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Re: Obama Urges Longer School Hours/Days [Re: Adden]
    #11026371 -

Dystopia said:
"No child left behind" is your kid losing valuable time furthering his or her education while someone who has individual needs drags everyone down.

Don't forget to spend 2/3 of the year getting them prepared for state mandated tests. Unless these kids are going to get jobs that involve filling in the proper bubble, this is a waste of time and an improper use of tax dollars. I'm sure the teachers don't like it, either. They're not getting paid enough to care, anyway. Even if they did - what could they do to change it? Have the teacher's union go on strike so a kid with a bachelor's can step in at 19k a year?


i agree, "no child left behind" is terrible and completely ineffective.  but that doesn't mean i don't think kids should be required to go to school.

Quote:
Put the smart kids with the smart kids. Put the children that aren't so gifted in classes with people who are learning at the same pace.


this is already done in all school systems that can afford it.  remember, school systems are constantly in budget crises, particularly the inner city schools, or schools gerrymandered into other low income ares.  but in my public elementary school, we had a gifted program for those a little ahead of the pack, where we would learn additional science, art, literature and general mind-puzzle problem solving.

then in middle school and high school, there are honors/AP/IB classes.  they're more intensive, and generally faster paced.  again, this depends on the budget of the school though.  unfortunately, sometimes schools can't work these sort of programs into their budget, but that's more of a local issue than federal.  besides, you're against federal regulation, right?

Quote:
Stop cutting after-school programs. Encourage free thought. Mold the system to create individuals who want to attend school because they find things to be interesting and challenging. Stop giving everyone the same fucking thing with a pat on the back and their crisp new uniform... so they completely lose any identity.


again, i think this really depends on the school, and the ability of the teachers.  i know TONS of teachers whose dream it is to do exactly that.  to get their students earnestly interested in learning.  and they try their damndest but that's easier said than done. 

i don't know what kind of school you went to, but i went to a rather shitty public high school, and even still i could tell some of the better teachers were trying their hardest to cultivate creative interests and problem-solving skills in the kids.  of course, there were others who weren't so enthusiastic, or were jaded with experience.  those teachers who really make a difference should really be rewarded, shouldn't they?  funny thing is, that's one of the main selling points of Obama's proposed bill - merit-based bonuses for teachers whose students agree have really made a difference.

Quote:
Allow options and let children - in conjunction with their parents - help make decisions and choices about their educations. That way, umbrella parents won't have to freak out on a teacher for making a decision that they should have been making in the first place; but couldn't, because it's a failing social institution.


umm... how exactly is this disallowed?  if a parent doesn't want the child to go to the public school, they have quite a few different options.  home-schooling, for one.  private tutors, private schools, magnet schools, charter schools (which low income families actually can get grants towards tuition, as well as initiative via tax-based subsidies).

look, i don't think the system is perfect by any means.  but i AM saying that children must be educated throughout their childhood.  they should not simply be given the option to take a couple years off because they claim they're not ready.  it is far too influential of an age, where much social and mental development occurs.  self-discipline is a learned attribute.  to allow them to deny themselves an education because they say they don't feel like it is tantamount to child abuse.


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Re: Obama Urges Longer School Hours/Days [Re: tiny_rabid_birds]
    #11026473 -

tiny_rabid_birds said:
look, i don't think the system is perfect by any means.  but i AM saying that children must be educated throughout their childhood.  they should not simply be given the option to take a couple years off because they claim they're not ready.  it is far too influential of an age, where much social and mental development occurs.  self-discipline is a learned attribute.  to allow them to deny themselves an education because they say they don't feel like it is tantamount to child abuse.


Not only is the system not perfect, it was intentionally created for the sole purpose of having a ready made work force. Check out John Taylor Gatto's book.

You have provided no reason to believe that compulsory education is required in order for children to develop socially and mentally. No child would deny him/herself an education if he/she knew what the implications of doing so would be.


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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Obama Urges Longer School Hours/Days [Re: Poid]
    #11026521 -

Poid said:
No child would deny him/herself an education if he/she knew what the implications of doing so would be.


