk pace for 20 min is a good indicator of overall health
some people will have to work harder to attain the ability to do it
but even the heaviest smoker could get himself into good enough shape to do it

this plan would greatly improve the overall health of Americans
reducing the cost of health care and taking away from the profits of big pharms

this is one of the reasons I'm afraid that nothing like this will even be discussed


--------------------
Live for the moment you are in now
Don't be bogged down by your past
Don't be afraid of what lies in your future

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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: niteowl]
    #11061671 -

niteowl said:
also believe that there should be a minimum PT test
walk at a 3mph pace for ~20 min and then check basic body functions
You have to show an improvement in your ability to exercise each visit
until you reach the ability to walk for ~20 minutes and not be negatively affected


so now you're advocating that we remove the profits and now make good
health a law, what happens of someone cant pass the PT training, are
they exiled, executed, imprisoned or heavily fined until you're capable
of passing the tests, well comrade stalin, how will we achieve that, how
will the single mothers of 5 manage to get a day off work to take the
battery of tests and still be able to feed her kids and pay her rent, we
can make it mandatory that employers pay an off day for it, yeah, punish
those that provide the jobs and cut deeper into their pockets


I know, lets legislate all the restaurants right out of business unless
they're salad/vegan only but then what shall we do about the people that
dont eat out but still put on the weight, should we outlaw home cooking
without government monitors checking all we buy and cook, maybe outlaw
the foods in the stores so all they can carry is a few veggies


Quote:
the way the system is set up now, the medical field profits from disease
the insurance companies and the big pharms do not want a healthy public



just like the government that's in big pharmas pocket

Quote:
If everyone started eating right and exercising
many companies would loose money

that is why government has to step in
and regulate the medical field
and take the profit out of the equation



well, surely you can outline the plan better than I just did as to how
this would take place, maybe you can explain how we can remove the
incentives and still keep a viable system... so far you've spouted anti
profit rhetoric without suggestion on how it could actually work


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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: Silversoul]
    #11061674 -

Quote:
Uh...yeah.  That's called representative democracy.  I wouldn't trust someone like you to write my shopping list, let alone a bill.  That's why we have representatives with legal and economic advisors to help them write a bill.


This is a commonly mistaken belief. Representatives hardly ever write bills, they debate them and sign or table them, but lobbyists and interest groups and their lawyers write the bill. Frequently, the representitive never even reads a bill they vote on (many times their advisors don't read it either.) It's a sham :crankey:


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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: Silversoul]
    #11061754 -

Silversoul said:
Prisoner#1 said:
well please explain why we need this new healthcare plan as opposed to
fixing what's there


What do you mean "fixing what's there"?  THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT THIS PLAN DOES!


no, it actually doesnt, wheres the repeal of the asset seizures, post
mortem, why does it demand pre existing condition coverage, seems to me
it just fucks up more and drives more businesses down the tubes

feel free to show me how it fixes the problems, how it keeps the charity hospitals open

Quote:
Quote:
hasnt government fucked it up


Government has fucked up when it's delegated its responsibilities to the private sector, such as with Medicare Advantage.




or when they established medicare

Quote:
Quote:
the people arent writing these bills, the elected officials are


Uh...yeah.  That's called representative democracy.  I wouldn't trust someone like you to write my shopping list, let alone a bill.  That's why we have representatives with legal and economic advisors to help them write a bill.



well I can understand the shopping list, who knows how long you'd
survive on a diet of beer and cheetos, the problem is that the
representatives dont represent the people anymore


Quote:
Quote:
what's government done with this economy that makes it so wonderful right now


They stopped the bleeding with the stimulus package.  The cash for clunkers program was a huge success.  And given the superb track record of universal healthcare in other countries, we can expect that such a program here would help our economy as well.



bullshit... they ran out of cash wht cash for clunkers... and the US isnt other countries

Quote:
The military is a necessary function of government that has unfortunately been coopted by private special interests to further their agendas overseas.


like many other aspects of government, it's all about special interests, jut ask the enlightened one

Quote:
Welfare programs like social security have been a great blessing for the average American, to the extent that it's become a "third rail" of politics.


yep... granny can go grocery shopping and buy some cat food, too bad she doesnt like cats


Quote:
Immigration is a small problem that conservative blowhards make out to be a huge problem because they need a scapegoat.


it's funny how we have as many illegal aliens as we;ve lost jobs in the US over the last few years... I wonder if that's a coincidence

 
Quote:
Drug law reform is happening slowly but surely around the world and in several states.  I predict that by 2020, pot will be legal in most US states, if not nationally.



so now you're a psychic... how about we get the people involved and get it on the ballot instead of allowing your predictions and opinions dictate what will and will not happen

Quote:
Quote:
seems to me politics is actually some ideological bullshit


And yet the opinions you spout here are explicitly political.  Is this your way of admitting that you're spouting ideological bullshit?


is it any different than any of the other ideological bullshit and
metaphysical juju that you're spewing?


--------------------
California Has Legalized Child Prostitution

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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #11061812 -

Prisoner#1 said:
no, it actually doesnt, wheres the repeal of the asset seizures post mortem


I'm quite sure I don't know what you're talking about, but such a bill needn't solve every problem to make enormous progress

Quote:
why does it demand pre existing condition coverage


Because that's the sensible and moral thing to do.

Quote:
feel free to show me how it fixes the problems


A strong public option would provide competition to keep costs down.  Requiring coverage for pre-existing conditions would make healthcare accessible to many people who can't currently get coverage.  It would also prevent insurance companies from dropping people when they get sick.  This is not only a moral imperative, but also makes the system more efficient, and would reduce administrative costs.

Quote:
how it keeps the charity hospitals open


What reason do you have for believing it wouldn't, other than your less than casual relationship with the facts?

Quote:
or when they established medicare


That's not the way the vast majority of seniors see it.

Quote:
bullshit... they ran out of cash wht cash for clunkers... and the US isnt other countries


Cash for clunkers was intended to be a short-term stimulus program.  It succeeded in its objective beyond even the most optimistic projections.  And there's no reason that universal healthcare couldn't work in the US any less than it does in other developed countries, other than insurance companies trying to block legislation, and the stupid rednecks who defend them.

Quote:
like many other aspects of government, it's all about special interests, jut ask the enlightened one


Sometimes the special interests also try to block the government from fixing things, as is the case in this healthcare debate.

Quote:
it's funny how we have as many illegal aliens as we;ve lost jobs in the US over the last few years... I wonder if that's a coincidence


Hmm...might have to do with the loss of our manufacturing sector to China.  Nah...let's just blame a bunch of illiterate Mexicans.  It couldn't be our neoliberal trade policies...

Quote:
so now you're a psychic... how about we get the people involved and get it on the ballot instead of allowing your predictions and opinions dictate what will and will not happen


My predictions are based on trends in public opinion.  And there are already people trying to get pot legalization on the ballot.  They've been trying for years.  And no, I'm not psychic.  I just think.  You should try it sometime.

Quote:
is it any different than any of the other ideological bullshit and metaphysical juju that you're spewing?


Yes.  First of all, I use proper grammar.  Second of all, I don't just make shit up.


