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Re: Obama Urges Longer School Hours/Days [Re: Poid]
    #11005172 -

lengthening the school year or day will do nothing to change anything because it's not the cause of any of the problems we have with kids not learning shit.


--------------------
i finally got around to making a sig
revel in its glory and quake in fear at its might
grar.

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Re: Obama Urges Longer School Hours/Days [Re: Mushmonkey]
    #11005441 -

Quote:
He proposed longer class hours as part of a broader effort to improve U.S. schools that he said are falling behind foreign competitors.

"Despite resources that are unmatched anywhere in the world, we have let our grades slip, our schools crumble, our teacher quality fall short, and other nations outpace us," Obama said. "In 8th grade math, we've fallen to 9th place. Singapore's middle-schoolers outperform ours three to one. Just a third of our 13- and 14-year olds can read as well as they should."




:coaster:

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Re: Obama Urges Longer School Hours/Days [Re: Mushmonkey]
    #11005826 -

Mushmonkey said:
lengthening the school year or day will do nothing to change anything because it's not the cause of any of the problems we have with kids not learning shit.



Yes, it won't eliminate the sense of entitlement the current crop has. Perhaps if they weren't so busy bitching about having to learn, they might actually *gasp* learn.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: Obama Urges Longer School Hours/Days [Re: Poid]
    #11006275 -

I think that longer school hours is the educational equivalent of putting a bandaid on a gunshot wound to the head.
I believe that the public school system in its current state is fundamentally broken. It appears to me that trying to press all these individual kids through the same mold is the cause of the problem. All kids should be given the chance to excel, and those that do not can look forward to working at walmart.

Here is short story about my childhood experience with the public school system that gives a relevant example.

When I was young, I really enjoyed first through fourth grade. It was a small school with two classrooms. First and second grade were in one class room, and third and forth in the other. I remember being in third and forth grade and there was never more than 7-10 kids in the room, this was including both third and fourth grade students.
It was a fun time. We learned all kinds of things. I remember getting all the way to the introduction of variables in math. They also had us reading very well. By the time we got through forth grade we had already read White fang, Call of the wild, and The Hobbit. Having students from both grades in a single room exposed us to more material at once and allowed those who could excel to actually do so.

When fifth grade hit, we had to be packed onto a bus and shipped an hour up the road to a real school, in a place that actually qualified as a town.
It was pure hell. It was like I wasn't able to "really learn" anymore. The curriculum switched to the prepackaged educational material that they just feed the kids. There was no way to excel. The material was repetitive and dumbed down so that even the slow kids could keep up.  It felt like it became more about doing what you are told.
From fifth grade on my attendance dropped and my grades were poor. I didn't want to be there and I didn't give a shit. I don't think I ever got an A in a class after fifth grade. My grades ranged from B to D, mostly floating about a C. They just kept passing me through the system, on to the next grade. I know that I didn't deserve to pass some of those classes. I refused to do homework, pay attention, or give a shit. I have no Idea how I was passed through seventh and eighth grade. My attendance was nearing the point where the authorities get involved, and I never did anything. I do not recall ever doing homework. The only class  that I was allowed to excel in was math. I was in "advanced math" classes in both seventh and eighth grade. I also received poor grades in these classes due to already not giving a shit. The material was easy.

When I got to ninth grade I basically quit. I barely showed up, and didn't do a single thing. I was 14 and my attendance got to the point that authorities did get involved. My attitude was that they could make me show up, but they sure as hell couldn't make me do anything. I clearly did not want to be there and was put into "home school" to avoid legal trouble. "Home school" was the equivalent of dropping out at 14. I was out of high school and enrolled in "home school" within 3 months of starting.

Ages 14-18 consisted of massive amounts of skateboarding and acid. I took the GED test when I was 19 and was told that I scored "very high".
Wikipedia says that "To pass the GED Tests and earn a GED credential, test takers must score higher than 40 percent of graduating high school seniors nationwide."


For me to have scored higher than 40% of graduating high school students is amazing. I barely did anything from 5th grade onward, and I surely did not do anything from seventh to ninth grade when I dropped out. 