Fuck. They do it now.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: Obama Urges Longer School Hours/Days [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #11026575 -

Because they don't fully understand the implications of doing so. And/or they don't give a fuck. I wonder why that is...:strokebeard:


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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Obama Urges Longer School Hours/Days [Re: Poid]
    #11026585 -

Poid said:
No child would deny him/herself an education if he/she knew what the implications of doing so would be.


i suppose that's where we differ, because i think that's bullshit.  as i've already stated, self-discipline is a learned attribute.  a child without proper encouragement is not going to have discipline enough to make informed choices.  not to mention the complete lack of foresight.  they're simply children, you're expecting a lot more responsibility than is actually shown on average.  and that statement is proved wrong every day anyways.  parents, teachers, politicians all emphasize the need for a good education.  they have seminars and summer camps and assemblies in which they tell how important it is to study hard, make it to college, so that one can have options in one's future.  yet kids still fuck around and play hookie and refuse to put in an effort.

do you realize how hard it is for teachers in inner cities to get their children interested in education?  it sucks to say, but there are definite differences in cultures between income classes.  low-income parents are statistically more likely to be uneducated, substance dependent (most often alcohol), and generally less invested in their child's education - be it because they're bad parents, they don't care for education/don't think it's important, or simply because being low income they're forced to work ungodly hours just to make ends meet.  i grew up in trailer parks, so i'm pretty familiar with the low income bracket, fyi.

it's important for the children to develop the skills of self-discipline, study habits, and an appreciation for learning early on, for them to effectively be ingrained.  the best way to make sure there's an opportunity for such development is via mandatory schooling.  besides, kids don't even HAVE to go to public school.  i've already discussed the various options.  if parents don't like the way the school is run, they have the option to teach the kid themselves, or send them somewhere else.  but the kids MUST be taught.  they're only fucking children.  they cannot be expected to structure their own education or make well-informed decisions with foresight in regards to education.  at that age, immediate interests will always take precedence.


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Re: Obama Urges Longer School Hours/Days [Re: tiny_rabid_birds]
    #11026696 -

tiny_rabid_birds said:
Poid said:
No child would deny him/herself an education if he/she knew what the implications of doing so would be.


i suppose that's where we differ, because i think that's bullshit.  as i've already stated, self-discipline is a learned attribute.  a child without proper encouragement is not going to have discipline enough to make informed choices.  not to mention the complete lack of foresight.


Why do you think I added "...if he/she knew what the implications of doing so would be."?


tiny_rabid_birds said:
they're simply children, you're expecting a lot more responsibility than is actually shown on average.  and that statement is proved wrong every day anyways.  parents, teachers, politicians all emphasize the need for a good education.  they have seminars and summer camps and assemblies in which they tell how important it is to study hard, make it to college, so that one can have options in one's future.  yet kids still fuck around and play hookie and refuse to put in an effort.


Yeah, obviously kids don't enjoy and aren't compatible with the current status quo that's being sustained by parents, teachers, and politicians.


tiny_rabid_birds said:
do you realize how hard it is for teachers in inner cities to get their children interested in education?


Fuck yeah I do. That's why they need to learn at home on a computer and leave everyone else alone. :cool:


tiny_rabid_birds said:
it's important for the children to develop the skills of self-discipline, study habits, and an appreciation for learning early on, for them to effectively be ingrained. 


Totally agree. :thumbup:

That's why we need to change our faulty education system. :thumbup:


tiny_rabid_birds said:
the best way to make sure there's an opportunity for such development is via mandatory schooling.


:lol:, obviously not! :thumbdown:


tiny_rabid_birds said:
besides, kids don't even HAVE to go to public school.


There needn't be a public school for them to not have to go to. :craven:


tiny_rabid_birds said:
parents don't like the way the school is run, they have the option to teach the kid themselves, or send them somewhere else.  but the kids MUST be taught.  they're only fucking children.  they cannot be expected to structure their own education or make well-informed decisions with foresight in regards to education.