--------------------

Edited by Silversoul (09/15/09 12:29 AM)

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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: Silversoul]
    #11061871 -

Silversoul said:
Prisoner#1 said:
no, it actually doesnt, wheres the repeal of the asset seizures post mortem


I'm quite sure I don't know what you're talking about, but such a bill needn't solve every problem to make enormous progress


I see... so it's just rhetoric, Jim Carey style

Quote:
"why does it demand pre existing condition coverage"
Because that's the sensible and moral thing to do.


except there goes health care because the insurance industry cant be
sustained that way, we'll all be on medicaid with this lovely piece of
legislation because no one will have jobs

Quote:
"feel free to show me how it fixes the problems"
A strong public option would provide competition to keep costs down.  Requiring coverage for pre-existing conditions would make healthcare accessible to many people who can't currently get coverage.  It would also prevent insurance companies from dropping people when they get sick.  This is not only a moral imperative, but also makes the system more efficient, and would reduce administrative costs.


a strong public option? well, dont we already have an option for the
disadvantaged, under covered and indigent? the same people also treat
pre existing conditions

Quote:
"how it keeps the charity hospitals open"
What reason do you have for believing it wouldn't, other than your less than casual relationship with the facts?


my less than casual relationship shows that these hospitals are closing
all over, even n a strong economy they werent sustainible, many were
millions in debt before the downward slide, now government funding cant
keep them open any longer... it speaks volumes for how well the new
plan will work



Quote:
Cash for clunkers was intended to be a short-term stimulus program.


one that needed to be bailed out, it's sad when the bailouts need bailouts

Quote:
And there's no reason that universal healthcare couldn't work in the US any less than it does in other developed countries, other than insurance companies trying to block legislation, and the stupid rednecks who defend them.


except that they system they have now isnt working, it allows for free
health care for those that cant afford it, I wonder why that system is
going broke... oh yeah... immigration reform, that's where people take
from the penny jug and never put back, then when we go to cash in the
pennies we wonder what happened

enjoy the flaming ban

Quote:
like many other aspects of government, it's all about special interests, jut ask the enlightened one


Sometimes the special interests also try to block the government from fixing things, as is the case in this healthcare debate.


som special interests try and introduce things, often times things are
bad, when it comes to government... things can be typically really bad

Quote:
it's funny how we have as many illegal aliens as we;ve lost jobs in the US over the last few years... I wonder if that's a coincidence


Hmm...might have to do with the loss of our manufacturing sector to China.  Nah...let's just blame a bunch of illiterate Mexicans.  It couldn't be our neoliberal trade policies...


well, we dong have a free trade agreement with china do we? more and
more mexican products like ford, dodge, general motors, then the porous
borders and lax enforcement in immigration laws, the dozens of amnesties
allowing illegals to become citizens without submitting to the system
like millions of naturalized americans have


Quote:
so now you're a psychic... how about we get the people involved and get it on the ballot instead of allowing your predictions and opinions dictate what will and will not happen


My predictions are based on trends in public opinion.  And there are already people trying to get pot legalization on the ballot.  They've been trying for years.  And no, I'm not psychic.  I just think.  You should try it sometime.


yep... lots of predictions have been made over the years, drugs surely would have been legalized by now had public opinion and trends played any part in it

Quote:
is it any different than any of the other ideological bullshit and metaphysical juju that you're spewing?


Yes.  First of all, I use proper grammar.  Second of all, I don't just make shit up the way that you do.



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California Has Legalized Child Prostitution

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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: Silversoul]
    #11061909 -

as far as legalizing goes, thats not gunna happen for a long....long long time.  we get to jump around and get media coverage because people are finally bored with the crap on the news, other than that not much is happening besides a bit of decriminalization or aka medical weed....and while your looking over their....

they go ninja on you and ban certain kinds of cigs and put sin taxes ect ect.  its not getting better, its getting worse.  you really think its gunna be legal by 2020?  there's a better chance of their being drug detectors in all of our cars by then forcing everyone to quit or having their car locked out.  seriously just think how much our "healthcare" would save if all cars had those:shocked:  and then of course we could always tack on a little fine for failing ontop of it:yesnod:

what do you thinks gunna happen to medical MJ when this healthcare plan goes through....my guess,  POOF  :onfire:


--------------------
We were sent to hell for eternity :hellfire: Ø:omgawesome:h®
We play on earth to pass the time :foreheadslap:

Over-population the root of all Evil-brings the Elites Closer to the gates.

Edited by makaveli8x8 (09/15/09 01:23 AM)

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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #11062037 -

Prisoner#1 said:
except there goes health care because the insurance industry cant be
sustained that way, we'll all be on medicaid with this lovely piece of
legislation because no one will have jobs


Bullshit.  Germany and Switzerland have non-single-payer universal healthcare systems which cover people with pre-existing conditions.  There's a lot the insurance companies can afford to do that they're not currently doing.

Quote:
a strong public option? well, dont we already have an option for the
disadvantaged, under covered and indigent? the same people also treat
pre existing conditions


I find it curious that of all the people arguing against healthcare reform, you're the only one who argues that we already have a public option.  Probably because an incredibly stupid and intellectually dishonest argument.  Medicare and Medicaid are not available for significant segments of the population.  They do not provide any competition for the insurance industry, and thus do not keep down costs, as a public option would.

Quote:
my less than casual relationship shows that these hospitals are closing
all over, even n a strong economy they werent sustainible, many were
millions in debt before the downward slide, now government funding cant
keep them open any longer... it speaks volumes for how well the new
plan will work


It only speaks volumes about your intellectual dishonesty.  The healthcare plan being discussed has nothing to do with charity hospitals.  It's about universal coverage.  There are no plans on the table for a government takeover of hospitals.

Quote:
except that they system they have now isnt working, it allows for free
health care for those that cant afford it, I wonder why that system is
going broke... oh yeah... immigration reform, that's where people take
from the penny jug and never put back, then when we go to cash in the
pennies we wonder what happened


That mess of words doesn't make any sense at all.

Quote:
enjoy the flaming ban


What, for flaming the teabaggers?

Quote:
som special interests try and introduce things, often times things are
bad, when it comes to government... things can be typically really bad


There is some corruption in the government, sure.  But all in all, our government could be a lot worse.

Quote:
well, we dong have a free trade agreement with china do we? more and
more mexican products like ford, dodge, general motors, then the porous
borders and lax enforcement in immigration laws, the dozens of amnesties
allowing illegals to become citizens without submitting to the system
like millions of naturalized americans have


NAFTA was a bad idea, sure.  But the problem is more about the factories going there rather than the immigrants coming here.


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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: Silversoul]
    #11062212 -

Doesn't the government already control enough of are lives? Health care, Gun laws, Drug laws? It all control? Do we really want to give are government more control? When do we draw the line? How much is to much?

"If we restrict liberty to attain security we will lose them both."
            -Benjamin Franklin


--------------------
Thank you but im well aware that my spelling and grammar sucks! I apologize for that fact now please :finger:  GET THE FUCK OVER IT!  :finger:
Thank you.
~David~

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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: chamberlaindavidd]
    #11062222 -

chamberlaindavidd said:
Doesn't the government already control enough of are lives? Health care, Gun laws, Drug laws? It all control? Do we really want to give are government more control? When do we draw the line? How much is to much?

"If we restrict liberty to attain security we will lose them both."
            -Benjamin Franklin



You fail to link how universal coverage = government control. Which countries with universal coverage have people that feel like their under government control?


