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General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: Scepticism [Re: raytrace]
    #1084154 -

I can see how clear thinking could get "in the way of" emotionalism.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Scepticism [Re: Swami]
    #1084341 -

I can see how misleading your statement may be.

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Re: Scepticism [Re: Swami]
    #1084342 -

I can see how misleading your statement may be.

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Re: Scepticism [Re: ]
    #1084378 -

And Goedel 'proved' it using logic. Sounds kinda circular to me.

Not any more circular than using a bottle of beer to open a bottle of beer. Goedel basically showed that the number of true statements is higher than the number of correct proofs. Not circular at all.

Now go and try opening a bottle of beer with the same bottle of beer. Then we talk about the validity of using logic to determine whom it is who is using logic.  :wink: 

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Re: Scepticism [Re: Nomad]
    #1084477 -

When it comes to Goedel and such, Nomad is the man to ask. He knows what he is talking about. (+ it seems to me he's got a pretty balanced worldview)

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Re: Scepticism [Re: Nomad]
    #1084538 -

Well done.

Yes, I knew that but I was shamming.  You caught me.  Very Good!

:grin:

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Re: Scepticism [Re: ]
    #1085143 -

Yes, I knew that but I was shamming. You caught me. Very Good!

LOL  :laugh:

Well... yeah... i'm not sure. Wouldn't a simple truth table be a way to prove every possible statement in logic right or wrong?

 

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Re: Scepticism [Re: raytrace]
    #1085216 -

When it comes to Goedel and such, Nomad is the man to ask. He knows what he is talking about.

Thanks  :blush:. I'm not nearly as knowledgeable as I pretend to be. But, yeah, I've done some excessive pondering on these things (too much, probably).

You raised some excellent points in this thread. I guess the problem with science is that it's basically a "What if" - approach. Science says: "Forget for one moment that you are human. Imagine you were an omnipresent God, not looking with eyes, but percieving creation as it is. Watch each atom sitting in it's piece of matter, watch the dance of electrons, watch the patterns rise and fall... what would you do with that?"

In "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance", which is an awesome book, it's pointed out that, while no human has ever seen both the front side and the back side of a motorcycle at the same time, and no human ever will, it's a scientific fact that the back side exists even while you are looking at the front side. There's your omnipresent godlike observer in a nutshell. And the problem with that, the ultimate paradox of science, is mind. Science deals exclusively with matter and, therefore, cannot explain mind. But everything we percieve is mind. With our mind we watch an experiment, with our mind we draw the conclusions, build a theory, make up laws... with our mind do we create a new experiment for testing an idea in our mind. With our mind we experience the fruit of a successful scientific discovery.

When science deals with mind, we get one hell of a contradicting mess. Physics says that the bottle of beer in front of me is reflecting rays of light into my eyes. But brain science says that, upon getting the input from somewhere, my brain unfolds space to put the image of a bottle in front of me. How can that be? Constructivism made a head start, explained life, the universe, and everything else, and then, with one final stroke of ink, proved it's own nonexistance - because, if every reality is constructed, then constructivism is, too. I'm convinced that trying to solve such issues with logic is the shortest way to insanity - every premise will lead to it's own contradiction, leaving nothing but smoke in the wind. "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance" is about just that, the true story of a guy who tried to hunt down the ghost of rationality and found nothing but madness. One notices that those who use logic to the extreme possess a rather strong "common sense" - they just won't question certain things. Rationalism largely consists of lines that you do not cross.That is good, because common sense saves you from insanity. But that is bad, too, because it leaves you vulnerable to the dead end of consensus trance.


(+ it seems to me he's got a pretty balanced worldview)

That depends... does flipping from one extreme to the other count as balancing?
   

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Re: Scepticism [Re: Nomad]
    #1088213 -

You'll do well here. I am surprised we haven't run into each other before if you have been a member longer than I have.

There was a time when Pirsig was like a God to me. I have a collection of ZAMM including copies from other countries. I really liked Lila too. He has a website where people interested in his ideas can post.

Oddly enough though I feel in love with Pirsig it was Aristotle that saved me. And the man who Pirsig poked fun at in his book. Bob's problems were two fold. The first one was that he was legitimately insane, and probably is today. And the second is that he misread Aristotle.

The Great Books program was a great program and Robert Hutchins was a great man.

Cheers,

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Re: Scepticism [Re: ]
    #1090300 -

I think I'll start a thread about the book once I've read it for the fifth time. It's so amazing... it cuts directly into the frontline between philosophy and spirituality, and that seems to be a major issue here.

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Re: Scepticism [Re: Nomad]
    #1090600 -

Great! I can hardly wait for you to start it.

There is another book worth reading if you are into ZAMM. It's called Guidebook to Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance. Inside the cover I wrote these words:

This book seems like yet another attempt to buy psychological contentment at the price of reason or rationality.


I also have ZAMM in cd-rom so I can listen to it while I am in nature. A profound experience to be sure.

Cheers,

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Re: Scepticism [Re: Nomad]
    #1091493 -

Thanks for your comments :smile:

I intend to read "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance". I have heard much about it.

Forget for one moment that you are human
Unfortunately, I don't have the time to discuss this... I will return on this sometime.


does flipping from one extreme to the other count as balancing?
you know... balance is unattainable without flexibility :wink:
     

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Re: Scepticism [Re: Phluck]
    #1091501 -

check out the new issue of Newsweek. The front page reads: "The Science of Alternative Medicine". Oh, the pharmaceutical companies will be sooo upset...

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Re: Scepticism [Re: raytrace]
    #1092704 -

I'm sure they're just shitting themselves.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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Re: Scepticism [Re: Phluck]
    #1093672 -

no, not themselves, just everyone else

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Re: Scepticism [Re: raytrace]
    #1093843 -

Huh?


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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Re: Scepticism [Re: Phluck]
    #1093851 -

Alternative medicine is this:

Medicine that has not been proven effective. This means, some of it likely does work, but the majority probably does not. After it is tested, then we'll see.

It can be dangerous though. There are people who believed so blindly in an alternative practice that they refuse standard treatment, and then often die. They'll go in for a few Energy-Vibe Happy Thought sessions or whatever, and come out feeling wonderful, and think that they're getting better. People don't understand the power of placebo. They convince themselves that they're healed, and often suffer pretty nasty consequences.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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Re: Scepticism [Re: Phluck]
    #1094323 -

Medicine that has not been proven effective.
...and when it is proven, it stops being alternative. All the proven medicines you know... were once... alternative...  :smile: 

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Re: Scepticism [Re: raytrace]
    #1094785 -

Yeah, I'm not disagreeing with that, but most alternative medicine is bullshit.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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