Unfortunately, as bad as public school is, many poor parents don't have any other options.


tiny_rabid_birds said:
at that age, immediate interests will always take precedence.


At that age, nothing else matters. :thumbup:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Obama Urges Longer School Hours/Days [Re: Poid]
    #11026876 -

Poid said:
Not only is the system not perfect, it was intentionally created for the sole purpose of having a ready made work force.


:rofl2:

Don't fucking work then.  And starve to death.


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Re: Obama Urges Longer School Hours/Days [Re: Poid]
    #11026920 -

there needn't be a school system?  that doesn't even make sense.  please, explain to me a better alternative.  online schooling?  no fucking way.  kids do best with an interactive environment.  receiving active encouragement, having a physical body for them to consult, having someone guide them through examples and then show them exactly where they're going wrong.

you're going against conventional wisdom here.  so the burden of proof is upon you.  show me some studies that illustrate that children are able to learn more effectively via whatever hairbrained method you're talking about, and then i'll start to take it seriously.  but to simply say that there needn't be a school system when it quite literally is sooooo many kids' only opportunity at an education is just fucking stupid. 

this is exactly why i got fed up and ended abruptly yesterday.  what you're saying makes no sense.  i tell you exactly why it makes no sense, and then you continue to assert the stance that makes no sense, without offering any statements of credulity.  i'm pretty sure i'm done with this debate now.  i'll view your rebuttal, but it seems unlikely you'll offer anything new or particularly enlightening that will deem a response.


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Edited by tiny_rabid_birds (09/09/09 12:01 PM)

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Re: Obama Urges Longer School Hours/Days [Re: tiny_rabid_birds]
    #11026932 -

Why are you responding to me?


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Re: Obama Urges Longer School Hours/Days [Re: zappaisgod]
    #11026946 -

because i don't know how to use the reply feature! :crankey:


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Re: Obama Urges Longer School Hours/Days [Re: tiny_rabid_birds]
    #11027199 -

zappaisgod said:
Poid said:
Not only is the system not perfect, it was intentionally created for the sole purpose of having a ready made work force.


:rofl2:

Don't fucking work then.  And starve to death.


:wtf:


The school system was not created for the benefit of individuals, rather, it was created so as to mass produce dumbed-down citizens whose only purpose is to serve others. I'm not going to go in depth into the history of all this, instead I will just refer you to John Taylor Gatto's book, and you can go from there if you so wish to. :shrug:


tiny_rabid_birds said:
online schooling?  no fucking way.  kids do best with an interactive environment.


Nope, not all kids. People are, and always have been a distraction to me when I am learning. :shrug:


tiny_rabid_birds said:
receiving active encouragement, having a physical body for them to consult, having someone guide them through examples and then show them exactly where they're going wrong.


The only thing here that isn't necessary is the "physical body" part.


tiny_rabid_birds said:
show me some studies that illustrate that children are able to learn more effectively via whatever hairbrained method you're talking about, and then i'll start to take it seriously.


It's already known that online schools are at least just as effective as traditional schooling, and I've mentioned this before a few times. :shrug:

Also, the high drop-out rate is indicative of the fact that modern schooling is glittershitz. :glittershitz:


tiny_rabid_birds said:
but to simply say that there needn't be a school system when it quite literally is sooooo many kids' only opportunity at an education is just fucking stupid.


I'm just saying the entire currently existing paradigm is fucked up; obviously, since there is currently no better alternative, I'd prefer students be in school right now.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

Edited by Poid (09/09/09 02:55 PM)

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Re: Obama Urges Longer School Hours/Days [Re: Poid]
    #11027437 -

Poid said:
zappaisgod said:
Poid said:
Not only is the system not perfect, it was intentionally created for the sole purpose of having a ready made work force.


:rofl2:

Don't fucking work then.  And starve to death.


