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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: Are We Intelligent Beings? *DELETED* [Re: shadyy]
    #10904983 -

Post deleted by Lakefingers

Reason for deletion: .

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Re: Are We Intelligent Beings? [Re: Lakefingers]
    #10905759 -

lol too many pages for right now
:flyhigh:


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ga ga ga eets eets how you gone be mad on vacation?
MONICA COULDN'T TELL TIME UNTIL SHE WAS 13

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Re: Are We Intelligent Beings? [Re: Mufungo]
    #10909323 -

But there is a difference between a belief system which details something which does not require beliefs in order to occur, and a belief system which requires beliefs in order to be supposedly experienced. Stating "I don't believe" is a good basis upon which to see what exists beyond belief since it minimizes the importance of beliefs. Stating a lack of belief is a good basis for expressing "know-nothing", rather than accepting a belief in it's place, and increases the importance of the experience itself, rather than suggesting specific beliefs regarding the experience.

If you haven't found that state beneficial, there is the possibility that it has yet to be revealed in a beneficial way.


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rahz

comfort pleasure power love     truth awareness peace I am      I feel      I do     I love  I speak    I see    I know

To shrink a person's vocabulary is to shrink their capacity to think.

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Re: Are We Intelligent Beings? [Re: Rahz]
    #10909855 -

A belief system without beliefs, could you explain?

If a person isn't using any beliefs, none at all, to base their investigations into the unknown, then what directs the person's attention around the unknown environment? How do they know when and what to attend to and in what order? How do they know when, why, who, and how to ask questions? Trial and error?  If so, how do they know when a trial has begun or finished or when there's an error?


From my perspective, even when someone is investigating something new that they admit they don't know about (which they hold to some extent to be true and therefore believe), then even then they are guided by their beliefs. The beliefs might be related to "keeping an open mind" or "not looking for anything in particular" or "I'll stick to a scientific method" or something else that guides the discovery, but is nonetheless still based upon the person's previously learned experiences with which they've formed beliefs.

Going into states of mind where a person aspires to be present is not contrary to believing at the same time. And when I say they believe, they don't have to label anything as believing as such. Labeling a statement/thought/behaviour as a belief has its benefits insofar as allowing a person to go meta to their own thinking/behaving. Going meta to one's own or someone else's thinking/behaving can have a benefit of helping someone realise how their thinking/behaving has been influencing their experience. It provides a different perspective. It provides distance from their own thinking/behaving. And provides an opportunity to change. For this reason, the concept of 'belief' and 'believing' is useful and this is why I'm taking the time here to counter the nonsense that "believing/belief is bad".


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Re: Are We Intelligent Beings? [Re: Jethro Tull]
    #10913263 -

Yes.

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Re: Are We Intelligent Beings? [Re: Mufungo]
    #10917105 -

Quote:
If a person isn't using any beliefs, none at all, to base their investigations into the unknown, then what directs the person's attention around the unknown environment?

The investigation isn't into the unknown, but rather into the truth of what actually is known in the present moment, irrespective of any belief. It is only unknown to the logical mind which wants to treat the self as an object, because the mind works with objects of awareness, not awareness itself.

How do they know when and what to attend to and in what order?

To awareness, to that which exists beyond the task of attending to a thing, that which exists right now, and that which existed before doubts, hopes, fears, faiths, belief systems, thoughts and opinions.

How do they know when, why, who, and how to ask questions? Trial and error? If so, how do they know when a trial has begun or finished or when there's an error?

It seems most all of life is a matter of trial and error. Lots of things to deal with, but what is being suggested by having no belief is to also put the questions, trials, errors and other mental agitations aside, and see what else is there to experience.


What I describe isn't a belief system with no beliefs, but rather, a belief system which encourages seeing what is independent of beliefs, beyond their realm of influence. I agree that the statement by itself could be worthless without some context. But there's always some context intended, it's just a matter of what it is.


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rahz

comfort pleasure power love     truth awareness peace I am      I feel      I do     I love  I speak    I see    I know

To shrink a person's vocabulary is to shrink their capacity to think.

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Re: Are We Intelligent Beings? [Re: Rahz]
    #10917938 -

Quote:
How do they know when and what to attend to and in what order?

To awareness, to that which exists beyond the task of attending to a thing, that which exists right now, and that which existed before doubts, hopes, fears, faiths, belief systems, thoughts and opinions.



So they are aware of that, then what? In this scenario my question presupposed that this person is doing something in the world (as most of us are). If they aren't doing anything with the information they perceive, but they are aware of the information and taking it all in, then what, could you describe how someone might make a sandwich in this state? Is it just obvious from the environment that a sandwich consists of slices of bread and fillings? Is it obvious from the environment where to get the ingredients from and how to put them all together?

It seems to me that someone would have to learn about sandwiches and how to make them before making one, but I'm hoping I can be proved wrong.