My opinion of my self through the  ages of 14-23, was that I was basically retarded. I started at a community college when I was about 23 and was scared that I would not be able to do well. My placement test put me into a college level English class and I thought that there was a mistake. When I began writing papers for class, I actually asked the instructor if my papers felt like they had been written by an eighth grader. It wasn't until we had to "peer review" other students papers that I felt better. I was in a class with students directly out of high school and had the chance to read some of their papers. I remember thinking "holy shit, what the fuck do they teach kids in high school". Most of these papers were no better than mine, many worse, many better.
Just to finish the story, I am now just over half way to a BS in physics with GPA of 3.79. The GPA could have been higher, but I'm really lazy. :wink:
School is now my favorite activity, and I would love to go on to graduate school.


In short, I think that longer school hours is a horrible idea that borderlines on retarded. You can not force a kid to learn. You just have to give them the chance. I was never presented with the opportunity to attend any form of alternative schooling and would probably have done much better given the chance, and the correct form of "education" for me.
I think that most people want to learn.  I have no suggestion as to how this would be implemented, but those students who can succeed and get ahead should be given every opportunity to do so, and should not be held back or restricted in anyway due the inability or unwillingness of other students to keep up. Bad teachers need to be shit canned with a quickness. And students that are unable or unwilling to learn can look forward to service jobs and manual labor.

That was a hell of a rant.
Thank you.


--------------------
shroomery.
not even once.


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Re: Obama Urges Longer School Hours/Days [Re: THC Titan]
    #11009744 -

THC Titan said:
You don't provide any support whatsoever for your premise that "everything can be learned at home on a computer".



Everything I learned in school was pretty much read from a textbook. I'll admit that there may be certain subtle things that can't be learned in solitude, but these are the types of things that a child should learn as they naturally interact with people of their choosing; they should not be forced to learn anything.


THC Titan said:
School is intended to be more than just gaining an academic education, anyway.



Which is precisely why it is obsolete. :shrug:


Mushmonkey said:
lengthening the school year or day will do nothing to change anything because it's not the cause of any of the problems we have with kids not learning shit.



:thumbup:


luvdemshrooms said:
Mushmonkey said:
lengthening the school year or day will do nothing to change anything because it's not the cause of any of the problems we have with kids not learning shit.



Yes, it won't eliminate the sense of entitlement the current crop has. Perhaps if they weren't so busy bitching about having to learn, they might actually *gasp* learn.



Holy shit, human beings are all at least slightly narcissistic! :whoa:

I guess the Jews' narcissistic sense of entitlement back in WWII was unwarranted. :shrug:


sherm said:
I believe that the public school system in its current state is fundamentally broken. It appears to me that trying to press all these individual kids through the same mold is the cause of the problem. All kids should be given the chance to excel, and those that do not can look forward to working at walmart.



:thumbup:


sherm said:
When I got to ninth grade I basically quit. I barely showed up, and didn't do a single thing. I was 14 and my attendance got to the point that authorities did get involved. My attitude was that they could make me show up, but they sure as hell couldn't make me do anything. I clearly did not want to be there and was put into "home school" to avoid legal trouble. "Home school" was the equivalent of dropping out at 14. I was out of high school and enrolled in "home school" within 3 months of starting.



I basically quit in 9th grade, too. I guess I have too much self-respect to subject myself to all the bullshit that is compulsory education. :shrug:

I wish I was home schooled, I think you are lucky to have been.


sherm said:
In short, I think that longer school hours is a horrible idea that borderlines on retarded. You can not force a kid to learn. You just have to give them the chance. I was never presented with the opportunity to attend any form of alternative schooling and would probably have done much better given the chance, and the correct form of "education" for me.



:thumbup:


sherm said:
I think that most people want to learn.  I have no suggestion as to how this would be implemented, but those students who can succeed and get ahead should be given every opportunity to do so, and should not be held back or restricted in anyway due the inability or unwillingness of other students to keep up. Bad teachers need to be shit canned with a quickness. And students that are unable or unwilling to learn can look forward to service jobs and manual labor.




Nobody doesn't want to learn. Even retarded children delight at receiving new knowledge.