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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: rodfarva]
    #11062233 -

Universal coverage = Government Controlled Health Care = Government Control?


--------------------
Thank you but im well aware that my spelling and grammar sucks! I apologize for that fact now please :finger:  GET THE FUCK OVER IT!  :finger:
Thank you.
~David~

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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: rodfarva]
    #11062238 -

Universal coverage = Government controlled health care = Government control?


--------------------
Thank you but im well aware that my spelling and grammar sucks! I apologize for that fact now please :finger:  GET THE FUCK OVER IT!  :finger:
Thank you.
~David~

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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: chamberlaindavidd]
    #11062247 -

chamberlaindavidd said:
Universal coverage = Government controlled health care = Government control?


Really? SO medicare must be a form of government control then also?


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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: rodfarva]
    #11062273 -

In black and white, yes. Now if only the world were black and white.
The problem stems from the level of control. There is a rather large and obvious difference between the level of control medicare allows and that which your universal coverage would allow.


--------------------
Thank you but im well aware that my spelling and grammar sucks! I apologize for that fact now please :finger:  GET THE FUCK OVER IT!  :finger:
Thank you.
~David~

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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: Silversoul]
    #11062515 -

Silversoul said:
Germany and Switzerland have non-single-payer universal healthcare systems which cover people with pre-existing conditions.  There's a lot the insurance companies can afford to do that they're not currently doing.


as I recall america isnt germeany or switzerland and since neither of us
live there you may want to cite your source that shows this info and
maybe demonstrate that their healthcare system is what Obama is trying
to deliver, of course then I'll be more than happy to rebut the claims

Quote:
I find it curious that of all the people arguing against healthcare reform, you're the only one who argues that we already have a public option.  Probably because an incredibly stupid and intellectually dishonest argument.  Medicare and Medicaid are not available for significant segments of the population.  They do not provide any competition for the insurance industry, and thus do not keep down costs, as a public option would.


that's so cute... first you try to push the idea that I'm the only one
talking about it and then you tell me I'm being dishonest, a few days
ago you just flat out called me a lair regarding medicare/medicaid

I'll be kind enough to introduce you to a small portion of americas
public health system, first, lets meet Grady Hospital, take note of
the heading 'vision' and then do a little reading for yourself
http://www.gradyhealthsystem.org/About/

Another Wonderful hospital, like grady, that has one of the best trauma
units in the nation is Erlanger, it's also part of the public hospital
system and to make niteowl happy, it's listed as a non-profit
http://www.erlanger.org/body.cfm?id=38

need more? you should find them all right here but you might have to read
http://www.naph.org/Main-Menu-Category/About-NAPH/About-Our-Members/Our-Members.aspx

so what's wrong, why do we need this 'public option' when we already
have the public options in place, thousands of them around the country

Quote:
Quote:
my less than casual relationship shows that these hospitals are closing
all over, even n a strong economy they werent sustainible, many were
millions in debt before the downward slide, now government funding cant
keep them open any longer... it speaks volumes for how well the new
plan will work


It only speaks volumes about your intellectual dishonesty.  The healthcare plan being discussed has nothing to do with charity hospitals.  It's about universal coverage.  There are no plans on the table for a government takeover of hospitals.



so wait... we already have free care as I've just shown yet we now need
to pay more in taxes to establish a new system that's supposed to cover
the people that this healthcare is already afforded to free of charge
from already established systems and hispitals and you're calling ME
dishonest? sounds like the messiah is the one not being honest and you'd
like to remain in denial
Quote:
Quote:
except that they system they have now isnt working, it allows for free
health care for those that cant afford it, I wonder why that system is
going broke... oh yeah... immigration reform, that's where people take
from the penny jug and never put back, then when we go to cash in the
pennies we wonder what happened


That mess of words doesn't make any sense at all.


seems intelligent people can figure it out

Quote:
Quote:
enjoy the flaming ban


What, for flaming the teabaggers?


wasnt your comment about only stupid rednecks being in opposition. seems
you've called me a stupid redneck yet you're the rich kid that is
unaware of the already existing options, seems the 'stupid rednecks' are
more knowledgeable that the wealthy college kids


Quote:
Quote:
well, we dong have a free trade agreement with china do we? more and
more mexican products like ford, dodge, general motors, then the porous
borders and lax enforcement in immigration laws, the dozens of amnesties
allowing illegals to become citizens without submitting to the system
like millions of naturalized americans have


NAFTA was a bad idea, sure.  But the problem is more about the factories going there rather than the immigrants coming here.



really? if one million jobs move to mexico that's a loss of 1 million
jobs, if 20 million illegal aliens come to the US looking for work then
that's 20 million jobs lost to a cheap labor force, one that drives down
the wage for blue collar workers, but wait, surely not all 20 million
get work, only about 1/4 of them do... what are the other 15 million
doing for income, are they adding to the crime rate, are they sponging
off the system?

so lets see, we have 15million out of work illegals, 5 million working
illegals that arent contributing to the system, 3/4 of them drawing from
the system that they arent contributing to, making use of the existing
public health options that the citizens are contributing to and you
believe that the loss of a million jobs to mexico might be a bigger deal
than the loss of 5million+ jobs domestically, the driving down of wages
and the consumption of public resources

seems the 'intellectual dishonesty' falls on your lap


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California Has Legalized Child Prostitution

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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #11062675 -

pris, can you and whoever please stop responding in multi-quoted responses meant to look like a point by point debate? Neither you, me or anyone else is making a worthy attempt at persuasive, intellectual debate. We can argue generallities well and thats about it.


Do you really think the public options we have are suitable when roughly half of bankruptcy filings in the US are caused by medical bills (journal; Health affairs Feb 2005.)

People can work hard their whole life and never accept one dollar from a government handout, then have their financial livelihood ripped away due to illness (the only alternative being death.)

Is protecting the so called American dream not a compelling argument for expanding heath coverage to all? (or expanding government control if saying it that way makes you argue less??)


--------------------

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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: rodfarva]
    #11062806 -

The money to pay for the procedures has to come from somewhere...  If it does not come directly from the individual through their personal health insurance costs or out of pocket it could be paid by government...

Government pays for it through increased taxes and inflation of the money supply.

Inflation of the money supply hurts poor folk far worse than the rich.

The problem with government welfare programs is that the poor people it is "supposed to help" id est; grandma & grandpa living on a pension, find that their once halfway decent fixed income DOESN'T BUY SHIT ANYMORE because big government programs are paid for through the creation of new money which devalues their fixed income dramatically!

(Sorry about the run on sentence for all the "grammar nazis" out there....)