Quote:
How do they know when, why, who, and how to ask questions? Trial and error? If so, how do they know when a trial has begun or finished or when there's an error?

It seems most all of life is a matter of trial and error. Lots of things to deal with, but what is being suggested by having no belief is to also put the questions, trials, errors and other mental agitations aside, and see what else is there to experience.



True, but your answer isn't functional and although it may address "being in the world" it doesn't address "doing in the world" which is what we as humans do.

Quote:
What I describe isn't a belief system with no beliefs, but rather, a belief system which encourages seeing what is independent of beliefs, beyond their realm of influence. I agree that the statement by itself could be worthless without some context. But there's always some context intended, it's just a matter of what it is.


If there is a belief system which encourages seeing what is independent of beliefs and what is beyond their realm of influence, then paradoxically this belief system is the very thing that is influencing the person to look for something beyond the realm of influence of beliefs and therefore could be said to still be within the realm of influence of a system of beliefs.    ...but at least with a lucid understanding that what they think they are perceiving could be in part influenced by their beliefs.


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Edited by Mufungo (08/23/09 07:13 AM)

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Re: Are We Intelligent Beings? [Re: Ahimsa]
    #10918694 -

The overpopulation/starvation cycle has killed us many times in the past. 

We can do it again, or we can start to manage the whole world for the benefit of everyone. Right now, every country is working for their own local self-interest, and the way things are setup, they have to, to survive and compete.

People think we are so special and different from other animals, when the truth is; we are probably just living through another overpopulation/starvation cycle.

Page 143 of The Present (with religion)


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..and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.

DC at:  Oneness

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Re: Are We Intelligent Beings? [Re: Jethro Tull]
    #10923000 -

Quote:
So they are aware of that, then what?


I have already offered that the phrase isn't intended to suggest we should not breathe or walk... or make sandwiches. Doing is the realm of every thing. People are doing all day long. People think about things all day long, talk all day long about doing things, but many people are unsure of their selves. "To be, or not to be?" It is a curious question, but why does it even exist if everyone is already aware of that, and are then asking, then what?

Quote:
True, but your answer isn't functional and although it may address "being in the world" it doesn't address "doing in the world" which is what we as humans do.


Humans do what they do, but are they what they are? The answer may seem obvious, but to many it does not seem so. Who/what am I? I don't know who/what I am. And generally, the first thing that occurs is that they must do something in order to be. But if we already are what we are, what can we do to be?

Quote:
If there is a belief system which encourages seeing what is independent of beliefs and what is beyond their realm of influence, then paradoxically this belief system is the very thing that is influencing the person to look for something beyond the realm of influence of beliefs and therefore could be said to still be within the realm of influence of a system of beliefs.    ...but at least with a lucid understanding that what they think they are perceiving could be in part influenced by their beliefs.


It does seem to be a paradox, I have ceded that, but what is the context intended? What is the implication? What happens when a person who believes they must do something to be something, quit believing it?


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rahz

comfort pleasure power love     truth awareness peace I am      I feel      I do     I love  I speak    I see    I know

To shrink a person's vocabulary is to shrink their capacity to think.

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Re: Are We Intelligent Beings? [Re: Rahz]
    #10925440 -

Rahz said:
Quote:
If there is a belief system which encourages seeing what is independent of beliefs and what is beyond their realm of influence, then paradoxically this belief system is the very thing that is influencing the person to look for something beyond the realm of influence of beliefs and therefore could be said to still be within the realm of influence of a system of beliefs.    ...but at least with a lucid understanding that what they think they are perceiving could be in part influenced by their beliefs.


It does seem to be a paradox, I have ceded that, but what is the context intended? What is the implication? What happens when a person who believes they must do something to be something, quit believing it?


Not a paradox, a hypocrisy. Believing that we should not have beliefs is still a belief. The best way to disprove any philosophy is to prove its hypocrisy.

Nihilism is hypocrisy.

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Re: Are We Intelligent Beings? [Re: zen buddy]
    #10925639 -

In a literal sense yes, it would be hypocritical. But to me, it seems worthwhile to attempt to understand the context. Without context, everything must be taken in a literal sense, and nothing can be inferred. Assuming a phrase has no meaning because it's literal implication is false isn't exactly philosophical.


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rahz

comfort pleasure power love     truth awareness peace I am      I feel      I do     I love  I speak    I see    I know

To shrink a person's vocabulary is to shrink their capacity to think.

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Re: Are We Intelligent Beings? [Re: Rahz]
    #10925798 -

Rahz said:
Assuming a phrase has no meaning because it's literal implication is false isn't exactly philosophical.


I disagree. How should we understand a phrase if not literally?

One good thing about the nihilist approach is how people use it to deconstruct every other philosophy, which can only help us better understand current ideas, beliefs and understandings by forcing us to look at it from a different angle and rethink our philosophy. A challenging debate is healthy for any philosophy and the ability to understand the opposing arguments hypocrisy can help you better understand your own philosophy.