:wtf:


The school system was not created for the benefit of individuals, rather, it was created so as to mass produce dumbed-down citizens whose only purpose is to serve others. I'm not going to go in depth into the history of all this, instead I will just refer you to John Taylor Gatto's book, and you can go from there if you so wish to. :shrug:


:flowstone:  Nobody forces you into it.  Nobody forces you to be a good worker bee.  My advice to you is to go for a nice long hike and settle down somewhere deep in the woods and contemplate the efficacy of a job that you can use to get money to trade for food and shelter and other things you might like.  If, in the course of your ruminations, you should decide that you do not care to take part in that monetary charade you can rise and forage and hunt and, in the end, die of exposure or starvation or animal attack or disease or any of several other calamities that befell stone age man.

But you will have avoided being a used up tool of The Man's society.  Yay for Poid, R.I.P.


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Re: Obama Urges Longer School Hours/Days [Re: zappaisgod]
    #11027448 -

:wtf:, I never said I was against working, you're talking to yourself here! :cuckoo:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Obama Urges Longer School Hours/Days [Re: tiny_rabid_birds]
    #11033326 -

tiny_rabid_birds said:
it's important for the children to develop the skills of self-discipline, study habits, and an appreciation for learning early on, for them to effectively be ingrained.


Important to learn self-discipline? To a certain extent, yes, but with 11% of men and 5% of women on anti-depressants1, something was gone incredibly wrong and at a very rapid pace.

People are taught to be like others. Ever been teased? God forbid your person, tastes, physical attributes, &c. stray from the norm. Society is formed of little "clusters" and the deviants are punished by others. The true reward is when they do it themselves, rather than to each other.

The ultimate goal of social conditioning is that the 'deviants' begin to punish themselves. Why have a bully on the playground telling you you're a failure, or a parental figure, or a report card - when you can just go home and do it yourself?

"Why why why do I suck so bad?"

If you're going to tell me I'm wrong, or this makes no sense, then your burden is to break down an entire social discourse explicated by Michel Foucault. Good luck.


I will agree on study habits and an appreciation for learning. It just doesn't have to be in such a compulsory manner. It also doesn't have to go so far as children punishing themselves for not being good enough for a system that's already fucked up.

I know this isn't 100% relevant to your post. It's an addition to how this ideological state apparatus is fragmented across the nation and failing. And no, I didn't get teased more than anyone else did throughout my youth.



1. "Scientific American Mind", February 2008.

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Re: Obama Urges Longer School Hours/Days [Re: Poid]
    #11033508 -

Poid said:
tiny_rabid_birds said:
Poid said:
No child would deny him/herself an education if he/she knew what the implications of doing so would be.


i suppose that's where we differ, because i think that's bullshit.  as i've already stated, self-discipline is a learned attribute.  a child without proper encouragement is not going to have discipline enough to make informed choices.  not to mention the complete lack of foresight.


Why do you think I added "...if he/she knew what the implications of doing so would be."?


all through school I was told the implications of poor grades, skipping
school and dropping out just as the majority of parent tell their kids,
as they get into high school, if they havent figured it out by then they
should be issued the McDonalds uniform and withdrawn


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California Has Legalized Child Prostitution

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Re: Obama Urges Longer School Hours/Days [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #11033515 -

But kids don't tend to realize the reality that is life. It usually takes a while, being told is obviously not enough; it's called the DGAF principle! :wink:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Obama Urges Longer School Hours/Days [Re: Adden]
    #11033561 -

that's true, but i'd argue that simply having self-discipline (aka the ability to keep one's focus and perform the necessary tasks, even if it isn't the most fun option) isn't necessarily synonymous with self-punishment.  and those "why am i so stupid" feelings of frustration needn't take root and become a stasis by any means if you remind yourself to stay optimistic. to keep focusing and trying hard for the sake of betterment, even if the improvements aren't as big as you'd like.

and i feel there are many, many more factors in our society which lead to depression than simple uniformity within the social construct.  for example, people are on average MUCH less active these days.  working out is often a tried and true prescription for minor depression.