--------------------
Ludwig von Mises Institute,Campaign for Liberty.,The Oath Keeper's

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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: rodfarva]
    #11062944 -

rodfarva said:
pris, can you and whoever please stop responding in multi-quoted responses meant to look like a point by point debate? Neither you, me or anyone else is making a worthy attempt at persuasive, intellectual debate. We can argue generallities well and thats about it.


you must not be reading this thread then because it more than explains
numerous issues with the proposed system as well as what's currently in
place, just because you choose to ignore what's being said by either
side doesnt mean that no one is making a persuasive argument, the points
I've made about the current system as well as Al's points about the
economic impact are both valid and compelling

everyone that supports it wants to say "well the germans and canadians"
well, unlike the US the germans have a pretty streamlined parliamentary
process, they cut out a great deal of government waste, they dont load
their bills down with thousands of contradictory amendments, they value
simplicity. The US is just the opposite, our policy makers like to keep
the bills like the american people are portrayed, bloated and retarded


Quote:
Do you really think the public options we have are suitable when roughly half of bankruptcy filings in the US are caused by medical bills




it doesnt have to be that way and it doesnt have to be accomplished
through 'universal' health care, I've already shown that we have an
extensive public health care network in place that does a great deal
of work through charity but for some odd reason no one wants to see it
they all seem to want to see the obama plan, if I cant afford healthcare
I can hop my happy ass on public transport and hit the health clinic, if
it's more serious I can hit one of the 3 local hospitals, one of which
is public funded or I can hit one of a dozen public hospitals within 100
miles of me so why punish me and the rest of america just because 15%
are too stupid to figure it out


Quote:
People can work hard their whole life and never accept one dollar from a government handout, then have their financial livelihood ripped away due to illness (the only alternative being death.)

Is protecting the so called American dream not a compelling argument for expanding heath coverage to all? (or expanding government control if saying it that way makes you argue less??)



how would this universal healthcare be anything more than a means of
destroying the american dream, it's exactly what everyone is bitching
about with the rising costs of 'private' healthcare, it's taking more
money for the services that are already offered all over the country
at literally thousands of publicly funded hospitals so now instead of
robbing peter to give to paul, we rob peter and paul and give to ceaser

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_hospital#United_States


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California Has Legalized Child Prostitution

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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: niteowl]
    #11063029 -

niteowl said:
I believe that people should have to pass a P.T. test before they get insurance.

Your rates should be based on how well you maintain your body.

I'm not talking about going to the extreme like the military.

But everyone (15-55) should be able to walk ~2-3 miles in an hour.

If you can't get on a treadmill and do that simple task, then you should be charged more for coverage.

Exercise should be a requirement of everyone, starting in school.

I'm not talking about extreme levels of exercise. Just enough to keep you healthy enough to be able to walk a couple of miles in a certain time. Maybe have them keep their BMI index below a certain point. If you can't do these things then you have to pay higher premiums and co-pays.

This puts a lot of a persons level of health directly in their hands.

If you wanna be a fat fucking slob then your gonna have to pay the extra $$$ for that privilege.

For those people that make an effort to stay healthy, they get to pay the least for their premiums and co-pays

:2cents:


I haven't read past this post yet, but figured I'd start with this. This is a good idea, I like what you put forth here. For all the naysaying I do about compulsory anything, I'd love to see a discourse about how compulsory physical exercise would be bad.

Anyhow, as far as the selection above that I've chosen, I always have - and always will - have a problem with the BMI scale. Apparently, I'm 35.1% body fat and am "obese". Yes, I'm 5'10" and 245 pounds, but I'd like to have any competent physical trainer professionally tell me I consist of 1/3 fat. Heck, I'd like to see an average person call me fat.

The BMI is just as much a sham as the food pyramid is. I'm healthy. I exercise. I'm just built like a brick shit house; nothing I can do about it. Yeah, I could be in better shape, but there's no way I'm even half of that "trusted index" that doctors push.

I would hate to see that implemented into a system that judges health care for an individual. Call me "stocky", but good luck calling me "obese" or 35% body fat. When I was 200lbs my hair was falling out, my health was suffering, I was cold all the time, I was told by numerous people I should see a doctor if I have an eating disorder, told by doctors to start eating more and stop exercising or I'd kill myself.

Then, I've got my primary care physician running bloodwork for all this, telling me I need to lose 40 lbs because I'm obese, LOL.


Otherwise, nice post.

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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: Adden]
    #11063046 -

"I'd love to see a discourse about how compulsory physical exercise would be bad."






Starting at Minute 2:



--------------------
Ludwig von Mises Institute,Campaign for Liberty.,The Oath Keeper's

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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: Mr.Al]
    #11063067 -

Yeah, yeah. I've seen the film.

Nothing better than a fictional work...

People would never let it get that bad. No way. Not even the sheep.

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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: Adden]
    #11063072 -

Dystopia said:
niteowl said:
Exercise should be a requirement of everyone, starting in school.

I'm not talking about extreme levels of exercise. Just enough to keep you healthy enough to be able to walk a couple of miles in a certain time. Maybe have them keep their BMI index below a certain point. If you can't do these things then you have to pay higher premiums and co-pays.



I haven't read past this post yet, but figured I'd start with this. This is a good idea, I like what you put forth here. For all the naysaying I do about compulsory anything, I'd love to see a discourse about how compulsory physical exercise would be bad.


and we should legislate disease and death right out of existence :rolleyes:




Quote:
Otherwise, nice post.


ideology with no foundation or hops of making it to reality


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California Has Legalized Child Prostitution

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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #11063078 -

It's nice to dream that there's still hope. :shrug:

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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: Adden]
    #11063095 -

you're referring to the 1984 clip as a 'nice piece of fiction' while
advocating niteowls move to do just that and claiming no one would ever
let it get that far... so much contradiction in such a short time


--------------------
California Has Legalized Child Prostitution

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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #11063108 -

I was being flip. It's a major dodge to use a piece of fiction as a social discourse on compulsory physical training.

You think compulsory PT would ever get as far as it does in 1984? Really?

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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #11063129 -

oh come on.  you're being absurdly hyperbolic.  nite owl was simply talking about being able to walk for 20 minutes straight.  not a mandatory morning exercise regime.  rather than infraction based punishment, it could just as much be incentive based reward.  say, a little extra cash back while filing taxes for those able to show steady improvement or able to maintain the ideal.

i do think that we need to take steps towards prevention and making america healthier in general.  there's no reason for such a significant percentage of our populatin to be clinically obese and unable to perform basic physical tasks.


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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: Adden]
    #11063147 -

Dystopia said:
You think compulsory PT would ever get as far as it does in 1984? Really?



it seems to work in the school systems, not for those that
are too lazy and should also be legislated out of existence


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California Has Legalized Child Prostitution

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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: Adden]
    #11063173 -

The war on terror is a lot like the endless warfare in 1984.  State torture exists though the U.S. government.  1984 economics looks a lot like government bailout stuff...

The novel and movie "1984" is important in that it destroys any illusions people might have about "friendly big brother government".

Sure, it is not a photocopy of what we see today.  We would do well to remember the douchebags like Stalin, Hitler, Mao, & Pol Pot.

We have seen a disturbing increase in fascist behavior in the U.S. government in recent years. We should be paying attention to this.


--------------------
Ludwig von Mises Institute,Campaign for Liberty.,The Oath Keeper's

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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: tiny_rabid_birds]
    #11063187 -

tiny_rabid_birds said:
oh come on.  you're being absurdly hyperbolic.  nite owl was simply talking about being able to walk for 20 minutes straight.  not a mandatory morning exercise regime.


well shit, 95% or more of the US can do that, assuming they arent in
wheel chairs or 900 years old so it would appear that there's no need to
do anything more than execute those that cant perform up to the minimum
standard that way we can finally be the healthiest nation in america


 
Quote:
rather than infraction based punishment, it could just as much be incentive based reward.  say, a little extra cash back while filing taxes for those able to show steady improvement or able to maintain the ideal.



say you need a little cash and you can show any improvement because
you're already the fittest man in the world, then you're totally fucked
unless you can do back flips from the sears tower and land in los
angeles... but wait... wouldnt depriving the government of the extra
cash be putting all those people that are relying on your tax dollars at
risk of lesser medical care?

