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Offlinedeafpanda
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My sceptical belief in "god"
    #3592734 - 01/07/05 09:24 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Here it is, in logical steps, my reasons for believing in what I will for want of a better word call "god". This is by no means supposed to be a logical proof, it is just the chain of reasoning that has made me think that there is more chance of there being a god than not.

-I have had what I can only deem "mystical experiences"

-I cannot reconcile these experiences with the flesh and blood, bread and butter world. They appear to be of a totally different order to everyday reality. They are ineffable.

-Because of the above, I think it is likely that these experiences include an ingredient X, which possesses the quality of ineffability (if you can call that a quality, its more like a lack of discernable qualities)

-Therefore I believe in "god" (ingredient X).

Obviously my belief is not certain (beliefs never are). It grows and shrinks with significant moments in my life. I do however feel that I have sufficient evidence for my belief to be justified.

See, there's no reason that scepticism has to rule out belief in god. I doubt that god exists, but I doubt more that god doesn't exist, if you see what I mean.


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OfflineAlan Stone
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Re: My sceptical belief in "god" [Re: deafpanda]
    #3593113 - 01/07/05 11:59 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

I have had the same experiences. Then I saw a documentary on the effect of certain frequencies of EM radiation on the brain. They produced exactly the same kind of experience I had.

Now I'm not so sure anymore. I'd say I'm still 60% pro God existing, but no more than that.


--------------------
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

- Aristotle


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Offlinedeafpanda
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Re: My sceptical belief in "god" [Re: Alan Stone]
    #3593136 - 01/07/05 12:07 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Then I saw a documentary on the effect of certain frequencies of EM radiation on the brain. They produced exactly the same kind of experience I had.




So? Drugs created my experiences, but that is no evidence that they are invalid.

My reasoning is thus: some people have these experiences naturally, without the aid of drugs. Thinking logically, it is likely that during these experiences these people's brain activity changed in a way that is similar to the EM radiation you mentioned and also similar to psychedelic drugs. I think this makes sense because I think that brain states are equated more or less with mental states, that is that certain types of neurological events necessarily cause certain types of mental events. See what I mean?


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Offlineexclusive58
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Re: My sceptical belief in "god" [Re: deafpanda]
    #3593145 - 01/07/05 12:10 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

it all depends what meaning you give to the word "god".


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Offlineexclusive58
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Re: My sceptical belief in "god" [Re: exclusive58]
    #3593163 - 01/07/05 12:15 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

so according to you, having a religious experience means that god exists, sorry but i don't see the link between the two, or maybe i just didn't understand you.


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Offlinedeafpanda
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Re: My sceptical belief in "god" [Re: exclusive58]
    #3593172 - 01/07/05 12:18 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

No, I said that having a religious experience has caused me to believe that it is likely that god exists. It in no way proves it, but, like Alan, I am around 60% sure. This figure changes with my life experiences.

Edit: I'd say more like 75% actually.


Edited by deafpanda (01/07/05 12:19 PM)


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Offlineexclusive58
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Re: My sceptical belief in "god" [Re: deafpanda]
    #3593182 - 01/07/05 12:20 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

so what image do you have of god, if he/it exists? where is he/it located in the universe?


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Offlinedeafpanda
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Re: My sceptical belief in "god" [Re: exclusive58]
    #3593184 - 01/07/05 12:21 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

I believe that no-one can have knowledge of it.


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Offlinedeafpanda
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Re: My sceptical belief in "god" [Re: exclusive58]
    #3593189 - 01/07/05 12:23 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

What would seem most logically consistent is that it would be everywhere at once. Omnipresent. I don't think it can be described further without running great risks of inaccuracy.


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Offlineexclusive58
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Re: My sceptical belief in "god" [Re: deafpanda]
    #3593214 - 01/07/05 12:30 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

ya, i read somewhere that at one point, physicists will discover something in quantum physics or whatever that will make them come face to face with god. they're still searching for the elementary particles that make up the universe, and they already know that once they'll discover all of them, something big will be unraveled to them.


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: My sceptical belief in "god" [Re: exclusive58]
    #3593235 - 01/07/05 12:38 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

exclusive58 said:
ya, i read somewhere that at one point, physicists will discover something in quantum physics or whatever that will make them come face to face with god. they're still searching for the elementary particles that make up the universe, and they already know that once they'll discover all of them, something big will be unraveled to them.





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Offlineexclusive58
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Re: My sceptical belief in "god" [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #3593262 - 01/07/05 12:46 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

huh?


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: My sceptical belief in "god" [Re: deafpanda]
    #3593539 - 01/07/05 02:21 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

the experiences you have had (beyond physical, normal waking world) are indicative of higher or different realms of conciousness/experience/perception that you as a human have access to. They do not nescessarily imply a jehovaesque God.

As always my answer is that the increasing discovery of god is the continuous discovery of new and wonderfull layers of your self. as each layer of limitation is stripped away, you come closer and closer to the infinite, and the realization that the infinite, GOD, or at least the seed of it, has always been contained in you.

A vision can mean many things. But what IS certain is that you have begun to discover just how shallow yoru previous conception of reality has been. How deep you go is up to you, but at the end of your journeys the godhead awaits.