and there's the fact that with the absurd number of chemical antidepressants out there along with national media coverage of "depression", it seems like everyone is depressed.  i feel the topic is just more out in the open and more open to discussion than in times past.  but in reality, many, many great people in the past long before our "system" were reported to have suffered from depression.  in fact, many fathers of the system suffered prior to the establishment of the system; john adams, thomas jefferson, abraham lincoln.  those are the only famous presidents i can think of off the top of my head who i know have been reported to suffered from severe depression.

essentially, i'm saying i really doubt you could attribute even the significant proportion of today's cases of clinical depression directly to being teased in school.  was i teased as a kid?  yeah.  everyone was.  that's what kids do.  kids can really be pricks, and they like to pick on one another.  but by high school i was perfectly happy being an outsider based on looks and i embraced it with fluorescent hair.  i wasn't depressed then, i'm not depressed currently.  sometimes i'll get down on myself because i'm shamefully lazy, but if i don't, how will i ever improve?

lastly, if not compulsory education, then what do you propose?  because as i've already stated, it is an absolute MUST to get the kids actually learning at a young age.  and i mean beyond a session of flash cards with the parents.  if we wish to not fall terribly behind in fields of science, we're going to need to step up the education of our children.  i think this requires new methods, certainly.  and there's nothing wrong with experimentation.  but i can tell you i know for a fact that letting kids choose not to go to school would be a failing foray into trying to achieve those objectives.  so tell me how you would propose to do it differently.


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Re: Obama Urges Longer School Hours/Days [Re: tiny_rabid_birds]
    #11033596 -

tiny_rabid_birds said:
essentially, i'm saying i really doubt you could attribute even the significant proportion of today's cases of clinical depression directly to being teased in school.  was i teased as a kid?  yeah.  everyone was.  that's what kids do.  kids can really be pricks, and they like to pick on one another.  but by high school i was perfectly happy being an outsider based on looks and i embraced it with fluorescent hair.  i wasn't depressed then, i'm not depressed currently.  sometimes i'll get down on myself because i'm shamefully lazy, but if i don't, how will i ever improve?


I fucking hated school. I was never teased, and if anyone ever tried to start shit with me, I always backed myself up. Being forced to be in the presence of a bunch of rich white kids did not do much to help my self-esteem. :nonono:


tiny_rabid_birds said:
lastly, if not compulsory education, then what do you propose?


Practically anything else! :lol:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Obama Urges Longer School Hours/Days [Re: tiny_rabid_birds]
    #11033613 -

If I had an answer, I'd be making a lot more money than I am now.

All I can provide are observations, complaints, and theory.

I've already thought of what the answer to your question is, and I don't even want to post it...

:facepalm:




Federal regulation of teachers' salaries along with money allocated to schools in relation to how many students it has. Use the funds of mandatory state testing and apply them immediately to aforementioned critical/creative programs. It really is the only way to deal with this on a mass scale and in a timely fashion.

Oh man, for fuck's sake...

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Re: Obama Urges Longer School Hours/Days [Re: Poid]
    #11033637 -

i'm sorry, but "anything else" doesn't cut it.  that's an absolute recipe for disaster.  children must be taught.  for children, online education absolutely would not be enough, even though i know you're a big proponent of it.  children are not adults.  they're not responsible, independent individuals.  i'm tired of hearing from you though.  i know your thoughts, as you've repeated them enough.  i'd like to hear from dystopia on what alternate model he'd propose.


edit:  ahahaha... i bet that was painful for you to say.  the thing about giving better teachers better pay is in the bill.  however, given no child left behind, federally mandated aptitude tests don't always have the  desired effects, and end with kids just being taught how to answer the tests, particularly in inner city schools where funding is very limited and children seem less enthusiastic about learning.

it's a fucking sticky situation, with no easy answer for sure.  but you'll notice that i simply cannot back off the idea that the children must be taught.  it is each individual child's best hope at a better future.  honestly, despite having gone to a rather shitty high school where i coasted through with the worst imaginable study habits, i'm still grateful to public education.  i was able to get into a respectable university and get a degree.  if nothing else, i have that piece of paper that will sure as hell help me get a job somewhere, even if it isn't necessarily where i want to work.


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