Quote:
i do think that we need to take steps towards prevention and making america healthier in general.  there's no reason for such a significant percentage of our populatin to be clinically obese and unable to perform basic physical tasks.


did you listen to the politicians, laws, police or anyone when they said
'dont do drugs'? over weight people never listened to the guys that said
'dont put that twinkie in your mouf' either, steps were taken but no one
is listening unless it's of interest to them, do you believe that
there's a method of accomplishing any of these goals, if so, I'd love to
hear it


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California Has Legalized Child Prostitution

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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #11063212 -

If a grossly overweight man receives free healthcare do we think that he will take better care of his health?

I surmise his thoughts might encompass something along the lines of: "Fuck it, where's dem little debbie snack cakes.  I can afford a heart attack.  I has 'free healthcare, yay!"


--------------------
Ludwig von Mises Institute,Campaign for Liberty.,The Oath Keeper's

Edited by Mr.Al (09/15/09 10:53 AM)

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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #11063230 -

haha.. 95%?  you're delirious.  you'd be surprised at how many people are unable to maintain a decent pace for a full 20 minutes.  it's quite sad.

and did you not read what i wrote?  a said a small reward based incentive for either showing steady improvement OR maintaining the ideal.  hence, the healthiest man in the world would indeed be receiving that small increase in tax return that he was depending so heavily on. 

a little bit of prevention goes a long way.  the aim being to reduce the frequency with which people need to receive treatment and prescriptions for extremely common yet preventable disorders like high blood pressure and diabetes, thus reducing the strain they would be causing on tax dollars in a system with public option.  so yes, it would be trading one strain for another, but like i said, a little prevention goes a long way.

and no, i don't blindly follow government orders, nor should anyone.  education is key here.  to educate people in conjunction with small incentives would hopefully give them enough of a reason to exercise.  i mean, regardless of what politicians tell us, we all know it's a good idea, and there are those who are simply too lazy to be bothered.  so maybe a little extra cash very easily earned could help to provide that inspiration.


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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: tiny_rabid_birds]
    #11063240 -

"extra cash"

Personally, I don't like government welfare.  I look at it as an insidious form of bribery so government can get away with shenanigans.  Their welfare always has strings attached to it.  That's why many states were refusing all kinds of "bailout cash", they didn't want more federal control usurping local government.


--------------------
Ludwig von Mises Institute,Campaign for Liberty.,The Oath Keeper's

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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: Mr.Al]
    #11063255 -

it's not welfare.  it's a subsidy on the taxes you're already paying.  more money added to your tax refund.

i feel this would be a pretty good idea to implement.  for those who don't want to participate, well they don't have to.  and they won't be receiving the benefits.  for those of us who don't mind getting out for a run every so often, or working out a bit to stay in shape, it's a bonus come refund time.


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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: tiny_rabid_birds]
    #11063272 -

Give them an inch and they will take a mile....

There's nothing wrong with healthcare companies charging less VOLUNTARILY for fit individuals health insurance...


I feel leery about government getting involved even indirectly with people's health...


--------------------
Ludwig von Mises Institute,Campaign for Liberty.,The Oath Keeper's

Edited by Mr.Al (09/15/09 11:13 AM)

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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: Mr.Al]
    #11063292 -

imo, private insurers simply cannot be trusted to have any aim other than profit.  they don't have people's health actually in best interest.  they make more wayyyyyyyyyyy more money off of your suffering than they would off of the prevention of said suffering.


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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: Mr.Al]
    #11063345 -

Mr.Al said:
If a grossly overweight man receives free healthcare do we think that he will take better care of his health?



if an alcoholic man gets a liver transplant does that address the root
issue as to why he's an alcoholic and destroyed his liver the first time


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California Has Legalized Child Prostitution

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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #11063375 -

tiny_rabid_birds said:
oh come on.  you're being absurdly hyperbolic.  nite owl was simply talking about being able to walk for 20 minutes straight.  not a mandatory morning exercise regime.  rather than infraction based punishment, it could just as much be incentive based reward.  say, a little extra cash back while filing taxes for those able to show steady improvement or able to maintain the ideal.

i do think that we need to take steps towards prevention and making america healthier in general.  there's no reason for such a significant percentage of our populatin to be clinically obese and unable to perform basic physical tasks.



What I was thinking was that your insurance rates could be based on how healthy you are.

Mr.Al said:
If a grossly overweight man receives free healthcare do we think that he will take better care of his health?


Only if there are stipulations associated with his insurance and level of fitness.

If fattie has to pay double what his skinny wife pays, he will have an incentive to get in shape.


--------------------
Live for the moment you are in now
Don't be bogged down by your past
Don't be afraid of what lies in your future

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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: tiny_rabid_birds]
    #11063389 -

tiny_rabid_birds said:
haha.. 95%?  you're delirious.  you'd be surprised at how many people are unable to maintain a decent pace for a full 20 minutes.  it's quite sad.


my claim is no more ridiculous than yours as neither have and
statistical foundation, anecdotal incidence I can show you a
500lb man that can walk 10 miles without dying

Quote:
and did you not read what i wrote?


did you read what I wrote, you're promoting something that would favor
those that previously did nothing over those that would prefer to work
hard to maintain good health, lets reward fat people for getting up and
walking to the fridge as opposed to making their kids fetch them food



Quote:
and no, i don't blindly follow government orders, nor should anyone.  education is key here.  to educate people in conjunction with small incentives would hopefully give them enough of a reason to exercise.



you mean they should do what they already do in schools, on TV and any
time an obese person visits the hospitals? isnt the potential of living
an extra 10 years enough incentive or would you like to promote more
redundancy in legislation and help the fat cats in office keep
justifying their continued existence, it's obvious this 'education'
thing hasnt worked previously, what's to ensure it works in the future,
would it be the cutoff of the healthcare they already arent getting?
wow, seems like a grand idea :crazy2:


Quote:
  i mean, regardless of what politicians tell us, we all know it's a good idea, and there are those who are simply too lazy to be bothered.  so maybe a little extra cash very easily earned could help to provide that inspiration.


regardless of what ANYONE tells us, a few of us BELIEVE it's a good idea
regardless of whether or not they've even looked at any of it while many
more of us BELIEVE it's a bad idea under the same circumstances


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California Has Legalized Child Prostitution

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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: niteowl]
    #11063397 -

niteowl said:
If fattie has to pay double what his skinny wife pays, he will have an incentive to get in shape.



so much for affordable health care for those that need it and welcome to
discrimination litigation costing billions more in tax payer dollars


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California Has Legalized Child Prostitution

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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: tiny_rabid_birds]
    #11063404 -

tiny_rabid_birds said:
imo, private insurers simply cannot be trusted to have any aim other than profit.



government agents cannot be trusted to have any other aim than to pad
their pockets with your money


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California Has Legalized Child Prostitution

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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #11063462 -