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Re: Are We Intelligent Beings? [Re: zen buddy]
    #10926191 -

Quote:
A challenging debate is healthy for any philosophy and the ability to understand the opposing arguments hypocrisy can help you better understand your own philosophy.


A phrase is generally understood literally at first, but there can be more to it. There is hipocracy in the literal translation for sure, but if the hipocracy of the matter is all that is considered, what is to be made of possible context? We can get to the context, or we can continue to explore the hipocritical nature of the phrase.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love     truth awareness peace I am      I feel      I do     I love  I speak    I see    I know

To shrink a person's vocabulary is to shrink their capacity to think.

Edited by Rahz (08/24/09 02:05 PM)

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Re: Are We Intelligent Beings? [Re: zen buddy]
    #10930282 -

zen buddy said:
Rahz said:
Quote:
If there is a belief system which encourages seeing what is independent of beliefs and what is beyond their realm of influence, then paradoxically this belief system is the very thing that is influencing the person to look for something beyond the realm of influence of beliefs and therefore could be said to still be within the realm of influence of a system of beliefs.    ...but at least with a lucid understanding that what they think they are perceiving could be in part influenced by their beliefs.


It does seem to be a paradox, I have ceded that, but what is the context intended? What is the implication? What happens when a person who believes they must do something to be something, quit believing it?


Not a paradox, a hypocrisy. Believing that we should not have beliefs is still a belief. The best way to disprove any philosophy is to prove its hypocrisy.


It depends on the perspective you take. I blurred two perspectives in my comments. On the one hand there is a person who has a belief system opening them up to information which is beyond the influence of belief; which on face value is a paradox. But if you believe that this process isn't possible because it is illogical then it possibly is hypocrisy (but hypocrisy is semantically loaded word that takes the person's motivations into consideration). But to take that perspective a person would have to believe that illogical things can't happen. I'm not saying it is necessarily either, cause I don't know with any certainty. I'm attempting to grasp all perspectives that I'm aware of.

I'm in another camp so to speak... I say that people can have beliefs and no beliefs at the same time. This might confuse people cause it might seem that I have been advocating for just belief/believing... but I haven't.

We have language and language allows syntactically and semantically for both belief and non-belief, so I believe I don't believe that we have to limit ourselves by sticking to just believing or not believing.. in other words, here I'm stepping outside of a limiting "either/or" perspective.


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Re: Are We Intelligent Beings? [Re: Mufungo]
    #10933033 -

You're right, not everyone is capable of understanding an obvious hypocrisy.

Debating philosophy would be a lot more productive if everyone involved had a good understanding of literal English (or whatever language being used).

This has nothing to do with semantics and everything to do with the literal meaning of the words we use. If you cannot express your idea literally, while making sense, your idea is not a valid one.

I guess it is possible for you to have an idea but you are unable to express it with words. Although I have not had this problem myself I'm willing to accept its possibility. Maybe what you are trying to say is valid but the way that you are trying to express it is incorrect.

If you want to express your thoughts or prove a point you should do this in a way that most accurately depicts your thoughts or ideas without contradicting yourself. If you cannot express your ideas without contradicting yourself then you must admit that your idea is hypocrisy and/or falsehood.

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Re: Are We Intelligent Beings? [Re: zen buddy]
    #10933092 -

Quote:
This has nothing to do with semantics and everything to do with the literal meaning of the words we use.


You know what semantics literally means don't you? 

What you consider to be a literal meaning is much more vague and ambiguous than what you have supposed here.. You might want to rethink your statements.


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Re: Are We Intelligent Beings? [Re: Mufungo]
    #10933369 -

and you might want to reread your own statements... or at least try to understand what I'm saying...

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Re: Are We Intelligent Beings? [Re: Mufungo]
    #10933459 -

No offense intended, we all communicate differently and I don't believe that anyone has perfected communication.

Mufungo said:
... I say that people can have beliefs and no beliefs at the same time...


To clarify, this is what I was talking about when I said it has nothing to do with semantics. It does not matter what definition you are using for the word belief, the above statement is literally impossible.

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Re: Are We Intelligent Beings? [Re: zen buddy]
    #10933577 -

Have you ever in your entire life contradicted yourself and not admitted your idea's hypocrisy and/or falsehood?

You say that you must admit your idea is hypocrisy and/or falsehood if you cannot express your ideas without contradicting yourself. What happens if you don't admit it?

Perhaps your suggestions might be suitable to machines. But when relating to people it's probably a bit too high an expectation, especially on these boards. Contradictions are a natural part of humanity. Often you won't be aware of a contradiction of thought until after you expressed it.


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Re: Are We Intelligent Beings? [Re: Mufungo]
    #10933624 -

If I realize that I contradicted myself I admit my mistake and I will either find a way to express myself without contradicting myself or I will admit that whatever I am trying to express has no basis in fact.

I don't think it is too much to ask that the expression of our ideas make sense.

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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