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Offlinedeafpanda
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Re: My sceptical belief in "god" [Re: Moonshoe]
    #3593580 - 01/07/05 02:34 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

the experiences you have had (beyond physical, normal waking world) are indicative of higher or different realms of conciousness/experience/perception that you as a human have access to. They do not nescessarily imply a jehovaesque God.




I think that the Christian/Muslim/whatever god is a ridiculous idea.  I called "it" god, as I said, for want of a better word.

Quote:

As always my answer is that the increasing discovery of god is the continuous discovery of new and wonderfull layers of your self. as each layer of limitation is stripped away, you come closer and closer to the infinite, and the realization that the infinite, GOD, or at least the seed of it, has always been contained in you.




It has always been contained in me, and I know that, even if it doesn't exist then it has still always been contained in me, in that case it is just a function of my neurology instead of "god" (note the quotes...)

Quote:

A vision can mean many things. But what IS certain is that you have begun to discover just how shallow yoru previous conception of reality has been.




I don't accept this.  I have always had "spiritual" feelings, I just attributed them to my perceived superiority over other people.  I got over this superiority complex in time and gradually these feelings became more intense as I grew older, I had several "mystical experiences" and I had to attribute them to something else.

My previous conception of reality was not really shallower than it is now.  I had the same sensations of peace and being at one with the universe before I believed in any higher power.  This is what gets me, how much religious people look down on people who aren't religious.  I suggest that there are many religious people who's "conception of reality" is a great deal more primitive than some atheists.  Spirituality does not require a need to believe in something, in my opinion.

I think that we are all spiritual, and we will all get these feelings.  Some may attribute them to a higher power, some may believe that they are a function of their neurology.  They are the same feelings.

Quote:

How deep you go is up to you, but at the end of your journeys the godhead awaits.




we'll see :wink:


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: My sceptical belief in "god" [Re: deafpanda]
    #3593617 - 01/07/05 02:45 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

"I don't accept this. I have always had "spiritual" feelings"

maybe you misunderstand me. what i meant is that these mystical experiences show that there are whole realms of experience that you have not yet explored. I dont mean shallow in a negative way, i simply mean that this might be an opening to those 'deeper' levels of perception.

btw: how about a little description of these visions? id be very interested to hear.


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Offlinedeafpanda
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Re: My sceptical belief in "god" [Re: Moonshoe]
    #3593715 - 01/07/05 03:14 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

maybe you misunderstand me. what i meant is that these mystical experiences show that there are whole realms of experience that you have not yet explored.




Oh, okay, sorry. I did misunderstand.

As to the "visions", as you can guess, they were induced by shrooms ,the first time, at least. I'd just ordered a kilo of fresh cubensis from the net, cooked up about 5 or 6 fat ones in a saucepan, not knowing how much I'd taken, and downed the stew. It was probably about 35-40g fresh. Anyway, it came on almost immediately and I was soon fucked up beyond belief. I was having a horrible time, walking in circles was the only thing that took my mind off the nausea and dread that had taken hold of me. It seemed like there were many observers all around me, they gave me a "psychiatrist" vibe, in that they seemed to be analysing me. About an hour into the trip, I had the most wonderful puke ever.

After the puke I felt unbelievable. I did a few general shroom-induced things, such as play with my cat and stroke furniture for a while. At one point I stood up, stretched, and closed my eyes. At this point it gets hard to explain...it was just a sheer feeling of incredible elevation, similar to my first E but way more intense and more "free". I didn't realise I had a body for a few minutes, I felt 12,000 ft high and my field of vision felt like it spanned infinity. After a couple of minutes of this, I passed out from the intensity. What I've just said does absolutely no justice to the actual experience.

Ever since then, whenever I smoke some good weed, I have less intense (actually, sometimes just as intense) versions of the same experience. Which is nice. I've had a couple of other shroom trips which were variations on the same theme.


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Anonymous

Re: My sceptical belief in "god" [Re: Alan Stone]
    #3594091 - 01/07/05 04:49 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Then I saw a documentary on the effect of certain frequencies of EM radiation on the brain. They produced exactly the same kind of experience I had.

This doesn't negate the authenticity of any such experience. This merely explains what causes the experience. Things that are "supernatural" or "mystical" to us could be explained in scientific terms if we knew the process.

Science and spirituality are one and the same. To take one and forsake the other is ignorance. They seem separate at our level of duality but at higher levels of knowledge they merge into one. As a matter of fact, at our current level of scientific knowledge they're already slightly merged. Just consider the example of showing a television to a native tribesman who's never seen a manmade electrical device before. What is mystical to one person is a scientific process to another.

If we had the proper understanding, we would be able to explain the make-up of the soul and the process of incarnation just as we're able to explain the make-up of matter and other physical phenomenon.


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Invisibleuriahchase
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Re: My sceptical belief in "god" [Re: ]
    #3594438 - 01/07/05 06:05 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

god exist because nothing can not exist in thought. if something is in thought than it is. therefor god in thought does exist! god would not exist if god was not in an existing thought.


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Wanting to be someone else is a waste of the person you are -Kurt Cobain
       



     
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