Prisoner#1 said:
you mean they should do what they already do in schools, on TV and any
time an obese person visits the hospitals? isnt the potential of living
an extra 10 years enough incentive or would you like to promote more
redundancy in legislation and help the fat cats in office keep
justifying their continued existence, it's obvious this 'education'
thing hasnt worked previously, what's to ensure it works in the future,
would it be the cutoff of the healthcare they already arent getting?
wow, seems like a grand idea :crazy2:


Quote:
  i mean, regardless of what politicians tell us, we all know it's a good idea, and there are those who are simply too lazy to be bothered.  so maybe a little extra cash very easily earned could help to provide that inspiration.



i love how you carefully insert the insult about the ineffectiveness of education right in front of my saying that we all know exercise is a good idea, yet people don't all do it, so maybe money can offer extra incentive. 

yes, i am fully aware that the importance is already taught to kids in health class.  yes, i am aware that people still choose not too.  that is why i specified a more immediate gain will help those with limited foresight.

i read what you said, and it still appears as though you did not read/understand my proposal.  there are two means by which you would receive the incentive.  a) if you're unable to perform the PT at an ideal level of performance, then you show steady marked improvement.  b) if you're already a healthy individual able to perform, then you show you are able to maintain that healthy baseline in subsequent visits.  so it doesn't matter if you're a fattie who's improving, or an already fit person exercising to maintain decent health.  both would be rewarded.


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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: tiny_rabid_birds]
    #11063607 -

tiny_rabid_birds said:
Prisoner#1 said:
you mean they should do what they already do in schools, on TV and any
time an obese person visits the hospitals? isnt the potential of living
an extra 10 years enough incentive or would you like to promote more
redundancy in legislation and help the fat cats in office keep
justifying their continued existence, it's obvious this 'education'
thing hasnt worked previously, what's to ensure it works in the future,
would it be the cutoff of the healthcare they already arent getting?
wow, seems like a grand idea :crazy2:


Quote:
  i mean, regardless of what politicians tell us, we all know it's a good idea, and there are those who are simply too lazy to be bothered.  so maybe a little extra cash very easily earned could help to provide that inspiration.



i love how you carefully insert the insult about the ineffectiveness of education right in front of my saying that we all know exercise is a good idea, yet people don't all do it, so maybe money can offer extra incentive. 



take it as you want but it wasnt intended to be an insult, unless of course you're the fatty we're talking about :smirk:

the point is, the people have been educated, now you want to bribe them,
I wonder what they'll spend the money on, more ding dongs and twinkies?
let their incentive be life or death, if they're dead guess what, we
dont have to pay for the health care that's wasted on them

Quote:
yes, i am fully aware that the importance is already taught to kids in health class.  yes, i am aware that people still choose not too.  that is why i specified a more immediate gain will help those with limited foresight.


superfluous recurrent repetitive redundancy

Quote:
i read what you said, and it still appears as though you did not read/understand my proposal.


I understand fully what you meant, to prove it, here's an example, my
kids are required to clean up their room, if they do so they can get $5
a week for doing what they should be doing anyway, if they dont do it
for a few years you're suggesting I should give them more to do what
they knew they were supposed to do anyway in order to get them to do
what they already knew they should be doing





Quote:
there are two means by which you would receive the incentive.  a) if you're unable to perform the PT at an ideal level of performance, then you show steady marked improvement.  b) if you're already a healthy individual able to perform, then you show you are able to maintain that healthy baseline in subsequent visits.  so it doesn't matter if you're a fattie who's improving, or an already fit person exercising to maintain decent health.  both would be rewarded.



oh, so it's reward the fatty for being a fatty that didnt piss in a
bottle this week and reward the hard worker for being a hard worker
sounds like it's the ultimate in sustainability


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California Has Legalized Child Prostitution

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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #11063776 -

no no, the fatty doesn't get more of a reward.  the incentive remains the same regardless of whether it's steady health or steady improvement. 

and it isn't such a short term incentive as 5 bucks a week.  it would be once a year.  so say in order to qualify for the incentive program, one is required to get a physical check up 3 times a year.  if by the end of the year the fatty has made noticeable - not necessarily remarkable - but noticeable gains in regards to physical aptitude, he will receive the same tax incentive that the healthy man who has remained healthy throughout the year would receive.


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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: tiny_rabid_birds]
    #11063832 -

but fatty does get more of a reward, fatty gets free health care, reward
#1, you then want to give an additional incentive for fatty getting ff his
ass as opposed to saying 'hey fatty, you weight 900lbs, we cant pay your
feed bill and we're dropping your insurance because you simply wont get
off the sofa, sure the springer show is great but you need to at least
walk to the mail box now and then because that's where we're leaving your
meals"

of course instead of leaving them food, leave them directions to the
town dum where they can forage and graze to their hearts content and
burial will be cheaper than buying a semi trailer for a casket

no incentive can compare to slow starvation


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California Has Legalized Child Prostitution

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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #11063921 -

i suppose you could make the entry into the incentive program mandatory once every other year or so.  so if you don't feel like participating for one year, that's fine, but you need to the next.  for those who repeatedly fail to appear or fail to show improvement/maintain the ideal, they will face higher taxes.  so reward the hardworkers, do nothing special for those who maintain the minimum requirements, and collect higher taxes from the repeat offenders.


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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: tiny_rabid_birds]
    #11063998 -

tiny_rabid_birds said:
i suppose you could make the entry into the incentive program mandatory once every other year or so.  so if you don't feel like participating for one year, that's fine, but you need to the next.  for those who repeatedly fail to appear or fail to show improvement/maintain the ideal, they will face higher taxes.  so reward the hardworkers, do nothing special for those who maintain the minimum requirements, and collect higher taxes from the repeat offenders.


I like the idea, but ill be damned if you can set one set of rules for a people. First of all applying the california standards to michigan would be a bitch... most people are over weight here. And someone brought up the BMI thing.. Anyone that lifts and has a good body from weight training has seen they have a BMI of a 50lb over weight person (electronic test.) Thats a bitch because my nutritionist tells me i need to loose weight and my Dr. tells me i need to gain. When i work out harder my body fat% goes down but i add lbs. It's confusing how they would have to handle it. Maybe 20 different parameters per gender.

I started this topic on a few boards, and im a little disappointed the shroomery failed to shit on me with this little gem:

If we had a canadian style plan take affect tomorrow where would we get all the Dr's to see the newly insured. Apparently (i never heard this) there is a medical professional shortage in the US. Theres way to many people for the current system to handle. Also someone brought up the idea that most likely universal coverage would lead to lower salaries for medical pros, leading to less students willing to take on the debt of college and med school tuition thereby increasing the shortage of medical pros.

It's a fucked up reason to say we should help people in need, but is still a valid question. How will the system handel this rush of people and all the treatment they will require, while still keeping up with ours.

BtW this bill will become a law, im calling it.