I think everybody should just basically learn shit on their own; these days, you can learn almost anything at a local library. There's no need for shitty, mean teachers, and an oppressive administrative staff. This shit is for the farm days...


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Obama Urges Longer School Hours/Days [Re: Poid]
    #11014022 -

So, what was it like to learn calculus and/or physics without a teacher?

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Re: Obama Urges Longer School Hours/Days [Re: THC Titan]
    #11014061 -

THC Titan said:
So, what was it like to learn calculus and/or physics without a teacher?



he never made it past 9th grade. he probably couldn't even teach himself y=mx+b lol

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Re: Obama Urges Longer School Hours/Days [Re: Poid]
    #11014434 -

Maybe, instead of concentrating so many resources on trying to make sure the children in over-crowded low-income public schools are efficient at calculating quantum trajectories and all that jazz, we can just teach them how to get a job, do taxes, finance loans, etc.

Maybe if we stopped trying to make all of our children out to be advanced physics majors we can teach them the every day shit that will actually help them live their lives.  You know, the shit that nobody ever taught me that would have fucking helped a lot :shakefist:


--------------------
From dust you are made and to dust you shall return.

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Re: Obama Urges Longer School Hours/Days [Re: elbisivni]
    #11014918 -

that's an interesting point.

one of the things my grandpa always talked about from his time living in taiwan was that the children there, from a very young age, have to work real jobs at school. i'm not talking about sweat shop type stuff, but it was actually part of their curriculum. the kids there go in to school early in the morning and take normal courses, then in the afternoon they go to a work class where they get real experience doing different jobs. it's long hours, and they don't usually get out before dinner, but they get to keep what they earn. i won't get into all the benefits, but it teaches the kids money management, and it keeps them out of trouble after school.

idk if things are still run like that in taiwan. that was in the late 60's.

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Re: Obama Urges Longer School Hours/Days [Re: DieCommie]
    #11017843 -

DieCommie said:
Summer breaks FTL.  They are not needed anymore and do a disservice to students.




well tell me young man, just who the fuck is going to be growing your
food in a few years, agriculture isnt something commonly taught in
schools, kids learn it by helping their parents

enjoy starvation or high priced imports since the american farm will
dissolve leaving no competition, subsidized or otherwise for the
imports, the best part, the majority come in duty free but they dont
pass that savings along to you

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Re: Obama Urges Longer School Hours/Days [Re: THC Titan]
    #11017887 -

THC Titan said:
Poid said:
Obviously, since everything can be learned at home on a computer, school is obsolete as a mechanism of education, right? So then, why does it still exist?


I know that some people prefer learning in a social context, and that's fine, but you have to account for those who prefer to learn independently, like myself. For me, and others like me, learning and socializing is a contridiction of terms.



You don't provide any support whatsoever for your premise that "everything can be learned at home on a computer". School is intended to be more than just gaining an academic education, anyway. There are skills you learn in groups that cannot be learned even in focused, solitary thought.




You don't provide any support whatsoever for your premise that there
are skills you learn in groups that cannot be learned even in focused,
solitary thought.

what skills would those be?

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Re: Obama Urges Longer School Hours/Days [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #11017914 -

Prisoner#1 said:
THC Titan said:
Poid said:
Obviously, since everything can be learned at home on a computer, school is obsolete as a mechanism of education, right? So then, why does it still exist?


I know that some people prefer learning in a social context, and that's fine, but you have to account for those who prefer to learn independently, like myself. For me, and others like me, learning and socializing is a contridiction of terms.



You don't provide any support whatsoever for your premise that "everything can be learned at home on a computer". School is intended to be more than just gaining an academic education, anyway. There are skills you learn in groups that cannot be learned even in focused, solitary thought.




You don't provide any support whatsoever for your premise that there
are skills you learn in groups that cannot be learned even in focused,
solitary thought.

what skills would those be?



Interpersonal interaction, for starters.

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Re: Obama Urges Longer School Hours/Days [Re: THC Titan]
    #11018134 -

THC Titan said:
Prisoner#1 said:
THC Titan said:
Poid said:
Obviously, since everything can be learned at home on a computer, school is obsolete as a mechanism of education, right? So then, why does it still exist?