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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: tiny_rabid_birds]
    #11064197 -

why offer the incentive, why not let the the dead weight fall off and
reward the ones that work hard, maybe when grotunda sees that her svelt
sister is getting perks for her good health she'll either off herself and
save us the expense of paying her SSI for being a tub of goo

one of the things that's gone unaddressed was that obesity is a disability
so maybe we should disallow health care for the morbidly obese


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California Has Legalized Child Prostitution

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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #11064232 -

i dunno.  i liked the idea of the incentive actually rewarding those who put forth effort, rather than a fine simply punishing those who don't.  though i suppose it wouldn't be necessary.  it just seemed more user friendly.

i think it's the nice guy in me :shrug:


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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: tiny_rabid_birds]
    #11064298 -

Quote:
one of the things that's gone unaddressed was that obesity is a disability
so maybe we should disallow health care for the morbidly obese


Not going to work. People with thyroid problems, or need daily steroids come to mind. They are fucked and literally can't loose weight sometimes. They usually end up with diabetus or organ failure too ($).
I know a girl that had a blood infection somthing or other that gained 100 lbs on the Rx steroids. They prolly saved her life, but it took her 6 years to loose the weight, and she lost most of her viberence and self confidence with it. Bummer, if your in that position.


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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: tiny_rabid_birds]
    #11064324 -

tiny_rabid_birds said:
i think it's the nice guy in me :shrug:



I'm a nice guy, would you like some more nice guy in ya?

think of it as an 'incentive'


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California Has Legalized Child Prostitution

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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #11064356 -

No trb dont want none... but i can show you someone who would

.


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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: rodfarva]
    #11064382 -

rodfarva said:
Not going to work. People with thyroid problems, or need daily steroids come to mind. They are fucked and literally can't loose weight sometimes. They usually end up with diabetus or organ failure too ($).
I know a girl that had a blood infection somthing or other that gained 100 lbs on the Rx steroids. They prolly saved her life, but it took her 6 years to loose the weight, and she lost most of her viberence and self confidence with it. Bummer, if your in that position.


think of the billions we save each year if the sick people are allowed to die off

the thyroid issue is one of the great arguments against the incentive
program, people with hypothyroidism arent going to lose the weigh, while
it may be 1 in 300 that get it, that's still one million people that
simply cant lose the weight, diet, excersize, flab buster machines, it
doesnt matter, they'll never qualify for TRBs incentive program and
since it's a valid medical condition there's a million lawsuits for
discrimination.

the last few posts of mine were me having a little goof, I find the
ridiculousness of incentives for people to stay healthy to be ridiculous
because some people dont have the genetics to maintain that health, we
could put fat people in detwinkification programs but what's the point
if their genetics say it does no good


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California Has Legalized Child Prostitution

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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #11065169 -

I'm gunna eat a bunch of junk food so i can qualify as a super fatty and then loose a bunch of weight so i can get the grand prize.  then rinse and repeat!

the real problem is fattys WANT to be fat.  they would love to be something else, but culture doesn't afford that to them. 

the benefits of eating junk food and watching springer far outweight (pun intended) that of being skinny.


--------------------
We were sent to hell for eternity :hellfire: Ø:omgawesome:h®
We play on earth to pass the time :foreheadslap:

Over-population the root of all Evil-brings the Elites Closer to the gates.

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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: makaveli8x8]
    #11067111 -

For those of you who believe that a for profit health care system
will provide better care, overall, than a government run system
really need to watch this video Profits before Patients


--------------------
Live for the moment you are in now
Don't be bogged down by your past
Don't be afraid of what lies in your future

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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: niteowl]
    #11067640 -

Yeah, you know which side im on, i just really want to undrstand the arguments better, it's happening like it or not IMO.


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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: rodfarva]
    #11067665 -

The only real arguments against a public option
are coming from the health care lobbyist
who don't want any real competition
so they use scare tactics that many sheeple buy into


In every country that has public health care
the citizens prefer that option to the US profit driven option


--------------------
Live for the moment you are in now
Don't be bogged down by your past
Don't be afraid of what lies in your future

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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: niteowl]
    #11068300 -

Quote:
In every country that has public health care
the citizens prefer that option to the US profit driven option


Not in Australia! Stop making massive statements like these.

I'll choose private healthcare anyday over public healthcare.

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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: Chubba]
    #11068307 -

As an Australian I'm glad we have public health and have always been impressed by the treatment I have recieved.  I had a four day stay including surgery in a publc hospital last yeah to deal with a badly infected wisdom tooth.  The care and treatment was top notch and the only bill I got was just over $50 for take home medications.

Public health for the win.

If I'd had private insurance the benifits would have been a private room and a massive bill for the "extras" that insurance doesn't cover.


--------------------
Coaster is an idiot...
[quote]Coaster said:
but i thnk everything thats pure is white?
[/quote]



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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: Hanky]
    #11068320 -

What state are you in Hanky?

All I know is Queensland public healthcare system is completely fucked.

Last time I got injured, massive gaping hole in my knee the size of a fist, you could see all the bones and individual ligaments... took 20 hours before a nurse saw me... then I got ~30 seconds with the orthopaedic surgeon, then some knob fresh out of medical school (literally ~2 months) did the surgery... the entire time he's literally going "I think I'm doing a good job, this should turn out good".

Quote:
I had a four day stay including surgery in a publc hospital last yeah to deal with a badly infected wisdom tooth.


Oh that's dental, that's a whole different area, the majority of Aussies go to private dentists.

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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: Chubba]
    #11068323 -

that's typical of the wait times in the public hospitals in the US


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California Has Legalized Child Prostitution

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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #11068333 -

Quote:
that's typical of the wait times in the public hospitals in the US


It's not acceptable, that's why I went and purchased private healthcare.

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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: Chubba]
    #11068384 -

I understand that, I'm of the no insurance mindset because I dont
typically get sick or hurt in a way where I'd have my ass in a hospital,
it penalizes my kids though because of the way they've structured
insurance, to have the kids covered the parents have to be on the policy
as well

half the time I need care I just tough it out, it turns out that it
takes about 7 days to get past an infection with or without antibiotics,
I dont deem pain pills as a necessity be cause nothing has really ever
hurt that bad and the few times I've needed stitches it was cheap enough
to hit one of the hundreds of small doc shops we have and pay out of
pocket unless I can convince my brother or do it myself, I keep sutures
and lidocaine on hand for the critters anyway


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California Has Legalized Child Prostitution

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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: rodfarva]
    #11068413 -

Quote:
Public healthcare would only work if people weren't afraid of death. That's not the case though, everybody ends their life with a MASSIVE drain on the public healthcare system, with constant surgeries, intensive care, 24/7 nurse support... this can go on for years.


Thats why here in Holland we have a thing called euthanasia. So you can choose to stop the suffering.


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A weekend wasted is never a wasted weekend

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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: virus1824]
    #11068433 -

humane treatment of humans... here only animals are entitled to it


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California Has Legalized Child Prostitution

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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #11068442 -

Prisoner#1 said:
humane treatment of humans... here only animals are entitled to it


Exactly. Why spend countless thousands of dollars/euros into treatment,surgery and human working hours. Only to prolong the suffering of a patient who knows he/she will die of the disease anyway.

People with pancreatic cancer or A.L.S. Who opt for euthanasia so they can die in a humane manner. when they want, where they want. home instead of intensive care. so family can say their goodbye in a peaceful way.


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A weekend wasted is never a wasted weekend

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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: virus1824]
    #11068450 -

no telling how many billions are spent each year in the US keeping
terminal patients alive, it's one of the many failures that have been
mandated by government intervention here


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California Has Legalized Child Prostitution

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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #11068891 -

quite honestly, i wonder how much of that was lobbyist effort.  healthcare banks big by keeping vegetables alive.  they get to charge out the ass for minimal service.  just a thought.

and pris, in regards to the proposed incentive program and the supposed discrimination those with thyroid gland issues would face, the simple way to avoid that is to not base progress on weight/BMI.  a measure of physical aptitude would be rather fair across the board, because even those who are just naturally heftier are still able to condition their lungs and heart, despite whether it shows in shedded pounds.


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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: tiny_rabid_birds]
    #11069009 -

tiny_rabid_birds said:
a measure of physical aptitude would be rather fair across the board



to the contrary, trying to heft 400lbs around is far more difficul than moving 150lbs


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California Has Legalized Child Prostitution

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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #11069067 -

indeed it is, but even a 400lb person with thyroid and weight management issues can get out there and walk fast for 20 minutes a day.  doing something as simple as that would result in noticeable improvement on a basic physical aptitude test, if they were to stay dedicated.


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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: tiny_rabid_birds]
    #11069119 -

that's a hell of an assumption you make, women with large breast tend to
suffer a lot of back pain, imagine what it's like for those with
hypothyroidism, for them it's more than large breast and it's a strain on
all the joints as well as the back


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California Has Legalized Child Prostitution

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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: Chubba]
    #11069211 -

Chubba said:
Oh that's dental, that's a whole different area, the majority of Aussies go to private dentists.



I went to a private dentist.  They sent me straight to hospital.


--------------------
Coaster is an idiot...
[quote]Coaster said:
but i thnk everything thats pure is white?
[/quote]



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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #11069286 -

Prisoner#1 said:
that's a hell of an assumption you make, women with large breast tend to
suffer a lot of back pain, imagine what it's like for those with
hypothyroidism, for them it's more than large breast and it's a strain on
all the joints as well as the back


clinically diagnosed hyperthyroidism is one thing, and would likely be taken into account.  a somewhat overactive gland that leaves a person a bit chunky is another.  exceptions would be considered.  but overall, with a bit of work, i feel that some sort of similar program would help to get people active and generally healthier.


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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: Chubba]
    #11069933 -

Chubba said:
Quote:
that's typical of the wait times in the public hospitals in the US


It's not acceptable, that's why I went and purchased private healthcare.


Chubba said:
Quote:
In every country that has public health care
the citizens prefer that option to the US profit driven option


Not in Australia! Stop making massive statements like these.

I'll choose private healthcare anyday over public healthcare.


He should have said no government thinks the profit driven option is better.

...and i have some of the best private insurance an american can have, It costs my employer at least $500 a month and i still have a small copay each visit, and for drugs. If i go to a Detroit hospital ER the wait can be up to 12 hours for anything.  I saw a guy pass out from blood loss in the waiting room before the triage nurse escalated his status. Once i had a broken leg and they asked me to walk to the back room, didnt even offer me a chair. I was using a baseball bat as a cane when i arrived and security said i couldnt bring that in either so they gave me a chair with wheels to get to my seat. :rolleyes:

My dental coverage is over $100 a month paid by my employer, and entitles me to a maximum of $1800 a year in benefits, of which i pay %40 copays. I've already used the 1800 (and payed $720) to get root canals, i have to wait till December first to get the crowns or it will be about $2500 out of pocket. I make good money, and thats a big enough amount to make me wait. I cant Imagen most Americans affording that work either.

Chubba remember the grass is always greener on the other side,
especially where the dog shits.


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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: tiny_rabid_birds]
    #11070025 -

tiny_rabid_birds said:
Prisoner#1 said:
that's a hell of an assumption you make, women with large breast tend to
suffer a lot of back pain, imagine what it's like for those with
hypothyroidism, for them it's more than large breast and it's a strain on
all the joints as well as the back


clinically diagnosed hyperthyroidism is one thing, and would likely be taken into account.  a somewhat overactive gland that leaves a person a bit chunky is another.  exceptions would be considered.  but overall, with a bit of work, i feel that some sort of similar program would help to get people active and generally healthier.



see, now you've increased the doctor shopping so that people can find
one that will 'diagnose' them as they want to be, kind of like some
people will hit a dozen doctors until they find one that prescribes them
xanax or pain pills or what ever they want, it opens up a new for of
corruption and system abuse, all this adding to the rising costs of
medical care which will aid in it' failure or our over taxation...
not to mention it adds more of those contradictory amendments to the
bills that I mentioned earlier


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California Has Legalized Child Prostitution

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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #11070052 -

Yeah, but the private system is much easer to take advantage of. All i had to do to get Adderall was to go to a new dr and tell him i was diagnosed with ADHD in high school and its bothering me again. I even told him how many milligrams i wanted. public systems make records much easier to find.


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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: rodfarva]
    #11070081 -

why is that any different than a public system since all the records are shared for medical histories


http://www.lbl.gov/Education/ELSI/privacy-main.html

edit: wrong link


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California Has Legalized Child Prostitution

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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #11070120 -

In our system my current dr. would have no easy way to track down anything from ten years ago to disprove my claim. He could have re-evaluated me, but with public health care all the record belong to one agency, it's proven that public heath care systems have a higher degree of administrative efficiency.


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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: rodfarva]
    #11070137 -

your previous records are being entered into that database which is
accessible by all hospitals, I have been to a hospital 2 times in 20
years, once was more than 10 years ago with a broken ankle, the last time
was 2 years ago and I was asked about a previous address and my social
security number, both of which I dont deem to be important for medical
treatment, both were private hospitals


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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #11070164 -

Im not talking about a hospital, its a clinic dr. and even if he could find out, he hasnt tried, i can tell by how he asks me about all the scars and shit.


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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: rodfarva]
    #11070205 -

just because he doesnt check the database doesnt mean he's not connected
to it or entering the information into it, the purpose in the database is
questionable but one of it's objectives is to reduce drug seeking behavior

my ex wife cant go to any doctor with her claims of the ailment of the day
without being given some injection as opposed to a prescription for pain
pills, both pharmacies have access to the info as well because one
mentioned that her sister that lives 100 miles away exhibits the same behavior


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California Has Legalized Child Prostitution

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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #11070239 -

There are lots of my medical records from 10 years ago that I cannot find.


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Live for the moment you are in now
Don't be bogged down by your past
Don't be afraid of what lies in your future

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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #11070262 -

Do you think the files from 10 years ago all got entered into this database? real question.

I still owe the clinics parent co $1000 for removing a small metal splinter that was infected in my arm.
Fuckers at my work then wouldn't pay because i didnt notice it till i got home that night.


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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: rodfarva]
    #11070278 -

rodfarva said:
Do you think the files from 10 years ago all got entered into this database? real question.


:shrug:

I went looking for some specific records and was told that they were either lost or destroyed

:shake:


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Live for the moment you are in now
Don't be bogged down by your past
Don't be afraid of what lies in your future

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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: niteowl]
    #11070396 -

niteowl said:
There are lots of my medical records from 10 years ago that I cannot find.



you should update your filing system


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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: rodfarva]
    #11070403 -

rodfarva said:
Do you think the files from 10 years ago all got entered into this database? real question.


they're supposed to be


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California Has Legalized Child Prostitution

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Re: reasons the us is afraid of universal healthcare... [Re: niteowl]
    #11070418 -

niteowl said:
I went looking for some specific records and was told that they were either lost or destroyed



they said that about my step fathers military records, then they were
found a few years later and then they were lost when my mom was trying
to collect his death benefits


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