I know that some people prefer learning in a social context, and that's fine, but you have to account for those who prefer to learn independently, like myself. For me, and others like me, learning and socializing is a contridiction of terms.



You don't provide any support whatsoever for your premise that "everything can be learned at home on a computer". School is intended to be more than just gaining an academic education, anyway. There are skills you learn in groups that cannot be learned even in focused, solitary thought.




You don't provide any support whatsoever for your premise that there
are skills you learn in groups that cannot be learned even in focused,
solitary thought.

what skills would those be?



Interpersonal interaction, for starters.




you mean to say they now allow for disruption of class by talking?

what exactly makes that a skill

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Re: Obama Urges Longer School Hours/Days [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #11019449 -

Prisoner#1 said:
DieCommie said:
Summer breaks FTL.  They are not needed anymore and do a disservice to students.




well tell me young man, just who the fuck is going to be growing your
food in a few years



ConAgra and Monsanto.

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Re: Obama Urges Longer School Hours/Days [Re: Redstorm]
    #11019639 -

they're in the business of engineering and seed distribution, not farming, that's why they sell their products world wide

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Re: Obama Urges Longer School Hours/Days [Re: THC Titan]
    #11019657 -

THC Titan said:
So, what was it like to learn calculus and/or physics without a teacher?



There are calculus and physics books for dummies. I don't see what's so hard about learning these things from text.

In any case, calculus is extremely unnecessary for people who aren't striving for a college degree. :shrug:


elbisivni said:
Maybe, instead of concentrating so many resources on trying to make sure the children in over-crowded low-income public schools are efficient at calculating quantum trajectories and all that jazz, we can just teach them how to get a job, do taxes, finance loans, etc.

Maybe if we stopped trying to make all of our children out to be advanced physics majors we can teach them the every day shit that will actually help them live their lives.  You know, the shit that nobody ever taught me that would have fucking helped a lot :shakefist:



Every child needs access to the same opportunities, but I am against the idea that children need to be forced to do things.


JT said:
that's an interesting point.

one of the things my grandpa always talked about from his time living in taiwan was that the children there, from a very young age, have to work real jobs at school. i'm not talking about sweat shop type stuff, but it was actually part of their curriculum. the kids there go in to school early in the morning and take normal courses, then in the afternoon they go to a work class where they get real experience doing different jobs. it's long hours, and they don't usually get out before dinner, but they get to keep what they earn. i won't get into all the benefits, but it teaches the kids money management, and it keeps them out of trouble after school.

idk if things are still run like that in taiwan. that was in the late 60's.



That system seems better than ours. :shrug:


THC Titan said:
Prisoner#1 said:
THC Titan said:
Poid said:
Obviously, since everything can be learned at home on a computer, school is obsolete as a mechanism of education, right? So then, why does it still exist?


I know that some people prefer learning in a social context, and that's fine, but you have to account for those who prefer to learn independently, like myself. For me, and others like me, learning and socializing is a contradiction of terms.



You don't provide any support whatsoever for your premise that "everything can be learned at home on a computer". School is intended to be more than just gaining an academic education, anyway. There are skills you learn in groups that cannot be learned even in focused, solitary thought.




You don't provide any support whatsoever for your premise that there
are skills you learn in groups that cannot be learned even in focused,
solitary thought.

what skills would those be?



Interpersonal interaction, for starters.



:lol:, does anybody really need to learn how to interact with others? :flowstone:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

Edited by Poid (09/08/09 09:22 AM)

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Re: Obama Urges Longer School Hours/Days [Re: Poid]
    #11019884 -

> :lol:, does anybody really need to learn how to interact with others? :flowstone:

Yes.  Social skills are a learned trait.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.

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Re: Obama Urges Longer School Hours/Days [Re: Seuss]
    #11019888 -

Yes, one that can be learned anywhere.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Obama Urges Longer School Hours/Days [Re: Poid]
    #11019976 -

Poid said:
Yes, one that can be learned anywhere.



By yourself?

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Re: Obama Urges Longer School Hours/Days [Re: THC Titan]
    #11019985 -

Who weans themselves? :justdontknow:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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